Simply put , they were ordered to do that as a sign of respect to mankind .

Seriosuly Pandora , if you just have read this sign , you wouldn't have needed to ask ! :

18:50 And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

And the order given to the angels to prostrate to Adam peace upon him included them and whoever is with them , like when the principle of a school tells the teachers to stand for the arrival of the minister , just becaus he said "teachers" doesn't mean others like the janitor , electrician , or anyone else are not included . So basically , in Islam , there isn't a thing called "fallen angel" . And I did provide you the sign saying angels never disobey Allah .

I do realize angels have supernatural powers to humans , what does that have to do with anything ? If strength or power is what defines who's better than who , a sinner with power is better than a weak worshiper and that's false by default . Again , the point is : Angels were created pure and obident never disobeying Allah in his orders , animals were created with mere instincts , and although they display ethical actions like sacrifise for the children , they are mindless unlike humans , humans however have both mind and instincts/desires , they are tested to fight their desires in the forbidden - not all desires are forbidden or the way thy are achieved - and seek the true path shown to them by the prophets Allah sent , if they succeed , they are at a higher place than angels because angels can't disobey to begin with , and if they fail , they are below animals because they are mindless to begin with .

And yes , animals have souls .

And that's the case . It wasn't worship to Adam peace upon him but a sign of respect .

Allah knows best .

I'm sorry... but which ever way you cut it the word used is "prostration"not bow. When you prostrate you do so in worship as do I or anyone else. You do not prostrate to someone as a sign of respect. There is a huge difference.

ah well... I was forgetting the jinn.. Jinn are never mentioned in the Bible so I don't know what they are meant to be.. We don't have an equivalent being to jinn. Why do you think God neglected to tell his people of these jinn? Especially as they seemingly hold such sway of power for evil, which if satan is of their number must be so. We have a clear and simple message.. God created angels ...satan disobeyed God and so became a fallen angel along with those of the host that followed him. They were expelled from paradise and their mission is to turn people from the path God has chosen for their salvation. Maybe the fallen angels could be considered demons.. Which we know are very real. The fact that Jesus had power over demons and they knew and feared Him is a pointer to His divinity. Could the jinn be considered the same as demons? The jinn sound a convenience to cover for the fact that although The Quran states angels obey Allah in all things there also exists another power to tempt mankind into sin etc so if angels can't disobey then something else has to take their place.. Jinn.

It has nothing to do with strength or power as meaning some kind of superiority when it comes to mankind. Comparing mankind with angels is not appropriate. It's starting to look that we view angels differently also. Maybe that's a topic for another thread. The Bible has a clearly defined role for angels and they are different in rank but if they are part of the heavenly host then they all with single purpose act according to the will of God. I'm not sure how a person who could be considered the lowest of humans through his/her actions be considered lower than an animal. Because God created man higher than the animals, to have dominion over the animals.. So it does not follow that a "mindless" human is somehow an animal or indeed lower than animal. A human is a human regardless of intellect or ability.

There are different schools of thought regarding weather or not animals have souls in the same way we do. If reading the Bible on the subject I would say no, animals do not have souls as mankind does. Although they are blessed with a spirit seeing as they are sentient beings and have a limited intelligence. However, although mankind were at first created vegetarian after the Noahic Covenant (I did a thread on the Covenants should you wish to look it up) God said..

~~"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." ~~(Genesis 9:3)

so would God allow us to kill and eat a being with a soul? If the soul was the same in essence as a human soul. I don't think so, as killing another human is forbidden and considered a sin but God gives His blessing for mankind to kill and eat animals. In the Old Testament God includes what animals are allowed to be offered as a sacrifice for the covering of sin... we do not see the sacrifice of dogs, cats, horses, mules or donkeys in the Bible. We can see that these animals are the ones that enjoy the closest relationship with man.. As in they have been useful in aiding mankind in work situations or companionship as pets. Dogs are mentioned many times in Scripture but cats are not... It could be they were considered the favourite pets in Egypt and were associated with pagan religion.

However, if an animal has a spirit of sorts.. And I think it must do.. Then that does not mean that animals wouldn't exist in paradise for lack of a soul. As all things are possible with God if an animal means much to a human.. Like a beloved pet or something ... who knows they could be reunited at some level after death.

With all due respect, what you say and what I observe do not appear to line up.

