Excuse me, I will close this thread till I finish my answer completely so that you don't interrupt me. As soon as I finish my answer, I'll open the thread and give you the chance to answer. I expect finishing my answer tomorrow.
عرض للطباعة
Excuse me, I will close this thread till I finish my answer completely so that you don't interrupt me. As soon as I finish my answer, I'll open the thread and give you the chance to answer. I expect finishing my answer tomorrow.
Actually I don't see a difference between ( the beginning of the creation of God) and ( the begiining of God's creation)اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight
Here is another translation saying that the Christ is the beginning of God's creation :
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV)
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re3.14
Now, do you see that the Bible is clearly stating that Jesus Pbuh is created by God or you will just keep arguing ?
What's strange is that you are arguing about whether Jesus Pbuh is God's creation or not and you are ignoring that Jesus Pbuh in the same chapter in revelation said more than once that the Father was his God?
Read revelation 3 :
11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.So now do you believe that the Father is the God of the Christ ?
So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)
How on earth can the Christ be God if the Father is his God? How can he be God while he himself has a God?
Do you know that your concept of Jesus Pbuh being the word of God or the logos by which you mean that Jesus is divine and he is the power or the word through which God created everything is just taken from Philo, a helenized jew that was living at the same time when Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC - 50 AD) ?اقتباس:
IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
Philo said that God created everything by the Logos, the author of the fourth Gospel just plagarized the concept of the Logos from Philo and just added that the Christ is the Logos?
Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Philo_of_Alexandria
Do you now believe that the concept of the Logos was just copied from Philo ?اقتباس:
Logos in Hellenistic Judaism[edit]
In the Septuagint the term logos is used for the word of God in the creation of heaven in Psalm 33:6, and in some related contexts.
Philo of Alexandria[edit]
Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matterand perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[28] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."[28] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."[29]
Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[28] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible(Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.[28]
Christianity[edit]
Christ the Logos[edit]
Main article: Logos (Christianity)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Clementina.jpghttp://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
In principio erat verbum, Latin for In the beginning was the Word, from theClementine Vulgate, Gospel of John, 1:1–18.
The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:[30]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.[31]John also explicitly identifies the Logos with Jesus:
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"[32]As theologian Frank Stagg writes: As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God,[Jn 1:1] ... Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God".[Jn 1:1] God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption.[33]
.......................................
Early Christian writers[edit]
Following John 1, the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr (c 150) identified Jesus as the Logos.[49][50] Like Philo, Justin also identified the Logos with the Angel of the Lord, and used this as a way of arguing for Christianity to Jews:
I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos[51]In his First Apology, Justin used the Stoic concept of the Logos as a way of arguing for Christianity to non-Jews. Since a Greek audience would accept this concept, his argument could concentrate on identifying this Logos with Jesus.[49] However, Justin does not go so far as to articulate a fully consistent doctrine of the Logos.[49]
So now, what you can't deny, is that Philo who lived while Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC-50 AD), is the one who developed the concept of the Logos or the word as a divine being and according to Philo the logos is the first born of God and through the Logos, God created the universe. Philo was a jew who didn't believe in Jesus Pbuh, he was just a heretic according to the Jews.
The author of the fourth gospel, at the end of the first century, after the death of Philo by around 50 years, just plagarized what Philo said about the Logos or the word and just did one addition, he claimed that this Logos or Word is Jesus Pbuh.
My point is that you can't read John 1 and tell me, it proves that Jesus is God. You can't tell me"All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" proves that Jesus is God. It just proves that the author of this gospel is copying from heretic jews and that your faith is just built upon this plagarism.
Answer :اقتباس:
or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
1- Epistle to Hebrews has been disputed by some of the early christians as mentioned by Eusebius
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....viii.iii.html
2- There is a great debate about the author of epistle to Hebrewsاقتباس:
. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine
Chapter III.—The Epistles of the Apostles.
5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is dis135
puted595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place.596 In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul,597 I have not found them among the undisputed writings.598
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...to_the_Hebrews
اقتباس:
Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...or_Hebrews.jpghttp://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
The King James Bible 1611 ed. ends the Epistle to the Hebrews with "Written to the Hebrewes, from Italy, by Timothie"
The author of Hebrews, that is, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, is unknown. Although perhaps the most common theory through the ages has been that Paul the Apostle is the author,[1] most modern scholars generally agree that it was not written by him.[2] Since thethird century A.D. doubts have been raised about the identity of the true author. It is one of the Antilegomena—New Testament books whose canonicity was initially somewhat disputed.[3]
Some scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[4]
Though the writing style varies from Paul in a number of ways, no author is internally named in the letter, and the authorship has been debated since the earliest days of the Church, there still are some who regard the apostle Paul as the writer of Hebrews due to some similarities noted in phrasings, and the similar focus on Christ's superior plan of salvation.[5] Editions of the King James Version of the Bible usually place a heading over Hebrews with the words, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." However, that attribution was not part of the original document of Hebrews, but was added several hundred years later by scribes copying the book who believed Paul to be the author.[6]
3- This sentence is just taken from Psalm 45
The jews just translate it into ( Judge) instead of (God), which means that the phrase in Psalms 45 may not be referring to God at all, but the author translated it in this way to prove deity of christ
See Rashi's commentary on the Tanach
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
4- Christian unitarians don't believe that Heb1 proves deity of Christاقتباس:
[TABLE="class: Co_TanachTable rashi_on, width: 100%"]
Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
Please read this whole page, written by christians not jews or muslims :
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vid...-christ-as-god
5- Let's read the whole verse from Psalms 45 or Heb 1اقتباس:
How about Psalm 45, another prophecy about the Messiah—this one about him riding forth victoriously to conquer and then rule the earth as God’s perfect representative. Verses 6 and 7 are quoted in Hebrews 1:8 and 9, which is where we will go next. Sad to say that in verse 6 the word “god” is once again mis-capitalized as “God.” No, like Psalm 82 and Isaiah 9:6, this psalm is also speaking of the Man among men, the one whom God would empower to restore His lost Paradise.OK, let’s look at Hebrews 1, and the context of the quote from Psalm 45. For the record, Hebrews 1 and 2 are a trenchant account of Jesus Christ’s journey from suffering to glory, emphasizing why he had to be a man (the Last Adam) in order to be the Redeemer of mankind. They are covered in detail in Chapters 2 and 3 of our One God & One Lordbook. Hebrews 1:1-3 shows how God did His best in Old Testament times to communicate to mankind via the spoken and written words of the prophets, but what He really had in mind was Jesus, His ultimate image. Verse 4 then begins a most significant analogy between Jesus and the angels that goes all the way through Chapter 2.
Verses 5, 6, and 7, each quoting an Old Testament reference, are speaking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v. 5—it’s not about his birth—look at Ps. 2:7 & Acts 13:33) and his return to the earth to rule (v. 6). Verse 8 clarifies that Psalm 45:6 and 7 are a Messianic prophecy, but the translators once again mis-capitalize “god” as “God.” But look at verse 9! It says, “…therefore God, even your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Say, if one is God, how can anyone else be his “God”? That should be a more frequently asked question! In agreement with many other verses of Scripture, Hebrews 1:9 is clearly saying that because Jesus Christ suffered and died, God raised him from the dead and highly exalted (anointed) him as Lord.
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
It is actually clear here that the speaker is addressing ( God) and then addressing someone else telling him (your God)
Surely, God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (your God)
Probably the one whom the speaker here addressed telling him (Your God) is king David or king Solomon and the christians will insist that the speaker is speaking to Jesus Pbuh
Even if we want to say that the speaker is speaking to only one person, we will have to accept the translation of the jews (O judge) instead that of christians (O God) because simply God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (Your God)
I don't know what exactly do you mean? and what is the source of this strange claim?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight
You are claiming that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name
Prove your claim!
In Islam, God has many names, which are called الأسماء الحسنى ( Alasma Alhusna, which means the best names)
Many of them are mentioned in the holy Quran, and they are known by all muslims not just Prophet Muhammad Pbuh
Just prove your claim !
Surely, Allah is God's name.اقتباس:
Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity.
Probably you are saying this stupid claim, which many of the christians who don't know arabic keep repeating. On the other hand, you will never find an arab christian saying this claim You know why?
Because Allah الله is the word used by both muslims and arab christians to refer to God.
If you read the Bible in arabic, everytime you read the word ( God), the arabic Bible will use the word ( Allah).
