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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
could you explain please what meaning do you take between "writings" and "interpretation"? How you define what is meant by these words?
Writting meaning the bible the scripture, interpritation meaning the meaning of the passages in the bible not the literal writting


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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
I was simply trying to give you a greater perspective, in the hope it would make things clearer. But I see you are a very literal person who maybe does not think "outside the box" that much.
It had nothing to do with our discussion , thats why it confused me , but my mistake then


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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
I was asking you a question here.. I know you like to avoid my questions whenever you can. I highlighted the question.. To make it easier to see. Would you like to answer it?
Already answered but you chose to ignore :

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Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989

As for what you mentioned of testifying :

Again this is the writers view and the bible never said that the ark would testify against its !!!

Did it testify against the sumeritans or the writers of the dead sea scroll ???




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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
i did not accuse you of anything. I said you did not use the whole article, and so missed out some of the context.... The article in its entirety gives references to other verses to give greater context making it clearer to understand. The highlighted coloured section is what you used from Pulpit.


How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Verse 8. - How do ye say, We are wise? Jeremiah is evidently addressing the priests and the prophets, whom he so constantly described as among the chief causes of Judah's ruin (comp. Ver. 10; Jeremiah 2:8, 26; Jeremiah 4:9; Jeremiah 5:31), and who, in Isaiah's day, regarded it as an unwarrantable assumption on the part of that prophet to pretend to instruct them in their duty (Isaiah 28:9). The law of the Lord is with us. "With us;" i.e. in our hands and mouths. (comp. Psalm 1:16). The word torah, commonly rendered" Law," is ambiguous, and a difference of opinion as to the meaning of this verse is inevitable. Some think these self-styled "wise" men reject Jeremiah's counsels on the ground that they already have the divinely given Law in a written form (comp. Romans 2:17-20), and that the Divine revelation is complete. Others that torah here, as often elsewhere in the prophets (e.g. Isaiah 1:10; Isaiah 8:16; Isaiah 42:4), simply means "instruction," or "direction," and describes the authoritative counsel given orally by the priests (Deuteronomy 17:11) and prophets to those who consulted them on points of ritual and practice respectively. The usage of Jeremiah himself favors the latter view (see Jeremiah 2:8; Jeremiah 18:18; and especially Jeremiah 26:4, 5, where "to walk in my Torah" is parallel to "to hearken to the words of my servants the prophets." The context equally points in this direction. The most natural interpretation, then, is this: The opponents of Jeremiah bade him keep his exhortations to himself, seeing that they themselves were wise and the divinely appointed teachers of the people. To this Jeremiah replies, not (as the Authorized Version renders) Lo, certainly in vain made he it, etc.; but, Yea, behold I for a lie hath it wrought - the lying pen of the scribes (so Authorized Version, margin). Soferim (scribes) is the term proper to all those who practiced the art of writing (sefer); it included, therefore, presumably at least, most, if not all, of the priests and prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. There are indications enough that the Hebrew literature was not entirely confined to those whom we look up to as the inspired writers, and it is perfectly credible that the formalist priests and false prophets should have availed themselves of the pen as a means of giving greater currency to their teaching. Jeremiah warns his hearers to distrust a literature which is in the set-vice of false religious principles - a warning which prophets in the wider sense of the term ('The Liberty of Prophesyings') still have but too much occasion to repeat, tit is right, however, to mention another grammatically possible rendering, which is adopted by those who suppose torah in the preceding clause to mean the Mosaic Law: "Yea, behold, the lying pen of the scribes hath made (it) into a lie;" i.e. the professional interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their groundless comments and inferences, made the Scriptures (especially the noblest part, the Law) into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the Divine will and teaching. The objections to this are:

(1) the necessity of supplying an object to the verb - the object would hardly have been omitted where its emission renders the meaning of the clause so doubtful;
(2) that this view attributes to the word soferim a meaning which only became prevalent in the time of Ezra (comp. Ezra 7:6, 11).]
Explanation of the highlited (red) sentences

The objection was not to the idea that the manipulation to the torah was to its writting rather to the idea that the meaning of the word torah in the context meant the Mosiac law , the passage states this idea as an alternative view depicted by the word However.
The word litteriture in the first suggestion actually refers to literal writtings

Sorry pandora but this actually proves my point, this was the reason why I did not include it because it already proves my point NOT yours

[QUOTE=pandora]


[QUOTE]As for what you mentioned of testifying :

Again this is the writers view and the bible never said that the ark would testify against its !!!