Impossible? Not for the spiritual man. He judges all things, yet he is not judged of any man. True Biblical Christians do not ask the pope for their spiritual direction. We don't depend on man at all. If anything we test the pope, priests and pastors to see if what they share lines up with Scripture. We test the spirit of what we hear from our leaders. Besides, the pope is Catholic. I feel true Catholicism more lines up with Islam than it does with true Biblical Christianity.
Yes, it is belief based on Scripture and God's word.
Humans cannot tell truth from error when they are caught in the bowels of deep religious deception. Humans can act like animals, but they are never below them. Angels are created with free will just as we are, and they are greater in position, function and office for now, but the redeemed of God will judge angels. Angels don't have to struggle to be obedient to God, because they are in their glorified state, we aren't; therefore, we do, because we inherited a tendency to sin from our father Adam. We can have victory over sin through the last Adam only (Jesus)

On what basis exactly are you so sure about your definition ? Here's a link :

islamqa.info/en/8492

And I quote :

According to your Bible or other religions ? Don't forget that we don't believe they are the original messages revealed by Allah . I thought we went over this a month ago .

Incorrect . Jins are like humans in that they have a free will . And there's a Surah named after them :

https://quran.com/72

And from it :

14 And among us are Muslims [in submission to Allah ], and among us are the unjust. And whoever has become Muslim - those have sought out the right course. 15 But as for the unjust, they will be, for Hell, firewood.'

And the disbelievers of Jins are called devils . Keep in mind that even among humans there are devils and that's because this is a name given to evil doers . Still , generally , when we say "THE devil" it is Iblees .



DON'T , get into baseless hypothesis . And if I remember correctly , I did inform you that the devils are not "THE" cause of sinning . People themselves differ . There are those who obey and those who disobey .

76:3 Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful.

It's starting to look that we view angels differently also. Maybe that's a topic for another thread.

Exactly .

I'm not sure how a person who could be considered the lowest of humans through his/her actions be considered lower than an animal.

Again , animals act on instincts and have no minds . A person who has one and YET chooses falsehood is worse . That's why Quran says :

7:179 And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

So it does not follow that a "mindless" human is somehow an animal or indeed lower than animal. A human is a human regardless of intellect or ability.

The insane and mentally ill are a different case . That's why an insane person isn't blamed to not accept Islam and is judged on the final day .


They don't have a soul , but they have a spirit ?!

And the problem is ? There are two reasons to kill an animal : either to benefit from it , or to fend harm . Slaughtering an animal to eat it is included in the first one . And even so , Islam sets strict rules to slaughter an animal in teh most merciful way . One can't sharpen the knife in front of it , slaughter it in front of another , and the one doing it must be "professional" to do it in one swift hit .

And no offense but , what does all of that you tell about your doctrine have to do with the current subject ? Egypt , cats , vegetarians ?

Indeed , because nothing he orders in religion is from his own , but rather from the almighty himself . You're trying to force the idea that he makes thing up and that's false by default .

53:1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

Spare us the emotional talk . It's ironic how you've been the one asking away and making claims about Islam and still , you seem to be the most insecure . I told you that the first pillar of Islam includes believing Muhammad peace upon him is a servant and a messenger of Allah . He doesn't claim divine abilities to himself and no real Muslim would .

And what angers you so much if Allah say he is the best of creatures ? Does it irritate you so much ? Apparently , it does , and so you slander that it is worship of man . And on the same step , I can say the same about worshiping a human . Of course you claim he was half human half God , still , why would I worship someone imperfect who has human needs and weaknesses and dies ? We deny any negative charecteristics allegated to Allah , it doesn't seem so with you .

So read about prophet Muhammad peace upon him to learn why he's the best of creatures instead of just hating him for your ignorance .

Since when is 1+1+1 equal to 1 ? And if the holy ghost is Jibreel , how come you have the nerve say you don't worship angels with a straight face ?

Bring me one , I say ONE sign or narration claims divine attributes to the prophet peace upon him or anyone else other than the almighty . For the gazillion time , Muhammad peace upon him is a servant and messenger of Allah , of you want to stick to your delusions that this is idolatry , stick to them while being silent .