Even Jesus Pbuh used the word Allah. He used to speak in aramaic. Check this link to know the aramaic word for ( God)
http://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi
You have to write the english word ( God) in the required space, to see the aramaic word, and then tap (searh)
You will find that this is the pronounciation of the aramaic word is :
Sure. this word is very close to the arabic word Allah.اقتباس:
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: right"]Pronunciation:[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5"](Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH[/TD]
[/TR]
First of all, God didn't say in the Quran that Christians consider virgin Mary to be a part of the trinityاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight
I challenge you to find any verse in the holy Quran saying that the trinity is composed of the father, mother and son
You will never be able to find such a thing
However, God said that he will ask Jesus Pbuh on Judgement day whether he told the people to take him and his mother as gods.
This is the quranic verse :
وإذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم أأنت قلت للناس اتخذوني وأمي إلهين من دون الله قال سبحانك ما يكون لي أن أقول ما ليس لي بحقّ إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما في نفسي ولا أعلم ما في نفسك إنك أنت علام الغيوب
Yusuf Ali
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5: 116)
In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
Read this :
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
Here are some quotes from this link
[pg. 416]
Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency. Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..
[pg. 419]
Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
[pg. 421]
Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...
[pg. 16]
27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.
28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8HPhI7iwxM
I don't understand what are you arguing about when you ask who said that God , the father, is the third of three?
Surely, it is you.
You believe that there are 3 persons in the Godhead. According to what you believe, God, the father, is a person, Jesus is a person, the Holy spirit is a person, yet they are all ONE GOD. So according to your faith, God, whom you call the Father, is one of three persons in the Godhead or, literally, third of three.
NO, surely this word is referring to David not Jesus Pbuh.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight
Let's read Psalms 2 again :
7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.
The speaker here is saying ( The Lord said to me), so it is clear that he is speaking about himself, not about one of his descendants
Who is the speaker here?
It's surely David Pbuh before Jesus was born by hundreds of years.
The jews understood that the begotten son of God here is king David and they understood from this title that God loves king David, not that king David is divine and that they should worship him.
Read Rashi's commentary on the Tanach :
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
But the author of the epistle to Hebrews, just wanted to prove that Jesus is the son of God from the OT, so he claimed that Psalms 2 and 2 sam. 7 are both about Jesus, although the former is about king David and the latter is about king Solomon.اقتباس:
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”[/TD]
Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved sonاقتباس:
David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..."
According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
So what's the difference?
The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!
Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12
17This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…
So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?
Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.
I told you before that the concept of the word or logos being divine and being the first born of God and that everything was created through the Logos is just taken from Philo, who was the first to make up these concepts while Christ was aliveاقتباس:
There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word.
The author of the fourth gospel just took what Philo said and added that Jesus Pbuh is the Logos
If you think that this is the central gospel message, you are just proving that the central gospel message is plagarized from heretic jews
Well, according to the Bible, the disciples have the authority to forgive sins tooاقتباس:
That is why He could forgive sin;
John 20
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.”22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.”
Are the disciples divine too?
If you say no, but they were given the authority to forgive the sins from God, I'll tell you ok, so why doesn't the same apply to Jesus? Why don't you say he was given the authority to forgive sins from God?
Let's suppose that Jesus Pbuh really said : ( Before Abraham I am )اقتباس:
It is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am"
Does this really prove that he is God?
See, compare this to the hadith of prophet Muhammad Pbuh : ""I was a Prophet when Adam was between bodyand soul"
Prophet Muhammad Pbuh doesn't want to say that he was physically present before Adam was created, he just wants to say that his prophethood was determined by God and was known to God before Adam's creation
The same applies to ( Before Abraham, I am), it doesn't mean that Jesus Pbuh was physically present before Abraham, it means that his prophethood was determined by God and known to God since earlier stages.
Read Jeremiah 1 also :
4 The Lord’s word came to me:
5 “Before I created you in the womb I knew you;
before you were born I set you apart;
I made you a prophet to the nations.”
Do you think that this means that Jeremiah was physically present as a prophet before he was born ?
Well surely, ( I am the way) doesn't mean ( I am God), it just means ( I, as a messenger from God, show you the way to God)اقتباس:
that is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way.
Do you want me to ignore that Jesus said that the father is his God, and believe that Jesus himself is God because he said I am the way?
I explained to you what Jesus Pbuh meant by ( Before Abraham I am), if he really said itاقتباس:
Even Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am"
We found that according to the Bible, the Father was Jesus's God, and that Jesus used to pray to God, and that Jesus didn't know when the hour is?اقتباس:
We must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"
Peace be unto you friend
So we understood that he is the servant of God
If you believe that the Bible is just a story that contains spurious partsاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Burninglight
How do you know that anything that you read in it is true?
Just emotions ......اقتباس:
If I don't share what God is saying right now to you, I am not preaching Christ. Jesus is the only word of God, and we experience Him through the Holy Spirit. So we know from Scripture that God is one and Jesus is His word and we know God's spirit convicts us of error and sin. It is not important to me that someone coined the term trinity because I understand the concept and I understand it is not my job to preach of teach it. The biggest thing about true Biblical Christianity which Muhammad and Allah didn't seem to understand is that it is not a religion as much as it is a relationship with God. It is religion that nailed Jesus to the cross. We true Christians that have a relationship with Jesus know God and we can be filled with His Spirit. Our faith is the substance or what we hope for and the proof or evidence of what we don't see. Without faith it is not possible to please our God. Those that come to him must believe that He is and, He rewards those who seek Him diligently. It relationship not religion. It is God by His spirit who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It is not by our works that we can please God; it is by our faith that works by love. When we have this kind of faith, good deeds will be visible. If they are not visible, there is no faith. People can do good deeds and not have faith; that means nothing to God, but it is not possible to have faith without good works just as you cannot have smoke without fire. Nothing anyone can say against the Bible can tear a Christian of His faith once He has truly experience Christ to where God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that God is conforming us to the image of Christ. The path of the just is as a shinning light of day it shines more and more until the perfect day like the noon day sun. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. There are many nominal Christians that convert to Islam who know about Christianity and Jesus, but they don't know Christ personally in relationship. Those the Christians you get that call themselves reverts. They never knew Jesus; they only knew about Him. I know Jesus friend and want to make Him known, but the Jesus I know is not the same Jesus of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons or the Muslims. What we do with this message I shared determines our eternal destiny so help me God.
The thread is open again. Sorry for closing it all this time. Kindly answer all my points.
Friend,
As I mentioned, when a person has emotions that doesn't mean he is not using his or her brain or heart. Like I said emotion is God given, and not necessarily a bad thing. I think you are confusing being emotional about something which is another way of saying reacting to something with knee jerk responses. That is not what I am doing. I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.
Look at how many responses I have given on the different threads, and no one appears to have a good comeback. I understand why, but do you? Maybe that is because they only speak and write Arabic. My responses are thought out carefully. I write only after careful deliberation. I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion. Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times. So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?
May God bring blessing and peace to you in Jesus name.
Burninglight, are you kidding? Is this your answer to all my previous posts?
Even your claims in your last post have been answered by me before in another thread, but you're just repeating the same claims and not even bothering to read what we write or answer it !!!!!
You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive. Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts. Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary. In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend. Muslims repeat themselves many times as well saying the same things; so, address the issues again soak it bro like me maybe something will penetrate.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Peace
Actually, I am not trying to be evasive, but I have answered in details all the points you were talking about, and this took me more than a week, and you didn't bother to discuss anything of what I wrote, and you just repeated some points that I have answered somewhere else !!!اقتباس:
You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive.
Ok, no problem. I will address again the issues in your last posts although I have addressed them before. But could you also address the issues in my posts that I wrote in more than 1 week when this thread was closed ?اقتباس:
Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts.
Ok, I will.اقتباس:
Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary.
Never mind about my tactics. Kindly read my posts and address the issues in them.اقتباس:
In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend.
I will just quote my previous answer to this point at this link http://splashurl.com/meqqdgtاقتباس:
I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion.
