When was this sura revealed and what is the context?

For me.. I do not need proof that needs to conform to mans puny logical understanding to understand God as God has revealed Himself to me in Christianity. I take it on faith that God is indeed great, Holy, Merciful, Just, Loving and every other attribute we apply to God in our attempt to understand Gods divine nature. I just accept that nothing is impossible with God. It's usually muslims demanding this logical evidence of Christianity.. Why is that? If many muslims don't require the same level of proof for the Quran... But take its truth on faith much as we do. ~~~~ hold the front page here.. I think that maybe some kind of agreement between us here and possible common ground tread!!! ;)

Yes, it is your belief and you accept without question what the Quran claims about Christianity and Judaism. Even when Christians point out that we do not and never have believed that God is one of three.. The Jews never claimed Ezra as the son of God.. If this sura is the word of Allah? Why does it not make it clear that this can only have referred to a small minority of Jews and Christians and not all? Now you may well say that scholars have interpreted the meaning that it is not meant to be taken literally.. But if it is taken as read then the meaning looks clear to me. It is tarring all Jews and Christians with the same brush and that leads misunderstandings.

The Jews call Ezra a son of God, and the Christians call the Christ a son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. May Allah destroy them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Quran 9:30)


Thank you.

Misconceptions as above for one.. I'm not trying to impose anything on you.. I was asking for proof of this claim, which really I don't think is unreasonable. Because from where I stand the only way the Quran can be true is if the Bible is false. In my heart I know the Bible is not false so as the ones making the accusations surely asking for proof from Muslim who make such claims is a legitimate request. Besides a few people possibly making changes is not the same as the whole message being changed. I already explained why this would be impossible to do. The Torah was not just one book kept in one place.. But copies of the same existed in every community.. If changes were made to one by some unscrupulous person then it would soon be detected.

Thank you for your understanding. Your spelling ability looks fine to me.

Thank you for your understanding, The Christ, Jesus or Messiah is acceptable... Or even Yeshua.

I feel this way about the Bible.. :)

I've addressed this very point on another thread. To sum up in order for there to be a copy of something there has to be an original. If the copy was made from the original autograph then it could not have been lost at that time. Besides I find the notion that someone would be so careless with something they regarded as the divine message of God as to lose it somewhere a bit far fetched.

Doesn't mean he didn't either.. I just said the possibility exists.

False by default . It doesn't affect us if the people of the book altered the message . Islam states that these people were entrusted with their books and they failed at that and thus there's no room for you to say Allah - exalted he is - couldn't preserve the message . It happened with his knowledge .

And again , believing the Bible is corrupted differs from discussing the evidence for it .

Already addressed and it's still out of question .

Their sayings is based on nothing but emotional opinions and ignorance of the numerous sources saying he was illiterate . Pointless .

3 seconds memory ?

And all of that is unrelated to the subject . I told you and I tell you again , you have an issue of throwing whatever negative allegations you have about Islam . You'd probaby do that even if I was talking about quantom physics . That's no method of arguing . That's - and I already explained - red herring , a fallacy used to distract the other side with the biggest possible number of claims after claims .

Every single line .

That's it ! What on Earth is wrong with you !? I told you before that you have until one of us dies to bring me ONE evidence of us associating partners with Allah . In what world is this line associating a partner ?! :

"I testify that there is no deity worth of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is his servant and messenger"

SERVANT AND MESSENGER ! Case closed .

Well in my honest opinion , your "honest" opinion isn't worth a penny since it's based on ignorance , emotions , and personal preference . And for the record , "U mad" meant "U angry ?" and not "U insane ?" .

!!

Does it need a context ? It's just stating a fact . And the signs mentioning this are numerous that it became a given among us .