Back to the stinking habit of red herring I see . Fine , two can play this game . Ever heard of Krishna ? He's an exact copy of what you claim Christ is . Born of a virgin , walked on water , is the son of God , and surprise surprise , along with almost 15 other individuals , was crucified to atone for the sin of mankind . According to your flawed logic , since Christianity came after all of those , it's false by default .



Islam states that Christ was a prophet of Allah sent with a message to his people . Those people altered the message and corrupted it when they were entrusted with them . That's why there are truths in the current Bible unaltered , yet . So instead of the meaningless accusations of "Muhammad - peace upon him - took what's in the books of Jews , Christians , Hindus , Buddhists , and many other" , argue which religion is true . It's really ridiculous when I hear that slander as if he had a magical library in his 5X4 meters house that no human ever noticed .

Note : I'm not sure about the size of the house , just said it to mean it's small .

With all due disrespect to your method of arguing , what you think doesn't matter .

You seriously need therapy . You're literally ill . You CAN'T stop spamming your slanders in every single post you make . That's a disease , and you need treatment .

Still , I'll remember to show you this quote of yours the next time you make the slander of "Muslims differ among themselves , so Islam is wrong" . And believe me , you will make it .

Back to track , if you read what I wrote properly - you didn't - you'd notice that I said it is NOT impossible . Visit a doctor for your eyes too .

As for your farce in the undelined , you have until one of us dies to bring one evidence from Islam that a religious man can judge from outside Quran or Sunnah . Each and every single individual can say right or wrong things about religion except the prophet himself . That's why we return to the message itself .

A pitiful excuse . I can say you're in deep deception by default and thus you're wrong . End of the story . We have minds to tell the difference between truth and falsehood . And when someone refuses truth , it is either they are ignorant of what it really is , or are following their desires . So bring forth your proof if your are truthful .

Disbelievers are in hellfire on the judgement day and animals return to sand , of course that's below animals .

YOUR beleif .

Go to the top of this reply and ponder how wrong you are .

Well, that's interesting. I would never have thought to "prostrate" to another in greeting. This from the rest of the link you provided.. What does it mean permissible according to the law of Allah .. At that time.. Am I to take from this excerpt that prophet Mohammed decided that prostration was for Allah alone at a later date? Did Allah change his mind about whom should be prostrating to whom? I'm not sure what to take from that.

*** The prostration of Yoosuf’s parents and brothers was also a prostration of greeting and honouring, which was permissible according to the law (of Allaah) at that time. But according to the sharee’ah brought by the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it is not permissible to prostrate to anyone at all except Allaah. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If I were to have commanded anyone to prostrate to anyone else, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade Mu’aadh to prostrate to him when he (Mu’aadh) said that the People of the Book prostrated to the great ones among them, and he mentioned the hadeeth quoted above. The prohibition in this sharee’ah against prostrating to anyone at all except Allaah is an aspect of its perfection in achieving true Tawheed. It is the perfect sharee’ah whose perfection is manifested in all its rulings. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):***



Doesn't really matter what you believe. We know the Bible as it stands is what it has always been and you have absolutely no proof otherwise.

I'm not at all sure what a jinn is or why they exist. Am I to assume they are a different creation entirely from humans and angels? What purpose do they serve?

DON'T , get into baseless hypothesis . And if I remember correctly , I did inform you that the devils are not "THE" cause of sinning . People themselves differ . There are those who obey and those who disobey .

76:3 Indeed, We guided him to the way, be he grateful or be he ungrateful.

Well.. I will leave you to explain what exactly a jinn is and what purpose it or they serve. Maybe that's also another topic for another thread.

Again , animals act on instincts and have no minds . A person who has one and YET chooses falsehood is worse . That's why Quran says :

7:179 And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

That's frankly ridiculous.. An animal has a capacity for learning behaviours... Some are very adept at it. To say they have no mind for thought process makes no sense. A level of intelligence needed to allow for learning behaviours is evidence for some kind of "mind". In regards to choosing falsehood that's a matter of opinion for someone's falsehood is another's truth.


I rather think it is dependant on the persons soul as how they are judged. Not weather they are willing or able to accept or not prophet Mohammed as the last prophet.