اقتباس:
In Islam, you are 100 % safe as long as you believe in God, all of his messengers, all of his books and in judgement day and you do good deeds. This is the guarantee that the holy Quran gives to all people : (من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97 ( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97 So your security in Islam, depends on believing in the religion of God and doing rightousness However, we don't think that we are sure that we are 100% safe in judgement day, because we don't know how our deeds will be at our death ? At our death, will we be believers doing good deeds ? If so, we are safe but we don't know how will we be at our death. What about christianity? You think that you are safe because God made the Jews and Romans kill his son or himself on the cross !!! Surely, this is a very strange concept However, let me ask you a question Do you think that you are secure even if you kill other people or rob them or do very bad deeds just because you believe that God has sacrificed his son ? If so, then surely christianity is not the true religion because it encourages people to do bad deeds just because they believe that they are secure whatever their deeds are, as long as they believe that Jesus Pbuh was crucified If you think that to be secure, you must do good deeds, then this is the same as Islam, so there is no point at all in your objection In Islam we have hope in God and in the same time we fear him We hope that he will forgive us and have mercy on us and in the same time we fear his punishment Our fear from god prevents us from doing bad deeds Abu Bakr did not say that he does not trust God of course, but what he said means that he will fear God even if one of his legs was in paradise and the other is still outside it
Again I answered this at the same link :اقتباس:
Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times.
However, you now have a lot of posts really and it seems logic that your posts don't have to be screened first anymore, but of course I don't have the authority to decide this, I will contact the admins regarding this issue.اقتباس:
Well, this is just what you want to think I told you, we do this with all members whether muslims or christians We do this with christians, because some of them speak about Islam and Prophet Muhammad Pbuh in a very rude offending way
Again, I will just quote my answer which you can find at the same linkاقتباس:
So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?
اقتباس:
Actually, according to your Bible, Jesus Pbuh himself is a servant of God Matthew 12 15 Jesus knew what the Pharisees were planning. So he left that place, and many people followed him. He healed all who were sick, 16 but he warned them not to tell others who he was. 17 This was to give full meaning to what Isaiah the prophet said when he spoke for God: 18 “Here is my servant, the one I have chosen. He is the one I love, and I am very pleased with him. So do you think that Jesus Pbuh is a servant or a slave of God and you are not ? It is wirth to mention that the word in the arabic translations of the Bible that is used instead of Servant in Matthew 12 is not خادم ( Khadem) which means servant but is Abd ( عبد) which means slave Actually according to the Bible you are surely a servant of God Let's read from Revelation 22 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown them to me.9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I’m a servant just like you and your brothers and sisters, the prophets, and those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” So the angel, John, the prophets and those who keep the words of the scroll - according to the Bible - are all servants of God Again the arabic word is Abd which means slave Surely being a slave or a servant of God is not something bad, it means that God owns you in a way that can be compared to a master owning his slave And this is surely true, God owns us and he has power and control over every single thing in our lives, we can't take a single breath unless he wills, everything that we have, God gave it to us : life, food , drink, health , money .... etc In this way we are servants and slaves of God In Christianity, God is described as a Father to show his love and mercy and men are described as his sons In islam, we don't describe God as a father and we don't describe ourselves as sons of God, because describing our relation to God in this way has been misused by christians. Some of the early christians used to describe Jesus Pbuh as son of God, to show that God loves him, exactly as David and Solomon has been described as sons of God in the OT. However, after describing Jesus as son of God to show that God loves him, people began to believe that this means that he is God. This is why we don't describe God as a father in Islam or say that we are the sons of God. However, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh taught us that God is not just as loving and merciful as a father, but that God is more loving and merciful than a mother. There’s a Hadith where a mother had lost her child during a battle, and she was looking for him fearing the worst. When she found him, she held him close and it was one of the most powerful scenes of love and mercy the companions have seen that they started to weep. Our Beloved peace be upon him said, “do you wonder at the mercy this mother had for her child? God is far more merciful to His servants than this mother is to her child!”
Could you tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay? Which points exactly have I not been able to answer properly? I think I have been able to gainsay all your posts. You claimed that Jesus Pbuh is divine because he was born from a virgin, and I told you that this is a ridiculous argument because his birth from a virgin is a miracle to show the power of God and that he can create people in a way that is not subject to physical and biological laws. You claimed that Jesus is divine because he is the word of God and everything has been created through him according to the fourth gospel, and I have been able to prove to you that the concept of the Logos or the word of God through which everything has been created has just been plagarized by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo. You claimed that Jesus is addressed as God in the epistle to Hebrews, and I proved to you that the author of this epistle is unknown and some early christians considered this epistle spurious, moreover the phrase is taken from the OT and the jews translate it to OJudge instead of OGod, and I showed you that even unitarian christians do not consider this as an evidence of divinity of Jesus Pbuh, and moreover the speaker addresses the person to whom he is speaking telling him (your God) so he is surely not speaking to God. You claimed that Uthman ibn Affan - may God be pleased with him - did some alterations to the text of the holy Quran when he burnt some Quranic texts that were present at his time, and I told you that he just wrote again the text that was collected by Abu Bakr, and the text that was collected by Abu Bakr was taken from the quranic text that was written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh used to read it, so no alterations were done. You claimed that there is an error in the holy Quran because it states that some people consider virgin Mary God, and I explained to you that according to thhe arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if the catholics worship virgin Mary - even if they don't say she is God - this means that they took her as a god according to the arabic language. Moreover, I've been able to show you some quotations from the Catholics which shows that some of them consider virgin Mary to be equal to God. So Could you please, tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay ? Could you also answer my posts ? You didn't answer me ..... How could Jesus Pbuh be God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God? How could Jesus be God while he himself said that the Father is the only God? How could he be God if he used to pray to God? How could he be God if he didn't know when Judgement day is? If you agree that the Bible is a man-made book that contains errors and spurious parts .... How do you trust it to take your faith from it? For example, how do you know that Jesus's resurrection story is not just a fake? Maybe he was not crucified and someone else was crucified as we muslims believe and as stated by some of the gnostic gospels, maybe he just died on the cross and the whole resurrection story is just a fake. How do you trust a book containing errors and spurious parts to be the source of your faith? What about the false prophecies in the Bible and the true prophecies in the Quran and Hadiths? I gave you examples for such prophecies.اقتباس:
I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.
Okay, please do speak to the moderators about us Christians being able to post directly. There is another Christian on the forum who has posted over 500 posts and she cannot post directly either. Is that fair? This tells me something about the fruit of Islam and how things would be under Sharia. Well, enough of that I started a thread on it; so, let me address your points. I am like you in the sense I am not trying to be evasive either.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You asked some questions that I will attempt to answer. The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign not to show the power of God, because every birth shows the power of God's creation; so, your response is lame. I didn't say the virgin birth proved Jesus divinity; I said it proves He was born without sin and remained so. I told you that Islam borrowed the virgin birth story from the NT Bible, but rejects the reason the NT Bible gives for His virgin birth.
The virgin birth was putting flesh and blood on God's word and in that sense God is with us (Jn. 1). God showed us that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory, because of God's perfect justice, we must die, but because of God's goodness, love and mercy, He provided a way for us to escape the judgment of God by accepting the work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus satisfied the penalty for our sin and justice was served.
That doesn't mean that we can kill and do evil works; it means Jesus is in us and God creates in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It means we are saved from past, present and further sin and we know that we'll be with God. We are free to choose but not free from the consequences of our choices. It means we have to meet God on His terms to be saved. If we are truly born again in Christ, we have been saved by God's grace through faith, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer for wrong doing. It is not by works we are saved, otherwise, man gets the credit and not God. God is not mocked a man will received according to his works. We reap what we sow, but when we have faith operational in our lives, God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that is why we know our eternal destiny. We might still sin but it has been paid for; now, we just have to deal with the consequences of our poor choices here and now.
Muslims don't know their eternal destiny for a reason. That fact alone guarantees you don't have salvation now. You must meet God on His terms to get this gift of God. Muslims don't have the security we Christians have, You will never know if you have done enough good deeds or prayed enough or followed Islam close enough for salvation. The truth is that no matter how close you try to follow Allah's and Muhammad's laws and commands in Islam, you will be able to do enough to save yourself. Jesus said it; "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...No one comes to the father God except through me" You are saying that these are a corruptions of God's word is the corruption. Again, the real corruption is believing this is a corruption, because it damns the soul for eternity, and this makes God very sad. I feel this sadness, because I am His and I have been brought for a price. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ. It is a monstrous teaching to say Jesus didn't die for our sin, because it damns the soul. It is written "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God".
Now, I cannot claim Uthman made alteration to the Quran; I am just saying you cannot proved the Quran has been perfectly preserved. As for Allah's question to Jesus "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count three with Allah as the third and Allah said, "they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three." Who does that or who did that? Not even the Catholics do this.
