Trinity and development of doctorine

[Burninglight]

Wow, I bet you confuse a lot of Christians.

It is true that 1Jn 5:7 is an interpolation, but that doesn't hurt the concept of God's tri-unity or the central message of the gospel. Unlike the recompilation of the Quran by Uthman which involved the burning of the original Qurans, we have the copies of the original information so we can check on omissions/abrogation and interpolation. That is why Christians tell you that verse was an interpolation by an over zealous Scribe. You cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran, because Uthman burned all after Muhammad's death, and he didn't use memory to recompile them but the help of text from Hafsah's copy then her copy was destroyed. This would bother me. Who gave Uthman the divine mandate to act as Allah's editor or to put to writing the Quran which means recite not write?

As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation. IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.

You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God. Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity. As for the trinity, I have a problem with a god who doesn't understand what Christians believed and still believe about God's tri unity; for instance, Allah implies that the trinity consisted of the son, mother and father with him being the third of three by the way he questions Jesus; "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count the three that Allah alludes to as the three we Christians should desist to say. Allah confirms a misconception when he says: they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" Forgive me if I am not quoting exactly but you get the idea. What Christians called or call God the father the third of three and who called Mary God? Not even the Catholics who worship Mary considered her god or part of the trinity.

As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus. David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..." There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word. That is why He could forgive sin; It is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am" that is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way. Even Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am" We must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"

Peace be unto you friend

[3abd Arahman]

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Wow, I bet you confuse a lot of Christians.

It is true that 1Jn 5:7 is an interpolation, but that doesn't hurt the concept of God's tri-unity or the central message of the gospel.

Very good that you admitted it is spurious
Actually, there is no concept of a triune God in the Bible
The Bible mentions that there is only one God in both the OT and the NT
Jesus Pbuh makes it completely clear that this one and only true God is the Father

John 17

3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

So the eternal life according to Jesus Pbuh is to know that the Father is the only true God
But according to the faith of trinity, the Father is a person, the Son is a person, the Holy spirit is a person and each is a god, but they are all finally not 3 persons, they are only 1 person who is God which is a completely different concept from what Christ was teaching people

The concept of triunity of God is not taught or preached by the Bible, it's just mere conclusions from christians
If the concept of triunity of God was clear in the Bible, one would expect all christians to believe in trinity, yet many christians in the past like Ebonites and Arians and many christians nowadays, like Jehova's witnesses do not believe in the trinity although they believe in the same books that you believe in
Why?
Because they read the Bible but they didn't find the concept of trinity in it
Let me paste what you said previously :

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I never said the Bible preaches trinity or that Jesus is God the father. Trinity is not taught so how can I teach on it?

So you have nothing to prove the faith of trinity, other than proving that Jesus Pbuh is God ( which is a concept that contradicts many parts of the Bible) and to prove that the Holy spirit is God ( which is a concept that has nothing to support in the Bible) and then conclude that since God is one, they must all be a one God.
So your faith is just built upon completely debatable conclusions but is not mentioned frankkly in the Bible and the only frank evidence of it is spurious
If trinity is the faith that God wants us to believe in, why didn't he mention it frankly in the Bible? Why is the only phrase that mentions it frankly in the Bible spurious?
Surely, God doesn't want us to know anything about this faith or believe in it, if he wanted us to believe in it , he would have taughted it to us
This is completely logic, but you will just deny that it's logic because you gonna follow your overwhelming emotions, so please put them aside now and think with your brain

[3abd Arahman]

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Unlike the recompilation of the Quran by Uthman which involved the burning of the original Qurans, we have the copies of the original information so we can check on omissions/abrogation and interpolation. That is why Christians tell you that verse was an interpolation by an over zealous Scribe. You cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran, because Uthman burned all after Muhammad's death, and he didn't use memory to recompile them but the help of text from Hafsah's copy then her copy was destroyed. This would bother me. Who gave Uthman the divine mandate to act as Allah's editor or to put to writing the Quran which means recite not write?

Here, there is misunderstanding from you
Let me explain to you first, how was the holy Quran transferred to us from the time of prophet Muhammad Pbuh
The Quran was transferred to us in 2 ways: orally and written
Let me give you a brief idea about both ways
Let's first discuss the oral way
The companions of the Prophet Pbuh learned the Quran directly from him and they memorized it and learned it by heart, others learned the Quran directly from the Prophet's companions, others learned from those who learned from the companions and so on making a continous chain starting by the Prophet Pbuh and ending by many people who are currently alive
This is what we call (Ijaza)
A muslim is said to have an (Ijaza) if he recites the Quran completely after knowing it by heart without reading in the presence of someone who has also recited the Quran after memorizing it in the presence of another one who has also recited the Quran after memorizing it in the presence of someone else who has also done the same making a continous chain to someone who has recited the Quran in the presence of one of the companions of the Prophet Pbuh who have learned the Quran directly from him. Those who have the Ijaza receive certificates showing the name of every single person in this chain starting by people who are currently alive and ending by the Prophet Pbuh himself.
This is how the holy Quran was orally transferred to us. We know many of the quranc verses by heart and we read them while doing our prayers without reading from the Mushaf ( Book in which the holy Quran is written) and many people know the holy Quran completely by heart.