God in the Bible gives a criteria in regards to animals, as to what animals that were acceptable for sacrifice etc. I mentioned vegetarians because mankind was first created vegetarian.. According to the Bible.. Maybe you do not have that level of information available to you in the Quran. God decided when mankind could use animals for food.. In the Noahic covenant, which as you also don't have much info in the Quran either about covenants then I don't expect you would know this. Cats .. I mentioned in passing as they were never favoured very highly due to their link to the pagan deities of Egypt at that time. We won't go into the whys and wherefore a of animal slaughter methods. I don't see the point in that, weather an animal is stunned or not before bleeding out is a matter for animal welfare issues.


Only muslims believe Jibreel is the Holy Ghost. We know it is not possible for an angel no matter how lofty his rank in heaven .. To be the Holy Ghost.. Or rather Holy Spirit. Main reason being angels are created beings and the Holy Spirit is eternal and uncreated. Also you should be aware that to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin. Just thought I would mention that..so no... We DO NOT worship angels.


Islam states a lot of things about Christianity that actually have no basis at all in Christianity... Just someone's misconception about it. Please desist with this nonsense about the Bible being altered.. Or bring on your proof of what you claim.. And if you are honest and read those suras that muslims fondly quote in support of this idea in truth you will know that they do not claim the Torah or the Gospel was changed. In fact I don't think the Gospel is mentioned at all.

The mere idea that Prophet Mohammed may have needed access to a library to glean information about Judaism or Christianity is ludicrous and I can only think you are meaning it in some kind of tongue in cheek manner. You know for sure that the Torah and the Gospel were in wide circulation in the sixth century along with a whole host of gnostic works and folk tales. You think it likely that prophet Mohammed never heard any of these!!! Was he not well travelled with his wife's Khadja's business? The wife whose Nestorian Christian cousin knew and spoke with prophet Mohammed. If there is the slightest possibility that Prophet Mohammed could have heard of the previous scriptures by any of these means then you cannot say with your hand on your heart with all certainty that he was not unduly influenced by them.

Incorrect , it is Allah the almighty who decided so . And he knows best of the nature of mankind and knows it is for the best .

You should keep in mind that in Islam , Allah doesn't do or order something and then change it because he - exalted he is - found out the latter is better than the first , rather , it's because he chooses what fits certain people of certain places and times . That's why it later became forbidden to marry one's sister , something I believe the Bible says as well .

I could simply say "I have proof" but as said before , this isn't the subject right now .

I know for certain that they are tested as well as humans . In regard to their purpose , wither I personally know or not doesn't matter because I do know that Allah is the most wise .

I don't think it requires a whole thread so I'll make it short .

While angels are created from light and humans are created from clay-sand-mud , Jinns are created from fire . They have a free will and thus are judge the same as us ...... well , that's about all I have on my mind right now . If you want specific information , just ask .

We seem to differ on what we mean by "mind" . The point is that animals have a very limited intelligence . Still though , even animals glorify the almighty and exalt him :

17:44 The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.


NOT , an excuse . If so , none would be judged at all . Both mind and the good nature - Fitrah - lead people to truth . Only those who follow the ill desire would ignore the signs when they see them . And if you believe what you just wrote , why on Earth do you preach your religion ?

Missing the point here . As for the soul , Allah says :

91:7 And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it 8 And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness, 9 He has succeeded who purifies it, 10 And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].

And as for accepting prophet Muhammad peace upon him , I'm sensing skeptism on your part . Like the rest of prophets , we believe in him being sent from Allah , peace upon them all . Also keep in mind that Allah never wrongs anyone .

18:49 And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present [before them]. And your Lord does injustice to no one.

So wither it's a teenager on their puberty , an insane person , a person who had the message of Islam presented in a wrong way , rest assured , Allah will judged each accordingly and he never does injustice to anyone .


That's your ...

... fair enough .

Maybe not in Quran but in Sunnah . That's all in Islam . Sacrifises can only be done with camels , cows , or goats and sheep . I might be inaccurate about the last two because frankly , I'm not sure if "Ghanam" includes one of them or both .

So it's a no brainer that you can't do so with a chicken . Or with non livestock for the matter .

Alright , back on track . The whole reason this started is because you don't see it acceptable to kill something with a soul for food . I presented our view in Islam . That's quiet enough .

It seems that each time I mention your doctrine , I touch a nerve . It's so sensetive that you'd turn blind for crystal clear signs of Quran and crystal clear narrations about the subject . The people of the book corrupting the message is a given and a no brainer among Muslims . Wither that's correct or not is a different subject for another thread . Still , I'll bring you the signs again :

2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

4:46 Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

5:13 So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

5:41 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain.