I didn't ask you about those who worship Mary. No one consider her God not even Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, so I know exactly what I am talking about. I have heard Catholics say she is the mother of God, because Jesus is the divine son of God, but they don't believe she is God or the mother of God the father. This is both Allah's and Muhammad's misconception of Christianity, and this is what you cannot gainsay although you try.
I am, therefore, seeing Islam as a reaction to its misconceptions of Christianity, and it started with Allah and his slave messenger. So, I see the god of Islam and the Quran to not be the same God of the Bible and Jesus. Jesus is the only truth. Allah never mentioned the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity; therefore, this blaring discrepancy that you either cannot see or don't want to see, but I see it clear as crystal.
Peace be unto you thank you for your response. Let me know what else you would like for me to address.
Sure, I will speak to them.اقتباس:
Okay, please do speak to the moderators about us Christians being able to post directly. There is another Christian on the forum who has posted over 500 posts and she cannot post directly either. Is that fair?
Well, I told you before that these are the rules of the forum that apply for both muslims and christians. If you want to keep on saying that this shows that this shows how things would be under Sharia, it's up to you but we are sure that what you are saying is completely wrong and we will not change the rules of the forum.اقتباس:
This tells me something about the fruit of Islam and how things would be under Sharia.
And then if I say that you are kidding, you will tell me that I am trying to be evasive. Ok, I won't say that you are kidding, but I'm really sorry to say that your claim here is ridiculous.اقتباس:
The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign not to show the power of God, because every birth shows the power of God's creation; so, your response is lame.
You are claiming that the virgin birth is not a sign of the power of God because every birth shows the power of God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely, every birth shows the power of God, however the virgin birth specifically shows that God can break the physical and biological rules and can do whatever he wants to do. According to biology, man must have a father and a mother, God broke this rule and created Jesus from a female only, so this is a miracle that shows the power of God.
I totally agree with you that the virgin birth can't be a proof that Jesus Pbuh is Godاقتباس:
I didn't say the virgin birth proved Jesus divinity
Well, you just think that everyone is born with sin and that he inherits the sin from his father not his mother.اقتباس:
I said it proves He was born without sin and remained so.
In Islam, we don't believe that we are born with sin because Adam Pbuh sinned.
In Islam, no one inherits the sin of the other, you are only responsible for yourself, we don't believe that because Adam Pbuh sinned, we have all inherited this sin and because we have inherited this sin, we all must go to hell and so God had to sacrifice his son to save us from the punishment of the sin we have inherited from Adam Pbuh.
In Islam, God is fair, he won't punish me for the sin of my father and he won't punish my father for my sin. No one inherits the sin of the other and man is only responsible for his own sins.
Do you think that it is fair if God makes you inherit sin ? Why should you inherit it ? I believe that God is completely fair and I don't think this is fair.
It is worth to mention that the Bible states that no one is responsible for the sin of his father.
Read :
So your concept of the inherited sin is not fair, not logic and even contradicts the Bible.
Now, forget all what I said and let's suppose that we inherit sin.
I don't understand why are you dealing with sin as if it is a gene that could only be inherited from the father? Why do you think that sin can't be inherited from mother?
If virgin Mary was born with sin according to your faith, why didn't Jesus Pbuh inherit sin from her?
Actually, I think that what you are saying is completely unlogic, you just think that we are born with sin and that the sin is inherited only from the father not the mother !!!!!!!!!
You also think that because we wereborn with sin, God had to kill his son to forgive us for the sin that we are born with !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if we are born with sin, God can just forgive us for our sins without anything, Why should God kill his son to forgive us ????????
Very strange !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have a servant and he makes a mistake, don't you think that people will consider you mad if you kill your son to forgive your servant ??
Do you think that God can't forgive us without killing his son ?
As mentioned above, the reasons you are giving for the virgin birth are not logic. This is why, we believe that the reason for the virgin birth is that it shows the power and glory of God.اقتباس:
I told you that Islam borrowed the virgin birth story from the NT Bible, but rejects the reason the NT Bible gives for His virgin birth.
As mentioned before several times, the concepts in John 1 are just plagarized from Philo, and you have completely neglected this point and didn't address it and you are just again speaking about John 1.اقتباس:
The virgin birth was putting flesh and blood on God's word and in that sense God is with us (Jn. 1).
As mentioned above, God doesn't have to neither kill his son nor make people kill his son to save us. God can simply forgive us without any work on the cross.اقتباس:
God showed us that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory, because of God's perfect justice, we must die, but because of God's goodness, love and mercy, He provided a way for us to escape the judgment of God by accepting the work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus satisfied the penalty for our sin and justice was served.
What christians say is that Justice must be preseved, and there must be a punishment for the sin, but they are simply neglecting the other half of the fact, justice is to punish the one who sins, it's not to kill someone else or punish him. So I don't see that justice is preserved if Jesus dies for our sins, why should someone who has no sin die for sins of others?
The Bible orders you to forgive others, so if you forgive someone without punishing him, do you think that this is not fair? If it's not fair why does your Bible order you to do it? Why doesn't the Bible order you to punish yourself to forgive others to preserve justice?
SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUSTICE.
Well, Burning light I didn't get a clear answer to my questionاقتباس:
That doesn't mean that we can kill and do evil works; it means Jesus is in us and God creates in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It means we are saved from past, present and further sin and we know that we'll be with God. We are free to choose but not free from the consequences of our choices. It means we have to meet God on His terms to be saved. If we are truly born again in Christ, we have been saved by God's grace through faith, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer for wrong doing. It is not by works we are saved, otherwise, man gets the credit and not God. God is not mocked a man will received according to his works. We reap what we sow, but when we have faith operational in our lives, God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that is why we know our eternal destiny. We might still sin but it has been paid for; now, we just have to deal with the consequences of our poor choices here and now.
If you kill someone or do very evil deeds, will you be punished by God for your sin and go to hell or you will just be forgiven and you won't be punished because according to your faith God made the jews and romans kill his son to forgive your sins ?
If according to your faith, you will never be punished for any sins because the son of God has been killed, then surely your religion is not a true religion because it encourages people to commit sins.
If according to your faith, you will go to hell if you kill someone or do very evil deeds, then there is no difference between christianity and islam and there was no reason for the death of Jesus on the cross according to the Bible.
Kindly give me a clear answer to the question : Will you go to hell if you kill someone or not ?
Well, what you are saying is completely wrong.اقتباس:
Muslims don't know their eternal destiny for a reason. That fact alone guarantees you don't have salvation now. You must meet God on His terms to get this gift of God. Muslims don't have the security we Christians have, You will never know if you have done enough good deeds or prayed enough or followed Islam close enough for salvation. The truth is that no matter how close you try to follow Allah's and Muhammad's laws and commands in Islam, you will be able to do enough to save yourself.
As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)
( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97
This is the guarantee in Islam :
(إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)
النساء 31
Sahih International
(If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31
(وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)
الأنفال 31
Sahih International
(But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31
So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
If you do this you are secure
If you don't do it, it's your fault
But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong
This is your opinion, but according to us, the teaching that God was slapped by the jews and romans, the teaching that the romans were able to spit on God and nail him to the cross and kill him is a monstrous teaching.اقتباس:
It is a monstrous teaching to say Jesus didn't die for our sin, because it damns the soul. It is written "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God".
As mentioned before, we are sure that the Quran has been perfectly preserved because :اقتباس:
Now, I cannot claim Uthman made alteration to the Quran; I am just saying you cannot proved the Quran has been perfectly preserved.
1- The holy Quran has been transmitted orally from the Prophet Pbuh to his companions to those who came after his companions to those who came after them to people who are still living till now.
2- Uthman has been copying the text that was collected by Abu Bakr which was taken from the quranic text written while prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.
Although I am able to prove that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved, let's suppose I'm not able to prove that it is perfectly preserved, what about the Bible? You admit that it contains errors and spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?
You can't prove that the quranic text was altered, all what you are trying to say is that I can't prove that the quranic text has been perfectly preserved.
On the other hand, we are both sure that the biblical text was not perfectly preserved and that it contains spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?
