The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

[pandora]

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And all of that centres around this part of my reply which you simply ignored :

What is wrong with you people???? What part of ..... I'll have to get back to the rest of your post another time.... Did you not understand! As I have tried to explain before.. The device I use does not make it easy to reply to multiple points when the post in question is rather long..constantly having to scroll up and down faffing about with quotes etc.. It's possible to miss a point. Given that I have to wait until a moderator passes my post as suitable...and I am not allowed to edit my posts for errors ..then I do not know if I have missed anything until it's posted on the forum. I do not appreciate being pounced on and being accused of ignoring points. I now see in order of your replies I missed this bit.. Not intentional.. And I did not ignore it. I did not realise I had overlooked it. Before I even think of addressing your above post #26. I shall continue with the points raised not yet addressed by myself for fear of being accused of deliberately avoiding the matter....In continuation....

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You're seriously making a number of fallacies here and there . As for this sentence of yours , what did you depend on to belief it ? Isn't that logic and sense ? You believe it's logical to rely on faith and abandon logic . Does that make sensee ? This statement crumbles on itself and implodes . And when you say that logic can be disproved , you're saying that logic can be disproved by logic and that's simply absurd ! When I say logic I don't mean science . Logic is about the possible and impossible logically - too much "logic" thus far - . For instance , it is simply impossible , no matter what "science" might say and no matter when or where we are for 1+1 to be equal of 3 . Bring Enistein , Newton , and every single scientest and non scientest soul out there and they can never disprove this for eternity . Saying basic logic can be disproved is a crime against intellect .

Logic and Faith... The very notion of "faith versus reason.. Or logic" is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to logic....biblical faith and reason go well together. However, many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses. This is the biblical definition of faith... Whenever we have confidence in something that we cannot see, hear, taste, smell, or touch, we are acting upon a type of faith. All people have faith, even if it is not a saving faith in God.
People believe in laws of logic. Yet, laws of logic are not material. They are abstract and cannot be experienced by the senses. We can write down a law of logic such as the law of non-contradiction (It is impossible to have A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship.) but the sentence is only a physical representation of the law, not the law itself. When people use laws of logic, they have confidence in something they cannot actually observe with the senses... this is a type of faith. When we have confidence that the universe will operate in the future as it has in the past, we are acting on faith.. we all presume that gravity will work the same next Friday as it does today. But no one has actually observed the future. So we all believe in something that goes beyond sensory experience. From a Christian perspective, this is a very reasonable belief. God (who is beyond time) has promised us that He will uphold the universe in a consistent way. So we have a good reason for our faith in the uniformity of nature. Christian faith is not a "blind faith." It is a faith that is rationally defensible. It is logical and self-consistent. It can make sense of what we experience in the world. We don't rely on faith at the expense of logic and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was trying to get across that we don't "demand" that evidence for our faith in God needs always to conform to mans logical laws and ideas. The Bible has many miracles recorded.. By today's logical reasoning many would choose to belief they did not happen because they were against the laws of logic as we know them. I have faith that God operates outside our notions and understanding and so have no problem accepting them as proof of God. I guess I had in mind those muslims that look to scientific facts found in the Quran as proof of its divinity.. I should have put that in the context of my post. I did not.. My bad. That's is a dangerous use of logic.. Because it's quite likely one day someone will come along and logically disprove a claim.. And where does that leave you.. In regards to your mathematical equation which I know some people use to explain the trinity.. 1+1+1=1 well I never see the point to that.. How can one measure the infinite by the finite? Surely if the infinite is a creation how can it be applied to explain the Creator? I will have to think on that one..