So who knows our doctrine better , the entire Islamic nation through history starting from the companions , or you ? I thought we've already gone through this , let's not start it again because that's just ridiculous and absurd . If just the claim that the people of the book altered the message gets you worked up like that , what would happen in a conversation about the proof for it ?

In Arabic ?! Do I need to remind you he couldn't write or read ? And when you make the claim he heard it from someone , Allah himself answers you and the pagans who made this slander a millenia and half ago :

16:103 And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.

And I don't know how on Earth would someone just take thing he hears on the fly and "adds" them to his message while avoiding the everything that's false !

Oh ! So you're just assuming that he heard these folklores on the fly as he was travelling ! Also , here's a thing , he hasn't been anywhere outside the peninsula . You kept talking about proof for the corruption - another subject - yet here you are making allegations out of thin air .

https://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/ar...-christians-ii

Also , he died shortly after the revelation . Islam was revealed through 23 years !

[QUOTE]The rest of your post does not warrant a response as it is no more than personal vitriol against Burninglight. Which I would have thought you would have been above.. It's a shame that we can't agree to disagree without recourse to unpleasantness. [/QUOTE]

I thought you said one's falsehood is another's truth . You don't seem to see anything wrong with his method of flooding the thread and the constant slandering , but I do . If he just acts more professionaly and stops trying to force his personal - and comletely baseless - opinions , he'll find a different treatment . Each situation is acted upon differently , that's a given .

?!

Either I chose wrong words when I translated from Arabic to English , or you differ with the Orthodox Christians of Egypt we're dealing with because that's what they say . They say that the human contained the divine being one with it - or something nearly - . So honestly , if you have a problem , you should be sovling it with them .

Already addressed . And once again , that's your belief .

Pot calling kettle black .

Either me not choosing proper words at translation or Catholic and Orthodox - etc - differing among each other .

So , blind faith in short . Here you are talking about monothesim and slandering at Islam basing your slanders on ignoarnce of the testimony . You claim monotheism to yourselves and say you worship 1 . And now when I tell you about the equation , all of a sudden it isn't possible to understand ?! Indeed , creatures can't comprehend the true nature of Allah , still , we know he's one , perfect , and has no partners .

So let me get this straight : You realize we don't claim any divine attributes to the prophet peac upon him and you STILL have the nerve say we worship him with a straight face ?!

U mad bro ? I won't get into the subject at the time , the video was just to make you get of your high horse .

While I may not be the best of my fellow members at conversations and don't have as much pateince as some of them , I do address your points .

And when I "attack" the OP (What's that ?) , I'm attacking your method .

You missed the point . I'm talking about the final day . On that day , animals return even once more to sand while the people of hell are imprisoned .

That's not clear from the text...but I'll take your word for it.

God in the Bible is unchanging, all knowing and just. I accept what you say about choices made for certain people at certain times and places. However.. God in the Bible never changes His mind to suit an individual person.


[QUOTE\]I could simply say "I have proof" but as said before , this isn't the subject right now .[/QUOTE]

Maybe this is not the time or place.. But where were you with your proof on the other thread on this topic? I was promised proof by another member, that proof was not produced.

I may read up on jinns.. Out of curiosity. If they are not mentioned in the Bible then they are probably not that important to spiritual matters.

Mind.. Surely the ability to process information, weather the intelligence is limited is irrelevant. Human intelligence is measured differently from animal intelligence. The fact that some animals have a higher capacity for processing information shows that some form of intelligence quota exists within animals as a species. Doesn't mean it's comparable to man as a species. As God ordained for man to have dominion over animals then by Gods will a humans intelligence quota will always be greater. Everything animate or inanimate is made by and for the glory of God.

Because it's truth... ;)

This is your belief. I don't believe Prophet Mohammed was sent by YHWH except as a messenger to a particular people for a particular time. I agree that God does not deal in injustice.. As to do so would be against His divine nature. The Bible teaches that it is by grace we are saved and our good deeds are nothing but dirty rags before a Holy God. In other words we cannot save ourselves by our own efforts.. We know our limitations and our shortcomings. Our good deeds have to be born from love and a desire to please God. Not for any book of gains and losses.