As mentioned before, according to the arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if some people worship Mary, then they take her as a god even if they don't say directly that she is God. The catholics worship Mary so this means they take her a god.اقتباس:
I didn't ask you about those who worship Mary. No one consider her God not even Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, so I know exactly what I am talking about. I have heard Catholics say she is the mother of God, because Jesus is the divine son of God, but they don't believe she is God or the mother of God the father. This is both Allah's and Muhammad's misconception of Christianity, and this is what you cannot gainsay although you try.
As you can see, that I've been using the expression ( As mentioned before) several times because you argue about things that I have answered before without addressing my answer.
As you can see also, your point is completely gainsaid but you just don't want to admit this.
Catholics say that they don't consider virgin Mary to be God, but if you read their books you will find that some of their bishops considered Mary divine.
Let me paste what I said before :
And as usual, you just didn't bother any of these quotes or the youtubeاقتباس:
In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
Read this :
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
Here are some quotes from this link
[pg. 416]
Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency.Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..
[pg. 419]
Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
[pg. 421]
Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...
[pg. 16]
27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.
28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8HPhI7iwxM
Surely you count Allah as the third of a threeاقتباس:
"Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count three with Allah as the third and Allah said, "they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three." Who does that or who did that? Not even the Catholics do this.
Allah is God, Allah is the translation for the word (God) in the arabic versions of the Bible, and as mentioned before the aramaic word used by Jesus Pbuh for God sounds very close to Allah
So Allah is God, whom you call the Father
You claim that the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are 3 persons but one God
So you count God the father as one from 3 persons in the Godhead, or literally third of a three
Since Allah is God the father
Then you count Allah as third of a three
Hope you understand the point now
Thank you for thatاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Some Christians have posted over 500 times and still cannot post directly; so, if there is discrimination, you answer to God. Please show me the forum rules to back up what you say. If you cannot, I rest my case.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
No, I didn't say it doesn't show the power of God; I said it is not the reason for His virgin birth. If you believe this imperfectly borrowed story from the NT Bible was just to show the power of God, you missed the point of your eternal salvation.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
It doesn't disprove it either.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
"David said surely I was sinful at birth.... in sin did my mother conceive me"اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I never said we inherit sin. I said we inherit a sinful nature. The sin we commit belongs to us not Adam. Jesus came to set us free from being slaves to sin otherwise there is no freedom. "Whom the son sets free is free indeed."
It is not the reason I give. It is the reason the Scripture gives.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You mean it was plagiarized like the virgin birth story was from the NT Bible? Just because Islam's messenger couldn't read and write doesn't mean he wasn't exposed to oral tradition regarding the gospel.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
So, you are going to tell God what justice is or is not. God sets the terms and if we want the gift of salvation, we must meet God on his terms not ours. God's ways are not our ways.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You are not understanding Christianity or the power of God. The soul that sins dies. It is written: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God the justice for sin is death. Because of God's perfect justice you must die for your sin. You cannot do good and be forgiven for your evil deeds. If a criminal murders someone in a robbery and then does good deeds afterward, does he get off the hook for his murder? The law says he must be punished. He cannot be forgiven as if he had never committed the evil deed, and he must die.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Jesus is God's gift to us. For God so loved the world that He gave us Jesus that whoever believes on Him should be saved. Jesus satisfied the perfect justice of God with His death on the cross. He died the death we deserved. We cannot satisfy God's justice with good deeds. The monstrous deception is to believe that we could be saved by good deeds and God's justice will be satisfied. We have to meet God on His terms not ours. His terms are to believe in His son and He even said if in an audible voice documented in the Bible: "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...no comes to the father (God) except through Me" Who has deceived you to think you can get to paradise any other way?
[QUOTE=3abd Arahman;598345]
Well, what you are saying is completely wrong.
As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)
( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97
This is the guarantee in Islam :
(إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)
النساء 31
Sahih International
(If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31
(وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)
الأنفال 31
Sahih International
(But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31
So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
If you do this you are secure
If you don't do it, it's your fault
But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong
You are missing the point. You have no guarantees of paradise, and you know it. First of all, good deeds cannot save you, and God doesn't just forgive you unless you meet Him on His terms. Not only good deeds or works cannot save you, even if the could which they cannot, you would never know if you did enough to be pleasing to God. So guarantees you have none in Islam. I am not a Muslim, and I know this; you are Muslim, and you don't know? That is what is ridiculous, and this unequivocally proves to me you are living in denial or deception or bothاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You cannot prove it has been perfectly preserved was my only point. And you know it. Using the Bible cannot prove anything about the Qurans perseveration. You are obviously using it as a red herring.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
The video wouldn't come up for me. My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet? I know of no one who took Mary for God. If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that. If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity. Do you see the blatant discrepancy? So, Islam is in part a religion that is reacting to its misconceptions of Christianity.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
No, Allah didn't say a third like you slice candy in thirds. He was clear, and any one can logically infer what was truthfully meant. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" that makes Allah the third person in his question and later Allah confirms by saying "They do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" He didn't say a third which is not what Christianity teaches anyway. You can live with what I consider a major discrepancy but I couldn't. You, like other Muslims, try to use semantics to get out of this, but knowledgeable Christians know you are just grasping a straws. I hope you know more about medicine than Spiritual matters and the Scriptures or I wouldn't want you for my doctor.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Peace be unto you and may you come to the knowledge of truth
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73)
The order he said is as clear as crystal 1. son, 2. mother, 3. father/Allah
Look carefully, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" 1, 2 & the third of 3. I know you can see this so being obtuse or using semantics is lame and cannot get you out of it or make the verse work the way you want to believe.
Allah said the third not a third of three. Besides, if someone wanted to say a third of the whole, there is not a need to say a third of three. Just saying a third is sufficient to know that a third is one third of three parts, but clearly he didn't say a third ; he said the third. Semantics doesn't work friend, nice try. So you could've convince me and no cigar for you. Again, Catholicism and Biblical Christianity does not believe God is a third. So who was Allah referring to. No one believes in the inferred trinity described by Islam's god or messenger. We all believe God is one. Jesus is not a third of God; He is the word of God, and God is the Holy Spirit!
No one can explain God's essences or how He can make His word and Holiness persons which are not thirds, but fully God. It is other earthly or worldly. God cannot be explained by finite beings such as ourselves or incorrect math formulas such as 1+1+1=1. Muslims have no good reason to reject God's tri unity. Just like you accept Allah is one when he say we have sent down the Torah as the royal we, we accept God saying let us make man in our image and likeness as the royal us. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit and yet I am one not three. I cannot make my word a person or my spirit one, but God is not limited. Man is limited and limited in understanding. You have no reason to reject perfect monotheism and the perfect unity of God expressed in His Son (The Word) and Spirit. The Jews and Christians were saying God is and was one way before Islam's prophet was born. It is an imperfectly borrowed concept, IMHO, just as is the virgin birth of Jesus which came from the NT Bible first!
Peace unto you
I did address all your points. What is missing that I didn't address? I even followed the link you gave and responded in a different way what I had already responded to. You seem to blow off all I say as emotion, but that is not very convincing in a debate or discussion. Please tell me straight out how many times did you have to post before you could post directly?
Well, usually the forum is closed during the month of Ramadan, so probably it will be closed very soon. So I will answer you and we can continue after the end of Ramadan.
I asked the admins and they told me that they explained the issue for you. The posts of all members are reviwed first in this section and the islamic section, whether they are muslims or christians. Why are you asking me about issues that the admins already explained to you ?اقتباس:
Some Christians have posted over 500 times and still cannot post directly; so, if there is discrimination, you answer to God. Please show me the forum rules to back up what you say. If you cannot, I rest my case.
It surely disproves it.اقتباس:
It doesn't disprove it either.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I can't imaging that a man who is coming to the world through the genital organs of a woman is God. I really don't understand how can you believe this ?
I can't imagine that a man who eats, drinks, defecates and urinates is God. Do you see that it's logic to believe that God was a man who used to defecate and urinate?
I can't imagine that a man who has a sexual desire is God. I can't believe that a man who used - as all men- to have erections and wet dreams is God. How on earth can you believe this?
God is great. Nothing is like him. Glory be to God.
Moreover, as mentioned before this man used to worship God, and said that the Father is his God, and said that he doesn't know when is judgement day. Yet, you think he is God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, this is what you think, but how can you prove this to me or anyone who is not a christian?اقتباس:
No, I didn't say it doesn't show the power of God; I said it is not the reason for His virgin birth. If you believe this imperfectly borrowed story from the NT Bible was just to show the power of God, you missed the point of your eternal salvation.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You have no evidence.