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Then what are you here for ? If you don't desire to argue with evidence and discuss it then what's the point ? And don't change the subject into "You are doing it too so I won't stop" . I'm talking about signs , narrations , and a whole body of Muslims probably reaching a number of billions through history . All of that says that according to Islam , the Bible is altered . You're not saying "No , you're wrong , the Bible isn't altered" . You're saying that our religion doesn't say it is ! And believe me , repeating it over and over and OVER gets extremely frustrating . Not to mention that you base your objections on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING . If we were to discuss it , you'd just say "You don't have proof it is corrupted" . And that's a huge fallacy . We're not discussing the evidence of corruption . I'm simply telling you something as simple as that Islam says there is corruption . Another thing you might say is "Why would God let the message be altered" and that's just the same as the last fallacy . I'll be frank and say that you're solely depending on emotions here and not any sort of "inconsistencies" you claim exist . What's hilarious is that you don't show a single one of those .

What are you here for? You ask.. Indeed I am beginning to wonder..I'm not sure what you expect of me here.. As a Christian I can only speak from my perspective. Your signs are truth to you.. But should I accept them on the basis that you and other muslims (number immaterial) say they are truth? When I say you are wrong to believe the Bible is corrupted I mean as a Christian I don't see as a Christian that the verses I have thus far been shown conclusively prove that the Torah was changed.. But that some Jews .. Changed some scripture.. For the own ends. Well, I don't see this as news, as Prophet Jeremiah accused the Jews of the very same thing! It is not proof that the Torah in its original state was changed. I find it strange you don't find it odd that God could not or chose not to protect His previous word from change ..thereby needing to send another message. It seems to me such a stand goes against Gods nature of being omniscient. I mean God would know the message would be changed why bother with the prophets why not cut to the chase and just send Mohammed and we'd all be Muslim. For some kind of test? To what purpose..?

I do not feel able to offer criticism on the inconsistencies in the Quran. I do not wish to cause offence, I know I am not allowed to criticise Islam on this forum. Suffice to say if I did not see the inconsistencies I would have no issue.. I do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH and I do not believe Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet any more than I believe Joseph Smith was the last prophet ... Based on the Bible, and the revelations of the prophets therein I don't see I can come to any other conclusion... Evidence I have been presented with so far has not changed my view. Let's face it they both can't be true.. We can only each decide which feels right for us.

Anyway run out of time... Tempus fugit once again.

peace.

to be continued....

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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I do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH and I do not believe Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet

Can you deny the fact that prophet Muhammad - as an arab muslim & through his ancestor Ishmael - was blessed by YHWH ???

[pandora]

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Can you deny the fact that prophet Muhammad - as an arab muslim & through his ancestor Ishmael - was blessed by YHWH ???

Why are you hijacking this thread? What has this to do with the subject? I have answered this before on the other thread... Maybe you did not read it. I do NOT deny that prophet Mohammed as an Arab was blessed by YHWH.. As all Arabs would be so blessed. I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact? Many peoples were blessed by YHWH... From prophets, Kings and nations. If you see some special connection here... I confess I do not. BTW.. Any evidence you may wish to bring in support of your claim of prophet Mohammed's ancestry would maybe better served by a new thread.. Your choice of course.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact?

Peace unto you.

This has been already discussed and proven here :

http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200780.html

you could also find the complete tree here :

http://majesticislam.wordpress.com/2...t-muhammed-as/

and here:

http://www.rasulallah.info/id27.html

Also some more chrsitian info :

http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/arabs.htm

http://www.nabataea.net/kedar.html

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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I do NOT deny that prophet Mohammed as an Arab was blessed by YHWH.. As all Arabs would be so blessed

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Why are you hijacking this thread?

i'm not hijacking the thread !

you are saying :

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i do not believe the Quran is a divine revelation from YHWH

you think YHWH is blessing a false prophet ????

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I question weather prophet Mohammed was indeed an ancestor of Ishmael, what proof do you have of this fact?

your bible dictionary !




http://bluehost.levendwater.org/book...ible/index.htm


Islam And Its Founder
J. W. H. Stobart


page 36



page 21




page 27




https://archive.org/details/islamitsfounder00stob


Thanks to my brother Mohammed .

peace .