Camels were forbidden as food or sacrifice in the Bible, don't know why they are allowed by Allah in the Quran. The sacrifice issue is null and void now as Jesus was the final sacrifice ... As we believe.. The Jews no longer sacrifice because they no longer have the temple and God decreed where and when they were to sacrifice.


Long thread ... With much info I will continue in another post. ..we seem to be veering off track.. :)

peace.

Agreed.

Believe me you do not come anywhere near touching a nerve. Nothing you say to denigrate my faith causes a ripple of discomfort upon my person. :) the only thing you could say I am a tad sensitive about is your disrespect towards Jesus... And even this is not enough to cause me to anger because Jesus does not need my anger and would not welcome it as we know it is hurtful to God to show anger towards a person because that person may not intend to behave thus and some may not even see their actions should be cause of anger or distress to another. Guess that cuts both ways so if I have unintentionally caused you to anger by my words then I sincerely ask your forgiveness. In regards to your above suras.. Then you read them again and pray tell where does it state the WHOLE of the written Torah was changed but what some Jews interpreted for their own ends. Bedsides if you know the history of the Torah you would know that any changes any one person made would soon be discovered by another with a manuscript in their possession. As Christians also held there own copies of the scriptures do you think they would have stood silently by and said nought if they saw evidence of Jews changing the meaning of the text. I would not pretend to know any more of Islam than the poorest of muslims in knowledge. I'm just saying it as I see it.. And it does not match up that such a corruption on this scale (to change the scripture to the extent of needing another new revelation) is possible to carry off without it being discovered.

Yes, in Arabic.. I don't know much about Hadith .. As in what is considered authentic etc. I think I am correct in saying that Bukhari is considered reliable.. You may correct me if I assume wrongly.

***Bukhari Sahih Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."***

That fact it's a widely held belief that Prophet Mohammed was illiterate, I fail to see how that fact would in anyway impede his hearing or being influenced by Jewish and Christian scriptures and literature that history shows was available in Arabia in the Arabic language at that time. In regards to avoiding anything false.. That again is a matter of opinion... It does not seem unreasonable to conclude that writings found in early Jewish folk tales that were never part of scripture to be found in the Quran is going to raise questions for non muslims.


Again, I fail to see what the fact of limited travel outside the Arabian peninsula by prophet Mohammed himself would be proof of not hearing of the scriptures and other writings from travellers coming to the peninsula. The fact that Christians and Jews were inhabitants of the area we can take from that they brought their faith and knowledge of their respective scriptures. I'm not saying prophet Mohammed added things he heard from other sources.. But I am saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility.. And when non muslims see things in the Quran that has been long understood to be from the minds of men handed down as folklore and never been part of scripture then should that not raise in our minds a valid questioning. Of why Allah would include such in the Quran.

23 years, a short time indeed for a final revelation when YHWH had spent 1500 + perfecting His biblical message through the scriptures that came before. Is the time scale relevant? God takes time as long as it needs to complete His will. As God exists outside of our frame of time reference as our understanding then we don't question that.



Yes I did say that.. You are passionate about your Islam as we are about our Christianity. We are all individuals and express ourselves differently. We can, will and do disagree on points and at times we can reach concordance on others. Criticism of words and opinions is inevitable.. But your replies were bordering on the personal and that's why I mentioned it.. Maybe I should not have..


Yes, you chose your words wrongly. You said Jesus was half man half God and that's what Christians believe. That is against Bible teaching and whatever denomination where ever they are in the world Christians do not believe Jesus is half man half God. But fully man and fully God. Maybe you should go back and ask the question again and listen to the answer. As Gods Word incarnate Jesus can only be fully divine as Gods uncreated Word is divine. As Man born of woman under the law Jesus can only be fully human. There exists in Jesus the one divine essence. As all things are possible with God we have no issue understanding the Bible on this. This is our belief.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).


You missed the point . I'm talking about the final day . On that day , animals return even once more to sand while the people of hell are imprisoned .

And you need a text after this ?! :

The message came with prophet Muhammad peace upon him , but it's a given that the message is from Allah .

Is is just me or are you hinting at something ?

Other thread ? If I remember correctly , I said I'm not an expert and that's why I leave it to someone who knows better . All I've been doing this whole time is explain our belief . And time after time , I've been saying that presenting one's belief is different from discussing proof of it .

Based on your own words , your truth is someone else's falsehood .