According to us the virgin birth is a sign of the power of God, it doesn't show that Jesus Pbuh is God or the son of God and it doesn't show that he was born without a sinful nature to die instead of us for our sins.
Let's suppose that we inherit a sinful nature.اقتباس:
"David said surely I was sinful at birth.... in sin did my mother conceive me"
I never said we inherit sin. I said we inherit a sinful nature. The sin we commit belongs to us not Adam. Jesus came to set us free from being slaves to sin otherwise there is no freedom. "Whom the son sets free is free indeed."
Why didn't Jesus Pbuh inherit it from his mother?
He could it inherit it from both his father and mother or from his mother only. Maybe, he has a father and a mother, yet he doesn't inherit the sinful nature.
It seems that you think that sinful nature is a gene that is only inherited from the father.
What is the relation between having no father and the inheritance of sinful nature?
NOTHING, this is even not logic, but you see it logic just because this is what was told to you since you were a kid
But if you speak to someone who is not a christian, he will see that what you say is not logic
Actually this ridiculous response, shows me how weak your faith is, you can't defend, you are not even trying to defend it because you don't know how to defend it, and you are just trying to prove that there is a similar plagarism in Islam just to convince yourself that plagarism is in both religions so Islam isn't better than Christianity !!!!اقتباس:
You mean it was plagiarized like the virgin birth story was from the NT Bible? Just because Islam's messenger couldn't read and write doesn't mean he wasn't exposed to oral tradition regarding the gospel.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
You are just grasping on straws
As mentioned before, the virgin birth is true, Luke knew about the virgin birth because he did effort to trace everything from the beginning as mentioned in the opening of his gospel, in the holy Quran God told us about the virgin birth of Jesus Pbuh as a sign of his power
I don't see any problem at all in this
If you want to keep claiming that this is plagarism, just keep claiming but it's just a very ridiculous claim that shows how weak your arguments to prove your religion are
On the other hand, according to both the jews and christians Philo is a heretic, Philo didn't believe in Jesus although they lived in the same time, yet after the ascent of Jesus Pbuh, the author of the fourth gospel just copied what Philo said about the Logos and said that Jesus was the Logos !!!!!!!!!!!
Can you explain this plagarism ?
I challenge you to give me a logic explanation
So, according to what all people know, justice is to punish the one who did the mistake, it's not to kill yourself or your son because someone else did a sin.اقتباس:
So, you are going to tell God what justice is or is not. God sets the terms and if we want the gift of salvation, we must meet God on his terms not ours. God's ways are not our ways.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
So, don't keep on telling us that the death of Jesus Pbuh on the cross was actually the only way to fulfill God's justice and to avoid punishing us
Don't try to convince me that this is justice because there must be a punishment for a sin, you are deceiving me and deceiving yourself, justice is to punish the one who sinned not to punish someone else
Tell me, it's really strange that God killed his son to forgive us, we don't understand why did God do this and we have no logic explanation for it, but this is what we have to believe in to be christians
Actually Jesus Pbuh never said in your gospels that he will die on the cross in order to carry the punishment for the sins instead of us and this was the only way to preserve God's justice and mercy in the same time
He never said this, I challenge to show me where did Jesus say this
The logic explanation, that you won't like, is that these were explanations that were made later on by early christians like Paul, to make the people believe that Jesus Pbuh who was beleved by them to die on the cross is the Christ
The jews believed that the christ will be a victorious king who will redeem them and make them the most powerful nation
How could a man who died in vain on a cross be the Christ they are waiting for?
So such explanations had to be made, that this death was the plan of God to preserve his justice without punishing us
Again, you are just avoiding to answer my question.اقتباس:
You are not understanding Christianity or the power of God. The soul that sins dies. It is written: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God the justice for sin is death. Because of God's perfect justice you must die for your sin. You cannot do good and be forgiven for your evil deeds. If a criminal murders someone in a robbery and then does good deeds afterward, does he get off the hook for his murder? The law says he must be punished. He cannot be forgiven as if he had never committed the evil deed, and he must die.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Jesus is God's gift to us. For God so loved the world that He gave us Jesus that whoever believes on Him should be saved. Jesus satisfied the perfect justice of God with His death on the cross. He died the death we deserved. We cannot satisfy God's justice with good deeds. The monstrous deception is to believe that we could be saved by good deeds and God's justice will be satisfied. We have to meet God on His terms not ours. His terms are to believe in His son and He even said if in an audible voice documented in the Bible: "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...no comes to the father (God) except through Me" Who has deceived you to think you can get to paradise any other way?
If you kill someone or do very bad deeds and you don't repent before your death, will you be punished for your sins or you will be forgiven because Jesus died for you?
I just want a clear answer, either (Yes,I will be punished) or (No, I won't be punished because Jesus died for me)
If your answer is the first, then there is no difference between Christianity and Islam, if you do major sins you will be punished
If it's second, then your religion is surely wrong because it encourages you to do bad deeds
I wonder if all the Christians in the US where you live, who have sexual relationships with their girl friends, believe that they won't be punished and will be forgiven because God killed his son so that they can commit major sins without being punished
Give me a clear answer
Also, if Jesus died so you don't die as a punishment for your sins, why do all christians die till today and will continue to die ?
[QUOTE]Well I really don't understand the point of this discussionاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd ArahmanWell, what you are saying is completely wrong.
As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)
( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97
This is the guarantee in Islam :
(إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)
النساء 31
Sahih International
(If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31
(وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)
الأنفال 31
Sahih International
(But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31
So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
If you do this you are secure
If you don't do it, it's your fault
But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong
You are missing the point. You have no guarantees of paradise, and you know it. First of all, good deeds cannot save you, and God doesn't just forgive you unless you meet Him on His terms. Not only good deeds or works cannot save you, even if the could which they cannot, you would never know if you did enough to be pleasing to God. So guarantees you have none in Islam. I am not a Muslim, and I know this; you are Muslim, and you don't know? That is what is ridiculous, and this unequivocally proves to me you are living in denial or deception or bothاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I am a muslim and I feel safe as long as :
1- I believe in God and his messenger Muhammad Pbuh and his book the holy Quran and his religion Islam
2- I do good deeds
3- I avoid major sins
4- I ask God to forgive me
If I die while I am preserving these 4 conditions, I am safe because God is very merciful, he will not throw me in hell if I preserve these 4 conditions
If you want to claim that I am not safe and I don't have any guarantees, you can go on claiming this, however I am a muslim and I told you what I believe and I mentioned the texts in the holy Quran supporting what I believe in
Although I feel safe as long as I preserve these 4 conditions, I also fear God, I know if I commit major sins he will punish me and I fear his punishment
I don't rob or kill or sleep with a girl friend or drink alcohol, I am strict in doing the prayers in time, I don't eat in the mornings of Ramadan because I fear God
I understand that I am not safe if I do these things
But as long as I preserve the 4 previously mentioned conditions I am safe because God is so merciful
I hope you got my point
My question to you is what if you commit major sins? Are you safe? Are you safe if you sleep with your girl friend or rob someone? If you are safe according to your religion, then your religion is wrong because it encourages you to commit sins, if you are not safe unless you avoid such major sins then there is no more safety or guarantees in Christianity than Islam
I just sometimes think that you are making some ridiculous claims just to avoid admitting that your points were answered.اقتباس:
You cannot prove it has been perfectly preserved was my only point. And you know it. Using the Bible cannot prove anything about the Qurans perseveration. You are obviously using it as a red herring.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I told you that the proof that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved is that it has been transferred to us both orally by many people and written, and both completely match with the quranic text we are reading today. What proof do you want to show that the holy Quran has been preserved?
Can you prove that the holy Quran has been falsified ? No, you can't. Unless you can prove this, your claim is completely irrelevant.
Can we prove that the Bible contains spurious parts? Yes and you agree, so your holy book has been falsified and you can't claim that God has preserved it.
Now, I'm comparing 2 religions.
The book of one of them is surely falsified.
The other, there are some claims that its book is falsified, however these claims can't be proved and have been answered completely by those who believe in thiis religion.
Which religion should I follow? Which religion is in a better situation?
If you don't the crystal clear answer, then you are not willing to see the truth.
Burninglight, you just want to argue about clear issues.اقتباس:
The video wouldn't come up for me. My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet? I know of no one who took Mary for God. If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that. If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity. Do you see the blatant discrepancy? So, Islam is in part a religion that is reacting to its misconceptions of Christianity.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
This ridiculous claim shows that you know nothing about Islam.اقتباس:
My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet?