Let's now discuss, how was the written Quran transferred to us.
Through the following steps :-
1- When the prophet Pbuh was alive, when he read the Quranic verses, some of his companions used to write these verses.
2- After the death of the Prophet Pbuh, Abu Bakr Alsedeek , his best companion, told Zaid Ibn Thabet to start collecting all the Quranic verses and suras in one place. The policy of Zaid ibn Thabet in the collection of the Quran was to write a quranic verse after finding it written and finding 2 men witnessing that they heard Prophet Muhammad Pbuh reading it. So what Zaid ibn thabet did, was collecting the Quranic verses that were written everywhere in one book or in one place.
3- Some of the companions of the prophet Pbuh wrote some of the quranic verses and suras independently, and they used to write with them some explanatory commentaries together with the Quranic verses. These companions went to other countries and the people began reading the Quran as written by these companions.
4- To solve this problem, Uthman collected all quranic texts written by the companions and burnt them and he returned to the text that was collected by Abu Bakr and Zaid Ibn Thabet which is written from the text that was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and he copied this text and sent it to the different islamic countries.
This is why we are sure that the written text of the Quran is completely preserved. The text written by Uthman is taken from the text written by Abu Bakr which is taken from the text written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.

[3abd Arahman]

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As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation.

Actually I don't see a difference between ( the beginning of the creation of God) and ( the begiining of God's creation)
Here is another translation saying that the Christ is the beginning of God's creation :
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV)
http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re3.14

Now, do you see that the Bible is clearly stating that Jesus Pbuh is created by God or you will just keep arguing ?

What's strange is that you are arguing about whether Jesus Pbuh is God's creation or not and you are ignoring that Jesus Pbuh in the same chapter in revelation said more than once that the Father was his God?

Read revelation 3 :

11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.

12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)

So now do you believe that the Father is the God of the Christ ?

How on earth can the Christ be God if the Father is his God? How can he be God while he himself has a God?

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IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.

Do you know that your concept of Jesus Pbuh being the word of God or the logos by which you mean that Jesus is divine and he is the power or the word through which God created everything is just taken from Philo, a helenized jew that was living at the same time when Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC - 50 AD) ?
Philo said that God created everything by the Logos, the author of the fourth Gospel just plagarized the concept of the Logos from Philo and just added that the Christ is the Logos?
Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Philo_of_Alexandria

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Logos in Hellenistic Judaism[edit]

In the Septuagint the term logos is used for the word of God in the creation of heaven in Psalm 33:6, and in some related contexts.
Philo of Alexandria[edit]

Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.^[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matterand perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.^[28] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."^[28] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."^[29]
Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.^[28] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible(Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.^[28]
Christianity[edit]

Christ the Logos[edit]

Main article: Logos (Christianity)

In principio erat verbum, Latin for In the beginning was the Word, from theClementine Vulgate, Gospel of John, 1:1–18.

The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:^[30]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.^[31]

John also explicitly identifies the Logos with Jesus:

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"^[32]

As theologian Frank Stagg writes: As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God,^{[Jn 1:1]} ... Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God".^{[Jn 1:1]} God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption.[33]
.......................................
Early Christian writers[edit]

Following John 1, the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr (c 150) identified Jesus as the Logos.^[49][50] Like Philo, Justin also identified the Logos with the Angel of the Lord, and used this as a way of arguing for Christianity to Jews:

I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos^[51]

In his First Apology, Justin used the Stoic concept of the Logos as a way of arguing for Christianity to non-Jews. Since a Greek audience would accept this concept, his argument could concentrate on identifying this Logos with Jesus.^[49] However, Justin does not go so far as to articulate a fully consistent doctrine of the Logos.^[49]

Do you now believe that the concept of the Logos was just copied from Philo ?

[3abd Arahman]

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You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God.

I don't know what exactly do you mean? and what is the source of this strange claim?
You are claiming that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name
Prove your claim!
In Islam, God has many names, which are called الأسماء الحسنى ( Alasma Alhusna, which means the best names)
Many of them are mentioned in the holy Quran, and they are known by all muslims not just Prophet Muhammad Pbuh
Just prove your claim !

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Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity.

Surely, Allah is God's name.
Probably you are saying this stupid claim, which many of the christians who don't know arabic keep repeating. On the other hand, you will never find an arab christian saying this claim You know why?
Because Allah الله is the word used by both muslims and arab christians to refer to God.
If you read the Bible in arabic, everytime you read the word ( God), the arabic Bible will use the word ( Allah).
Even Jesus Pbuh used the word Allah. He used to speak in aramaic. Check this link to know the aramaic word for ( God)
http://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

You have to write the english word ( God) in the required space, to see the aramaic word, and then tap (searh)
You will find that this is the pronounciation of the aramaic word is :

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[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: right"]Pronunciation:[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5"](Eastern) AaLaH
(Western) AaLoH[/TD]
[/TR]

Sure. this word is very close to the arabic word Allah.

[3abd Arahman]

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As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus.

NO, surely this word is referring to David not Jesus Pbuh.
Let's read Psalms 2 again :

7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


The speaker here is saying ( The Lord said to me), so it is clear that he is speaking about himself, not about one of his descendants

Who is the speaker here?
It's surely David Pbuh before Jesus was born by hundreds of years.

The jews understood that the begotten son of God here is king David and they understood from this title that God loves king David, not that king David is divine and that they should worship him.

Read Rashi's commentary on the Tanach :
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

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[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.[/TD]
[TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]


[TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”[/TD]

But the author of the epistle to Hebrews, just wanted to prove that Jesus is the son of God from the OT, so he claimed that Psalms 2 and 2 sam. 7 are both about Jesus, although the former is about king David and the latter is about king Solomon.

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David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..."

Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved son
According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
So what's the difference?
The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!

Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12

17This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…

So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?

Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.

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There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word.

I told you before that the concept of the word or logos being divine and being the first born of God and that everything was created through the Logos is just taken from Philo, who was the first to make up these concepts while Christ was alive
The author of the fourth gospel just took what Philo said and added that Jesus Pbuh is the Logos
If you think that this is the central gospel message, you are just proving that the central gospel message is plagarized from heretic jews