Which I've een saying for nearly two months !

Am I misunderstanding or are you saying deeds are meaningless and all that you should have is "love" ? Indeed , Islam teaches us that one's work isn't enough , but it is the mercy and justice of Allah :

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
There is none whose deeds alone can'secure salvation for him. They said: Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that, the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me.

And for the record , that was before the revelation that the prophet peace upon him would enter paradise . Just to clear things up .

Then why the sudden change of tone each time I mention OUR belief about the people of book ?

Come again ? Where did I show disrespect toward a prophet of Allah ?

And WHO on Earth told you that the WHOLE message was altered ? I said a number of times that we believe there is remaining truth that hasn't been altered . That includes what agrees with Islam . And again , that's our belief .

I did say I'll leave it to someone who knows better but I'll just provide my opinion since you dived into the subject . Based on my humble knowledge , there are pastors - and whatever other ranks there are - who admit the original scripture is lost . The reason is the method of narrating the Bible which doesn't match with what you wrote . So , I'll read further into it .

You gotta be kidding me . Do you realize that the movement of translation to Arabic hasn't begun until centuries after the prophet peace upon him ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_Movement

Bukhari is the most accurate and is the most truthful of the books after the book of Allah . Still , there's a number of weak narrations in it . It isn't authnetic because it's Bukhari , it's authnetic because it's the most authnetic .

As for teh narration , I did tell you that this man "Waraqah" passed away shortly after the revelation . Islam was revealed on the span of 23 years . And let's not forget that the life of the prophet peace upon him after the revelation is recorded in details . Pagans made the claim he is taught so by someone , but they could never back their empty claims up or tell who this imaginary person telling him things is . Further more , isn't it strange that someone teaches him and then remains silent when he claims he recieves revelation ? That , along with so many other paradoxes deny the possibility that Islam quoted from someone . The reasons for similarities is that they are facts which haven't been altered or hid . It's unreasonable to think that Islam should differ 100% from other religions to say it's from the almighty , especially when it states that they are revelations as well .

I already provided reasons as to why this is indeed ruled out .

Maybe it's indeed from the original scripture but the people of the book hid it , like talking in craddle and creating birds from clay with the will of Allah . You shouldn't rule it out as a possibility , right ? Again , that's our belief .

Wait what ? The point was it is impossible for Waraqah to have "taught" the prophet this religion . Or maybe you say he talked to him from teh grave ?

Possibly . I should direct my words to his method instead though .

Fari enough .

What context is this message received please? I ask in case I have read this wrong in the Quran or misunderstood the occasion.

Hinting at??

Well, you have proof or no.. If you have show it if not don't say you have. Or were you not meaning to imply you had proof? I have come to the conclusion that there is no proof so I'm not doing any breath holding exercise awaiting the outcome. All I have been doing is trying to explain my faith which is nothing like how you perceive it to be. Funny.... How "proof" seems to be the requirement for Christians to produce on demand.. Explanations for a personal perspective not being good enough.. Yet you (by you.. I mean in collective terms not personal) see it ok to present YOUR understanding of our faith and expect us to accept that without a qualm!!! Why is it so hard to accept that when it comes to Christianity you may not know as much as a Christian? That's what concerns me.. Muslims reject Christianity as false based on misconceptions and untruths.. So you do not know what it is you reject. I've said it before.. It's a gift freely given and reject it as you will .. But first understand what it is you reject.

mercy me.. Has it been that long already.. !!! :))

Yes.. When it comes to salvation our deeds are not counted as rewards or penalties. We are saved by grace alone. Which does not mean good deeds are not an important part of our faith.. They are.. But we do them out of love of God. There is a danger of good deeds being a source of pride, which is a sin. Jesus said ~

2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

There is no obligation upon us, except that is out of love and a desire to please God. Very often people get this wrong.. Making a big show of their charitable deeds thus taking the glory for themselves when the glory is to God alone.

I'm not aware of this change of tone. I guess it's a cause for some sadness to me that despite explaining my faith as I see it muslims still seek to impose their misconceptions about my faith and at times have the audacity to tell me what I actually believe!!! Contrary to what I know I believe. It's a conundrum for sure.. It doesn't cause me to anger though.. lol..