We don't worship prophet Muhammad Pbuh at all, we only worship God.
Read this Hadith :
- اللَّهمَّ لا تَجعَلْ قَبري وثنًا يُعبَدُ
الراوي: أبو هريرة المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: غاية المرام - الصفحة أو الرقم: 126English translation :
خلاصة حكم المحدث: صحيح
Abu Hurraira narrated that the messenger of God Pbuh said : ( OGod don't let my grave be a worshipped statue)
We don't worship prophet Muhammad Pbuh, we don't ask him to forgive our sins or to let us enter paradise or to save us from hell or to cure us from diseases, we just believe that prophet Muhammad Pbuh is a normal man who died and who was selected by God to be his messenger to mankind, worshipping Prophet Muhammad Pbuh is just like worshipping statues
اقتباس:
The video wouldn't come up for me.
You should change the browser you are using to be able to see it
Here is the link
ht tp ://ww
w.y
ou
tub
e.co m
/wat
ch?v=L8 HP
hI7 iwxM
Paste the link but omit spaces and hopefully you will be able to watch the video
Yet, you didn't even try to answer the quotes that show that some bishops in the Catholic church considered Mary to be God or equal to God
I'll paste them again, maybe you will bother to answer them this time
According to these quotes, Virgin Mary's honour is like God's honour, God is subject to her, she is the divine mother, and finally she transformed into Godاقتباس:
Read this :
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
Here are some quotes from this link
[pg. 416]
Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency.Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..
[pg. 419]
Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
[pg. 421]
Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...
[pg. 16]
27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.
28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
How can you understand these quotes?
If someone says that Mary transformed into God, then he is surely considering her God
You don't know but I know and I mentioned what they said several times and you are just not bothering to answer these quotes and you are just continuing to claim that no one considered virgin Mary to be God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!اقتباس:
I know of no one who took Mary for God.
This is just a waste of time
Well as I told you, in the arabic language anything or person that is worshipped by some people is a god.اقتباس:
If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that.
For example in arabic we say that a cow is a god for the Hindus, however Hindus just worship cows but they don't say frankly that cows are God who created them
I hope you got the point
Yet, regarding virgin Mary, some Catholics consider her to be God although they deny this but it's present in their books
Simply because God is saying in this verse what the Christians say.اقتباس:
If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity.
Although some Christians worship virgin Mary and although some of them even consider her equal to God, yet they say that there are 3 persons in the Godhead not 4.
I think the answer is clear but you just want to argue.
اقتباس:
No, Allah didn't say a third like you slice candy in thirds. He was clear, and any one can logically infer what was truthfully meant. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" that makes Allah the third person in his question and later Allah confirms by saying "They do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" He didn't say a third which is not what Christianity teaches anyway.
Burninglight, you are just grasping straws.اقتباس:
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73)
The order he said is as clear as crystal 1. son, 2. mother, 3. father/Allah
Look carefully, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" 1, 2 & the third of 3. I know you can see this so being obtuse or using semantics is lame and cannot get you out of it or make the verse work the way you want to believe.
Allah said the third not a third of three. Besides, if someone wanted to say a third of the whole, there is not a need to say a third of three. Just saying a third is sufficient to know that a third is one third of three parts, but clearly he didn't say a third ; he said the third. Semantics doesn't work friend, nice try. So you could've convince me and no cigar for you. Again, Catholicism and Biblical Christianity does not believe God is a third. So who was Allah referring to. No one believes in the inferred trinity described by Islam's god or messenger. We all believe God is one. Jesus is not a third of God; He is the word of God, and God is the Holy Spirit!
You are just building conclusions upon your own understanding and your understanding is wrong.
God said ( Don't say three) because Christians say that there are 3 persons in the Godhead.
God will ask Jesus Pbuh during judgement day whether he told people to take him and his mother as 2 gods, because some Christians worship Mary, some of them even consider her God.
Actually there is nothing in the Quran to say that Mary is a part of the trinity except your conclusions.
Also some early christians called Mariamites, believed that the trinity is the Father, Mary and Jesus.
Read this :
http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/0...pped-as-a-god/
I'll paste the important parts :
Hope this brings your argument to an endاقتباس:
There is vast amount of evidence from the Church Fathers that, there was a certain sect in Arabia that believed the Trinity consisted of: “Father, the Son and Virgin Mary.”
1. George Sale“This notion of the divinity of the virgin Mary was also believed by some at the council of Nice, who said there two gods besides the Father, viz., Christ and the Virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the Popish superstition in calling her the compliment of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect with her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous….” [1]2. Reverend Gilbert Reid D.D.“As to Christianity as it was represented in Arabia, it was not a clear untarnished theism, but tritheism. The Heavenly Father, Mary the mother of God and Jesus their son, were WORSHIPPED as three Gods, and their images appeared in the churches along with the images of other saints. Christianity as taught by Christ had lost its identity in the formalism and errors of the church of Arabia. Still more the truths pro-claimed by God through all the ages had been lost sight amid the vain imaginings of men’s hearts. The only God of, an omnipresent spirit, without form or body. The reformation of Mohammed was thus a return to the first and second commandment of the Prophet Moses, which Jesus himself had taught.” [2]3. Washington Irving“The Mariamites, or worshippers of Mary, regarded the Trinity as consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Virgin Mary. The Collydrians were a sect of Arabian Christians, composed chiefly of females. They worshipped the Virgin Mary as possessed of divinity…..” [3]4. English theologian Theophilus Lindsey writes:“The followers of Christ had been for some ages quarrelling and destroying each other in their heat’s and disputes, not concerning the Supreme Father of all, to whom they paid little attention; but about the nature of Christ. And of the Holy Spirit, and many other objects of worship, which they invented. (t) The notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was believed by some even at the council of Nice: who said there were two gods besides the Father, viz. Christ and the Virgin Mary, and were thence names Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified: which goes but little beyond the Popish superstition, in calling her the complement of the Trinity….” [4]5. William Cook Taylor“In Arabia itself some of the worst heresies were propagated: the chief of these were the heresies of the Ebonites, the Nazareans, and the Collydrians, the last of which derived its name from the collyris, or twisted cake offered by them to the Virgin Mary, whom they worshipped as a deity. It is known to all readers of ecclesiastical history that a sect called Mariamites exalted the Virgin to a participation in the Godhead, and that writers of the Romish Church have named her the ‘complement of the Trinity.’….” [5]6. John Holmes“….Jacobites, so called from Jacobus, Bishop of Edessa in Syria, and whose doctrine, directly contrary to that of the Nestorians in one point, denied the double nature of Christ in his state of incarnation: Mariamites, so called because they worshipped the Virgin Mary, and regarded her as, along with the Father, and the Son one of the persons of the Divine Trinity…. “[6]7. John Henry Blunt D.D. :“In Accordance with which are the statements of certain writers, logically in agreement with the worship they advocate, that St. Mary has been assumed into the Trinity, so as to make it a quaternity, that Mary is the ‘compliment of the Trinity.’” [7]8. Allan FreerNestorians, so called from their founder, Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople and whose heresy consisted in a recondite distinction between Jesus the man, and Christ the God-man; Jacobites, so-called from Jacobus, Bishop of Edessa in Syria, and whose doctrine directly contrary to that of the Nestorians in one point, denied the double nature of Christ in his state of incarnation: Mariamites, so-called because they worshipped the virgin Mary, and regarded her as, along with the Father and the Son, One of the persons of the divine Trinity: and collydrians, a sect guilty of similar heresy, and deriving their name from their practice of offering to the virgin Mary a particular kind of cake, called Collyris.[8]9. John William DraperIn the east, in consequence of the policy of the court of Constantinople, the Church had been torn in pieces by contentions and schisms. Among a countless host of disputants may be mentioned Arians, Basilidians, Carpocritains, Collydrians, Eutychians, Gnostics, Jacobites, Marcionites, Marionites, Nestorians, Sabellians, Vallentians. Of these the ; the Collydrians worshipped the Virgin as a divinity, offering her sacrifices of cakes…. [9]We can see from all the references quoted, that Mary was indeed believed to be part of the Trinity, by certain Christian sects of Arabia.