Did it testify against the sumeritans or the writers of the dead sea scroll ???
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The Ark is believed to contain the Tablets of Stone on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed... And among other things the first Torah scroll as written by Moses.. Which is what we have been talking about.. So this Torah scroll testifies to the truth of all other copies made. What proof do you have of the claim you make in regards to this Torah Scroll being corrupted by the lying scribes?
You are using circular fallacy !!!

This was an answer to this part of your statement yet you used it and rephrased your response !!!!

I will repeat my answer and question again :

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Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989
Again this is the writers view and the bible never said that the ark would testify against its !!!

Did it testify against the sumeritans or the writers of the dead sea scroll ???
This brings up a second question ?

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
What is your proof that the current torah is the same as the one in the ark!!??
Did I even say it was given to him ???? NO pandora I did not

Do not put words on my mouth this is what I said :

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora

I already discussed many times , in short Jesus had the original Torah and gospel with him
There is a difference between had and given so do not put words on my mouth

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
Really this is your belief. The Torah was not "given" to Jesus...As I said before Jesus did not bring a message .. HE was the message. There is no proof in existence of any "Gospel" other than what we have today contained in the New Testament. If there had been another Gospel as given to Jesus there would surely be some shred of evidence in support of this fact.
LOL there already is . The wide scholarly view is that the anonamous writer of Mark is supposed to have copied from a certain gospel , this gospel is called the Q gospel . I cannot go into much detail but you can do some research about it

By the way there are many gospels that were written in the first 4 centuries of the bible : the gospel of james, the gospel of judas , the gospel of Mary magdalene, the apocalyptic gospel of peter , the infancy gospels in its multitude , ......etc

Your statement must be rephraised to there were no other gospels in the first 70-90 years of christianity

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
I beg your pardon? What's this got to do with the point in hand??
This was an honest response to what you said here :

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
You have consistently demonstrated IMHO a lack of knowledge in Christianity yet you behave as if you're some kind of expert.
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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
lol... Keeping up with what? Your confusing posts? I confess even with the level of repetition your point is not always clear.
LOL are you confusing websites !!!! get back to reality .



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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
Yep... They do.
Nope they don't . Or else show where they do agree with the writer of the article

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
its there in the explanations!!! Maybe it is not possible for your eyes to see this.
Then show it to me , everything you say now are just claims . Quote it to me if you think so and not just avoiding my demand of proof !!! Second time you avoid such demand



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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
****The christian commentray sources which I have cited are just two examples of CHRISTIAN INTERPRITATION , which all have the same opinion about the passage , the fact that a christian author of an article ON A MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE website would defer shows either a personal opinion to avoid admitting what the muslim claim or just simply being dishonest !!!!


So again you are trying to avoid the bias in the article you copied and pasted by holding on to the technicality that all articles and books are bias!!!!!****

from this you said it appeared to me that you were making a comparison with my remark on the author bias in articles that I was dishonestly attempting to defer opinion rather agree with you. If I am mistaken in this assumption, then please accept my sincere apology.
Appology accepted since my remark was on the author not you

I was simply explaining my opinion on the article and its writer

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Quote Originally Posted by pandora
However, my personal honesty and integrity will not allow myself to agree with something that you say or any scholarly article "Christian" or otherwise, if I do not see the truth in it.
What it seems to me you are saying is that you will not accept any proof of my claims unless it agrees with your assumptions, even if they were the concensus of christian scholars !!!!!! If this indeed is the situation then you choose your own feelings and convictions over the truth and I think this is were the debate in this thread ends!!!


BTW You did not answer what was written on Gill's exposition

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Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989
It is interesting that you are accusing me of misinterpriting pulpit while I gave you all of what pulpit said , yet you still did not answer and claimed his opinion here is just circumstantial differentiation ; a simple difference in the opinion which is wrong , added to what Gill said here :

Lo, certainly ... - Rather, Verily, lo! the lying pen "of the scribes" hath made it - the Law - into a lie. The mention of "scribes" in this place is a crucial point in the argument whether or not the Pentateuch or Torah is the old law-book of the Jews, or a fabrication which gradually grew up, but was not received as authoritative until after the return from the captivity. It is not until the time of Josiah
2 Chronicles 34:13
that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah.
The Torah must have existed in writing before
there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage.
What the scribes turned into a lie was that Law of which they had just boasted that they were the possessors
. Moreover, the scribes undeniably became possessed of preponderating influence during the exile: and on the return from Babylon were powerful enough to prevent the restoration of the kingly office

Barne's Notes on the bible
Although you actually quoted it you never really addressed it