Maybe a poor choice of words here... Which for a wordsmith like yours truly is a bit of a faux pas.. Lol.. I was meaning collectively.. Not you personally. For the record every time you refer to Jesus as "Son of Mary" it is an insult upon His person and one for a Christian is hard to hear. I know you do not see this, and indeed why should you? But.. According to our belief we would never ever refer to Jesus in this manner. I think I have already explained why on another thread somewhere at some time.

Makes no difference weather it's the whole or part.. If one bit you think is corrupted then the whole work is suspect. How can you trust that the bits in the Quran were not changed.. Just by being in the Quran?

so if the original (we refer to them as autographs) are no longer in existence due to age and the fragility of the materials used does that automatically mean that the copies made were not accurate? How to prove that?

Kid you not... The Gospels and the Torah as we have them today were in widespread use hundreds of years before Prophet Mohammed. Are you saying there were no Arabic speaking Jews or Christians at that time in Arabia? How on earth did they trade and interact? Besides which given that committing scripture to writing was long and laborious work it was for the most part transmitted orally. As was I believe the Quran.

I never once said anyone was teaching prophet Mohammed or feeding him information.. I simply said the possibility that he heard stories from Jews and Christians that he could have met... And we know for sure he did meet both Jews and Christians on occasions. So I'm just saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility. Islam was quoted from a spirit believed to be Gabriel was it not? I never have heard that Prophet Mohammed received his revelation any other way. The Bible says it was Gabriel that brought the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.. So I have some issues with the same angel bringing a different message 600 years later. As Angels.. At least those that form the heavenly host, do not lie and act according to Gods will.

Well, evidence we have shows it can be ruled out as a possibility. Besides from which either miracle you mention has little meaning attached. The clay birds is particularly problematic I should think from an Islamic point of view. You could google Gnostic gospels .. "The infancy Gospel of Thomas" and see why it was not accepted as authentic. However, as you say.. It's your belief and you are happy with it. That's fine then.

where did I make this claim that he was taught anything by anyone??? I raised the point that as prophet Mohammed had contact with both Christians and Jews during his life... Possibly before during or after his revelation.. Makes no difference when. It can't be ruled out that accounts in the Quran that have roots in Jewish writings but not in scripture could have had some influence. I'm not saying it was so... Just that if the possibility exists it can't be ruled out totally. This is not an issue for you.. But I hope you can understand why it raises questions for Christians and Jews.

Wait what ? I didn't understand you properly .

Never mind .

Look , it isn't a necessity that each and every single person knows how to present proof properly . We don't know how to prove ourselves that gravity has a force of 9.(something) but we are convinced with what we already saw of evidence presented by experts . That's the case for me at least .

As for our belief , it's a belief as you can tell . And when we're convinced with the evidence that Islam is right , we believe whatever it tells . And while you ask for proof of the people of the book altering the messages , I can simply ask you proof of the miracles Christ performed . So what's the point arguing about that ?

I see . Agreed .

What misconceptions ? I'm just stating what Islam says about the people of the book . You ask "Why don't you believe in the Bible" ? And I say "Because I don't believe it's the original one" . I'm not saying "You shouldn't believe that this is the original Bible as a Christian" . It's a no brainer that you can't be a Christian and say such a thing ! Ironically , that's the same thing you've been trying to impose on us saying that Islam doesn't state the people of the book were entrusted with the message and they altered it .

Not really , I have my problems with spelling :) .

You did explain and I did tell you we'll refrain from using that title when discussing with you and refer to him as Christ or any other name .

Because I believe in the Quran being from Allah and is the final message . Why do I believe that ? I see evidence and proof for it ? What is that ? That would require a whole debate .

Apparently , I wasn't clear . They say that the original text itself , copy or not , was lost . Anyway , this is all based on my humble knowledge . I said I'll look further into it .

For the written scripture to be in Arabic , not really , as for Jews and Christians speaking Arabic , fair enough . Still , it doesn't mean he took Islam from them .

Discussing the matter of quoting would require a separate time for itself . But I don't think it needs another thread . If you want , we can return to it later after clearing the rest up . As for the revelation , it is revealed to the prophet peace upon him through many methods :

1 - Visions .
2 - Jibreel arriving in the form of a man .
3 - In his real form .
4 - Allah talks to him directly from behind a veil .
5 - The revelation arrives like the ringing of the bell .

Now I see . We can discuss this here later .