Am also surprised about your argument about ( the third of three) or ( a third of three)
You just say that God the Father (Allah) is a person from 3 persons in the Godhead
Well, the main reason that makes me sure that the trinity is a made-up faith isn't that it's not logic or that it's difficult to understand, the main reason is that - as I told you previously - it's not mentioned in the Bible.اقتباس:
No one can explain God's essences or how He can make His word and Holiness persons which are not thirds, but fully God. It is other earthly or worldly. God cannot be explained by finite beings such as ourselves or incorrect math formulas such as 1+1+1=1. Muslims have no good reason to reject God's tri unity. Just like you accept Allah is one when he say we have sent down the Torah as the royal we, we accept God saying let us make man in our image and likeness as the royal us. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit and yet I am one not three. I cannot make my word a person or my spirit one, but God is not limited. Man is limited and limited in understanding. You have no reason to reject perfect monotheism and the perfect unity of God expressed in His Son (The Word) and Spirit.
Jesus Pbuh in your books never said that there are 3 persons in the Godhead : the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He never said this. If this is the cornerstone of your faith, why didn't Jesus teach it to you?
Actually Jesus Pbuh was teaching that the only God is the Father, this is what we believe in.
John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
So according to the teaching of Jesus Pbuh, the Father is the only true God. According to your which Jesus Pbuh never taught, there are 3 persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit.
Can't you see the major difference between what the church is teaching and what the Christ was teaching ?
The major difference is very clear, if you deny it because you don't want to see it I won't be able to help you. It's your choice to either admit this clear and obvious difference or to deny it, but you are responsible for your choice, it's either an eternal life in paradise or an eternal life in hell.
Jesus Pbuh believed that the Father is his God, this is what he was saying to the people, yet the church is just throwing the teaching of the Christ in the bin and claiming that he is God.
John 20
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
You can either follow the teaching of the Christ or the teaching of the church, you can't follow both because they are completely different.
The only phrase in the whole Bible that explains frankly the faith of Trinity is spurious and you know this. Nothing in the whole Bible explains the faith of Trinity frankly.
I challenge you to show me an authentic phrase in the whole Bible frankly speaking about Trinity.
The word (Trinity) is not even mentioned in the Bible. Trinity is no more than the understanding of some of the early fathers in the 2nd century to the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. It was declared by the church to be the true faith of Christianity at the end of the 4th century after many debates between the different churches. How can I believe in such a faith?
If you see that the concept of a one God in Islam is just borrowed from Judaism and Christianity, then actually there is no use of this discussion, you just have fixed ideas that you don't want to change.اقتباس:
The Jews and Christians were saying God is and was one way before Islam's prophet was born. It is an imperfectly borrowed concept, IMHO, just as is the virgin birth of Jesus which came from the NT Bible first!
God is one, this is a fact. God sent his messengers, for example Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them all. God told every messenger to tell the people that he is one and there is no god other than him.
We can make stupid claims, you can claim that the concept of one God in Islam is borrowed from both Judaism and Christianity, a jewish can claim that Jesus Pbuh borrowed the concept of one God from Moses Pbuh, an atheist can claim that Moses Pbuh borrowed the concept of one God from the pharoah Akhenaten, there is no limit to such stupid claims.
Regarding the virgin birth, and your claim that Islam borrowed it from the NT, I answered this stupid silly ridiculous claim many times but you just keep repeating the same claim.
Again I will repeat the answer of this stupid claim for the last time. The virgin birth story is a true story. Luke knew about this story because he did an effort to know evrything about Christ since the beginning of his life, so he wrote this story in his message to Theophilus. Later on, the church took the message of Luke to Theophilus and considered it the word of God and made it a part of the NT.
600 years later, God sent prophet Muhammad to mankind, and he sent a book with him, the holy Quran. In this book, God mentioned the stories of some of the previous prophets, one of them was prophet Jesus Pbuh, since his birth was a miracle showing the power of God, God mentined the story of his virgin birth in the holy Quran.
Yet, God mentioned in the holy Quran some details about the virgin birth that were not mentioned in the message of Luke to Theophilus, which was later on considered as the word of God by the church.
God mentioned in the holy Quran that virgin Mary was sad at the time of the birth of Jesus and she wished that she died before it, because she was afraid that the people will say that she committed adultery and Jesus Pbuh spoke to her just after his birth and told her not to be sad and to eat dates and drink water and be pleased and not to answer people when they attack her and claim that she committed adultery, and when the people saw her carrying him they began to think that she committed adultery but she pointed to her kid Jesus Pbuh and he spoke and that his first words to the people were ( I am the servant of God) and he told the people that God made him a prophet. All these details were not mentioned in Luke's message to Theophilus, which was later on considered by the church to be the word of God, but were mentioned in the holy Quran.
Surely, you didn't.اقتباس:
I did address all your points.
Address the following :اقتباس:
What is missing that I didn't address?
1- All what has been mentioned in my posts after your last post.tha2- How do you believe that Jesus Pbuh was God although he declared that the Father was the only true God and was his God and although he used to pray to the Father and although he didn't know when was the hour and although he was a man like other men who used to eat, drink, defecate and urinate and who used like other men to have a sexual desire ?
3- If you admit that the Bible contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts, how do you believe it is the word of God? How do you trust the stories of the Bible? Who knows maybe they are wrong like other errors in the Bible? Maybe the story of the crucifixion and rising again in the third day is a false story. Who knows? How can you trust the Bible as a source of your faith if it contains errors, contradictions and spurious parts?
4- How do you explain the false prophecies of the Bible and the true prophecies of Islam?
5- How do you explain the plagarism of the concept of the Logos by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo who was a heretic jew that was alive at the time of Jesus Pbuh ?
Do you mean the link that shows texts written by Catholic bishops showing that they believe that virgin Mary is divine and has transformed into God?اقتباس:
I even followed the link you gave and responded in a different way what I had already responded to.
Actually, you have not answered these texts at all, you just ignored them.
In fact, you are now avoiding using excessive emotions as you used to do before, and this is good.اقتباس:
You seem to blow off all I say as emotion, but that is not very convincing in a debate or discussion.
This was discussed earlier.اقتباس:
Please tell me straight out how many times did you have to post before you could post directly?
I will try again to answer you.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I never said Jesus was God the father. I have been consistent to say He is the word of God incarnate or the son of God. He prayed to His father. Prayer is communication. It is not just Him speaking to God but God speaking to Jesus. Jesus calls the father His God, but the father calls Jesus God as well Heb. 1. He also calls Jesus His beloved Son.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I also said since Jesus is the word of God, he is eternal and uncreated. That is why Jesus is the only prophet that could say before Abraham was I am or the only prophet that could forgive sin and accept worship as Jesus did. Jesus was limited as man. He was less than God in function, office and position , but equal in nature, essence and character. That is why he could say "If you have seen me you have seen the father"This thoroughly answers this question.
Because the central gospel message is totally and completely in tact. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe Jesus is the word of God. The Bible contains a lot of the words of God, but it is like a story or history book of man's failures and God's interaction and interventions. It is sought of like your hadiths and nothing like the Quran is supposed to be. I don't believe the Quran is God's word either. Now, I believe God can speak to us in a small still voice using Scripture; then it becomes the word of God to us. This answers your question here as well.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
There are no false prophecies in the Bible, and there are no prophecies I know of in the Quran. Saying someone will win a battle and that happens could be a lucky guess or a calculated probability and not a prophecy.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I had answered this in another thread mentioning your name, because you closed this thread and now opened it again. Make up your mind keep it open or closed. Philo and John could've gotten that information from a common source, but this cannot be said about the virgin birth of Jesus; it could only have been borrowed from the original source which is the NT Bible. Therefore, the reason the original source gives for Jesus' virgin birth should be accepted and not a secondary source that imperfectly borrows from the original Scriptures.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I didn't see this link. Please post it again, but note that Catholics are not necessarily Biblical Christians. If they worship Mary, consider her divine, and transformed into God, they are not following Christianity, and they are committing idolatry. I have seen Catholics kissing stone statues of saints and Mary in the church, but I don't see how that is any different than Muslims kissing a black stone at the Kaaba. Most Catholic Christians resemble adherents to Islam, IMHO. Most Catholics are nominal Christians. I see Islam as a reaction to Catholicism which is a misconception of true Biblical Christianity like you are hearing from yours truly.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
I am glad you approve.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Discussed but not answered. How many posts do we have to make to be able to post directly? Is there a double standard for non Muslims?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة 3abd Arahman
Blessings