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With all those claims of weakness and need you have about Allah in the Bible , you contradict yourself here . And for the gazillion time , Allah entrusted the people of the book with the message and they altered it . It's not that he couldn't - exalted he is ! - precieve the message . It is all in his knowledge . And if you dare object , I'll remind you of you - or was it Burnlight - answering the issue of Jacob peace upon him - as you claim - FIGHTING with Allah and actually DEFEATING HIM with "It was in his planning and knowledge" .
Your original point... Which to which I replied ......I'm just not buying that... Sorry it makes little sense.... Which you seemed to take exception to.
Allow me to elaborate, although I feel I have in a previous answer .. I don't buy this scenario of yours as I do not see it is consistent with Gods nature of being omniscient.. How is it possible for God not to know His creation would fail to keep His message? If God ... As all knowing... Is aware mankind would fail then there is no point in entrusting mankind with any message at all. If you say this was for a test... Then for what reason? When the outcome is already known. The test of Jacob was God forcing Jacob to recognise himself.. Because until Jacob came to his own understanding of how he fit within Gods plan then God would not use Him for His purpose. There was a divine purpose to Gods testing of Jacob.. What purpose do you see God has in sending His message to people He knew would corrupt it?

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If that happened with other members on the forum , it is not my responsibility . Show me one , I say one instance where I don't go straight to the point . Where I don't state why I think your counter argument is wrong and rather repeat what you answered .
don't take it personally I did not say it was your responsibility. Don't see negativity where none was meant.


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Here goes the same fallacy . We're not discussing evidence of corruption . I'm stating that Islam says there is corruption . You on the other hand say "No , your belief that your belief is there is corruption is wrong" . That's completely unrelated and a subject for another time . That's what I've been repeating over and over for months . Do you see now why it's frustrating ? I say there is corruption and you escape it with "Quran contradicts the previous message and thus it's wrong" and you COMPLETELY ignore that I JUST stated the message isn't the original one ! THAT'S where you're going astray from the critical point .
Can I be clear on this ..? When you say Islam says.. Do you refer to what the Quran says or is it muslims who say this based on the deliberations of Muslim scholars? Because when I read the Quran... Without the benefit of a Muslim scholar to interpret it for me.. The suras muslims usually quote in support of the corruption issue are not conclusive that it's the actual Torah but some parts misrepresented by some Jews. Which really is not the same thing at all. As you have no proof except what you see in the Quran that the Previous message is not the same as we now have then I don't see how you can expect a non Muslim to believe that there was ever a different Torah or a different Gospel to what we have now. Seeing as manuscript evidence for the Bible dates to well before the time of Mohammed and matches up with what we have today. How do you prove to me that the Torah is not the same as the Jews have today.. Or the Gospels for that matter? You say because the Quran tells you so. This you take on faith. This is your faith that this is so.. The Quran is your proof... It is not mine.


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Pandora , I'm still holding my nerves . Don't get me to snap . You're here talking to an imaginary person when you state a rule we don't agree on that says "Quran says the messages of the people of the book are divine and thus when it says they are not it is contradicting" . You simply ignore what we say day in day out : The messages Allah sent were altered by the people of the book but there is truth remaining in them which match Quran . Proving the Bible to be corrupt won't make a problem for anyone except Jews and Christians .
I certainly do not wish to try your patience to the limit .. If you wish you can end dialogue.. No problem. As muslim attempts to prove the Bible in error is also no problem .. For Christians and very probably for Jews also. We know you have nothing. Personally I don't think your prophet ever viewed the previous scriptures in the way muslims today do, I feel it's centuries of Muslim scholars who realise the Quran does not confirm the previous scriptures thus leaving a dilemma for the Quran to be truth the Bible has to be false.. There follows a lifelong quest to tear down Gods word in the Bible through any means possible. The only way the Gods original message and purpose has been changed is by muslims.


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Since I believe in the proof of Islam , I take this by faith . That's why I'll believe that this statement of yours is false . Considering how many times I discover that what I believed with faith is true , I'll do the same here . Again , you're distracting the actual topic . Islam says the people of the book altered the message . End of the story . If you want to debate about wither than is true or not then you have this forum and many others .
its refreshing to see you take something by faith.. This on the method of transmission of the Torah.. I really don't know how some Jews in one locality could have caused the ORIGINAL Torah to be changed. If the thirteenth scroll was so guarded as insurance of accuracy I cannot see how it could be done..

***The great success of Jewish tradition is the meticulous transmission of the Torah text. But actually how accurate is it?
How do we know that the Torah we have today is the same text given on Mount Sinai?


The Torah was originally dictated from God to Moses, letter for letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us:


Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would “testify” against him.)


How were the new scrolls verified? An authentic “proof text” was always kept in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, against which all other scrolls would be checked. Following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the Sages would periodically perform global checks to weed out any scribal errors.


WRITING A TORAH SCROLL
To eliminate any chance of human error, the Talmud enumerates more than 20 factors mandatory for a Torah scroll to be considered “kosher.” This is the Torah’s built-in security system. Should any one of these factors be lacking, it does not possess the sanctity of a Torah scroll, and is not to be used for a public Torah reading.


The meticulous process of hand-copying a scroll takes about 2,000 hours (a full-time job for one year). Throughout the centuries, Jewish scribes have adhered to the following guidelines:


A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is added.
A Torah Scroll is disqualified if even a single letter is deleted.
The scribe must be a learned, pious Jew, who has undergone special training and certification.
All materials (parchment, ink, quill) must conform to strict specifications, and be prepared specifically for the purpose of writing a Torah Scroll.
The scribe may not write even one letter into a Torah Scroll by heart. Rather, he must have a second, kosher scroll opened before him at all times.
The scribe must pronounce every word out loud before copying it from the correct text.
Every letter must have sufficient white space surrounding it. If one letter touched another in any spot, it invalidates the entire scroll.
If a single letter was so marred that it cannot be read at all, or resembles another letter (whether the defect is in the writing, or is due to a hole, tear or smudge), this invalidates the entire scroll. Each letter must be sufficiently legible so that even an ordinary schoolchild could distinguish it from other, similar letters.
The scribe must put precise space between words, so that one word will not look like two words, or two words look like one word.
The scribe must not alter the design of the sections, and must conform to particular line-lengths and paragraph configurations.
A Torah Scroll in which any mistake has been found cannot be used, and a decision regarding its restoration must be made within 30 days, or it must be buried.***

I hope I have not left anything unanswered from your original post. I don't expect the answers will be in any way satisfactory.. But I tried my best.. If my best is not good enough.. Well not much I can do about it.


Peace unto you.