69:41 And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. 42 Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. 43 [It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, 45 We would have seized him by the right hand; 46 Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

It depends on what you mean by evidence . For example - not you , just an example - we wouldn't believe a message saying that a god exists and doesn't exist . What on Earth is that ?! There are basic self evident facts "Badiihyyat" like that 1+1=2 and that everything caused has a cause . That's one of the standards to know a true message from a false one . Also , keep in mind that aside from Muslims , others don't actually believe you had a true message revealed to you (Again , we believe the message was altered) . How will you convince them ? With love and faith ? That's the point . One needs a reason to believe that you have the right religion . Just stating "Jesus is the truth" won't cut it !

I doubt it . We are convinced with evidence , THEN we hold faith for anything this religion of evidence tells . In short , we are convinced with the fact that there can't be a partner with the creator of the universe , that he's all powerful , all knowledgeable , all wise , and so on . In addition , we're convinced with the fact that the prophet peace upon him was a true messenger . And if we keep going , we won't end this subject soon . The point is , we don't base our belief on blind faith . Are you implying that you do ? Because you said yourself that it is not .

Well , one can argue that all 3 are one is actually another way to say they are three different entities . And I wish I had an English link for the topic of Jews and Ezra but I believe there's a quote in English on this one :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t188538.html

And Quran doesn't state all the Jews said that or all Christians said it and thus there's no point in asking why it didn't mention it's a minority . Also , they are two signs one after another .

5:72 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. 73 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

And thus it calls anyone who says any of these disbelievers of Islam .

No , it is literal . And there's still no issue as you honestly took it wrongly .

Now hang on a second , where did "faith" go all of a sudden ? Not that I don't believe there is proof for it .

Allah knows best .

Now let's suppose I said "Roses are red and violets are blue" , do I need a "context" so it's not a meaningless statement ?! The signs are stating that Quran is revealed to prophet Muhammad peace upon him from Allah . Simple as that . I don't see why you would complicate it .

And ? Isn't that "faith" ?

The point is : On what basis do you take the Bible - in its current state - as the truth ?

We worship Allah on three basis :
1 - Love 2 - Hope of salvation 3 - Fear of his might .
All three are necessary .

That would require a whole debate .

You haven't seen him yourself . So again , on what basis do you believe ?

Anyone who says Allah is one of three , Christians or not , wither they admit it or not , go under this label . And yes , trinity exists in other than Christianity .

To be frank , that's using double standards . You ask us proof of our belief - not that there isn't , but it's for another time - and at the same time you make the statement that faith needs no proof .

I believe I made myself clear thus far , so I leave any further explanation to someone else . It's getting busy for me . I might drop by if I see it's necessary .

Allah knows best .

I'm not complicating anything. I don't understand why you are being so sensitive about it.. Deflecting the point with Roses of red and blue???

Maybe so.. Is it blind faith if one ignores evidences to the contrary?

on the basis of that still small voice God through His Spirit brings to me the understanding of His truth, His love, His mercy and His Word... Jesus. It's called relationship.

I respect that as it is your belief.

Let me know if and when you have the time. :)

It would be useless trying to explain to a non believer what relationship a Christian has with The Lord Jesus. Basically if I ask He answers.. A fellow Christian would know exactly.

You would never find a Christian that would ever say God is one of three... Because God is one. So this can only be a misconception in the Quran. The trinity as found within Christianity is nothing like any other "trinity" in other religions. You can take that to the bank.. :)

lets be clear.. Faith itself does not require proof.. In fact I don't believe it is possible to prove or disprove faith with any kind of proof. That's not what I was asking.. Our respective "faith" is untouchable. The proof I asked for was the proof muslims claim to have about the Bible. I don't ask for proof of the Quran's accuracy because for many reasons I have rejected it for what it claims to be. What proof could you bring to change my mind?? I'm not sure you could. The Quran is truth for you but not for me.. You don't need to prove it to me. The Bible is truth to me but YOU say it is unreliable and is corrupt.. Am I being therefore unreasonable to ask to see proof of such a claim?? Obviously muslims seem to think I am.. Or are you prevaricating for the fact your proof is lacking..