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Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

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  • #16
    المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة
    You you raise a great many points and to simplify things I choose to address a few at a time... I hope that is agreeable to yourself. Firstly, I feel there has been enough said already on the matter of wholesale corruption of the Torah by the Jews, and no real evidence has been forth coming so I see no point going over old ground... Again.




    The prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18:18 is Jesus .. NOT Mohammed. It cannot be Mohammed for numerous reasons.. Most of which I'm sure you have heard before. If you are using the Bible for your source here you have to take it in the context meant and not what you wish it to be. The context of "brethren" was only used for the Israelites.. [/FONT][/COLOR]The only non-Israelite people to be called brethren .. are the Edomites. Esau was Jacob's brother. Jacob was the father of the Israelites. That's as far back as the term "brethren" goes. Esau was a descendant of Issac, not Ishmael. Since the promise to the descendants was named through Isaac, on that basis it is understandable for Esau's descendants to be considered "brethren" to the Israelites. I think you would agree Mohammed was not an Israelite. No prophet was promised from the line of Ishmael.
    *Like unto thee... * means like Moses... In what way do you believe Mohammed was like Moses?

    *and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.* God spoke directly with Moses as also with Jesus. Prophet Mohammed claimed to receive his revelation from a Spirit.. An angel.

    Jesus said "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he (Moses) wrote about me." John 5:46

    Moses did write about Jesus. Jesus is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18. Jesus claimed to be the prophet Moses foretold.

    Both Moses and Jesus authored a Covenant... Prophet Mohammed did not.



    Let's look at Isaiah 21 in context..

    Isaiah 21 New International Version (NIV)

    A Prophecy Against Babylon
    21 A prophecy against the Desert by the Sea:


    Like whirlwinds sweeping through the southland,
    an invader comes from the desert,
    from a land of terror.
    2 A dire vision has been shown to me:
    The traitor betrays, the looter takes loot.
    Elam, attack! Media, lay siege!
    I will bring to an end all the groaning she caused.
    3 At this my body is racked with pain,
    pangs seize me, like those of a woman in labor;
    I am staggered by what I hear,
    I am bewildered by what I see.
    4 My heart falters,
    fear makes me tremble;
    the twilight I longed for
    has become a horror to me.
    5 They set the tables,
    they spread the rugs,
    they eat, they drink!
    Get up, you officers,
    oil the shields!
    6 This is what the Lord says to me:


    “Go, post a lookout
    and have him report what he sees.
    7 When he sees chariots
    with teams of horses,
    riders on donkeys
    or riders on camels,
    let him be alert,
    fully alert.”
    8 And the lookout shouted,


    “Day after day, my lord, I stand on the watchtower;
    every night I stay at my post.
    9 Look, here comes a man in a chariot
    with a team of horses.
    And he gives back the answer:
    ‘Babylon has fallen, has fallen!
    All the images of its gods
    lie shattered on the ground!’”
    10 My people who are crushed on the threshing floor,
    I tell you what I have heard
    from the Lord Almighty,
    from the God of Israel.
    A Prophecy Against Edom
    11 A prophecy against Dumah:


    Someone calls to me from Seir,
    “Watchman, what is left of the night?
    Watchman, what is left of the night?”
    12 The watchman replies,
    “Morning is coming, but also the night.
    If you would ask, then ask;
    and come back yet again.”
    A Prophecy Against Arabia
    13 A prophecy against Arabia:


    You caravans of Dedanites,
    who camp in the thickets of Arabia,
    14 bring water for the thirsty;
    you who live in Tema,
    bring food for the fugitives.
    15 They flee from the sword,
    from the drawn sword,
    from the bent bow
    and from the heat of battle.
    16 This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.


    You say..... ~ this describes the hijra to medina which is in the wider area of tema ~ if you look at the context.. It means no such thing. Isaiah 21 is a prophecy of doom on Babylon, Edom, Arabia, among others. There are no Messianic prophecies found here. This was prophesied about 700 BC history shows that Babylon was conquered in 539 BC.. It goes on to show that Northern Arabia and Kedar were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar.. Around 600 BC. So this prophecy of Gods judgement against various nations was fulfilled long before the birth of Mohammed. I don't see how you can believe this is a prophecy referring to the Hijra to medina simply based loosely on some geographical location.





    Again Biblical context does not show Ishmael was the child of promise.. It was always Isaac. The Quran does not name Ishmael or Isaac.. Muslim scholars have arrived at the fact it was Ishmael based on ??? Wishful thinking?? I really don't know what you base this understanding on. Without doubt Genesis 17:20 does indeed promise that God blessed Ishmael and made him a great nation.. You will get no argument from me on that at all. However.. A blessing is what is is.. It does NOT at any time promise a prophet will arise from his line. The prophets were always promised through Isaac.

    Peace unto you
    First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren
    You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
    1. They both came with a law
    2. They both migrated from their homeland
    3. They both were revealed to in a cave
    4. They waged wars
    5. They both ruled their people
    6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
    7. They both married and had children
    8. They both were revealed to at an old age
    9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
    10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
    11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory

    God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
    Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
    And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


    If jesus was a prophet as WE claim then trinity is destroyed , however Moses as muslims we belive he did write about jesus but apparantly not in the current so called Torah , Jesus in this case is not similar to moses especially for the fact that jesus according to your belief made the law a curse (as paul Said) and that the law is not required of gentiles!!!!

    AS I said this passage refers to the ishmaelites as god stated in genesis:
    Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

    A great nation as defined by the bible:
    6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
    7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
    8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
    Deutronomy 4: 6-8

    So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

    This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
    Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Same term nation which are ishmaelites

    Again I state other incients where the jews and the crowd in jerusalim were talking about the prophet or the messiah two awaited characters:
    John, chapter 7:”
    40 Some in the crowd who heard these words said, "This is truly the Prophet."
    41 Others said, "This is the Messiah." But others said, "The Messiah will not come from Galilee, will he?

    John, chapter 1:”
    19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?"
    20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "I am not the Messiah."
    21 So they asked him, "What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No." “




    Why would the jews make that distiction between the charecter of the messiah and a certain awaited prophet???


    Second the context of the passage describes three prophecies :
    1. against babylon
    2. against edom
    3. against Arabia

    However a closer look shows multiple prophecies about jesus and muhammed peace be upon them , the context does not actually say a prophecy against babylon , rather a prophecy against the desert by the sea , This whole passage is reffering to multiple prophecies at multiple times . All christians belive that :
    "And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .." (Isaiah 21:7)

    The chariot of asses refers to :
    "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

    If so this would make the chariot of camels riders as prophet muhammed

    As for the description of Babylon :
    And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." (Isaiah 21:9)

    The fall of babylon refers to its idols or the idol worshipping , you can't argue with me on this since most prophcies in the book of revelation about babylon also is retorical , the text also from its context is clearly reffering to idol worship

    Also it is important to note that in the king james version it is not a prophecy against Arabia rather a Burdon on Arabia:

    The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

    Isaiah 21: 13

    The case about genesis and the covinant I already mentioned above

    You still have not answered about other prophecies including the name of the prophet in the OT
    Peace



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    • #17
      المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة
      PROPHET: (Luke 24:19) And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:


      (Acts 3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

      https://bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/

      We obviously see the term prophet differently. That's why I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet... He does not fit the remit.

      All prophets are mighty in deeds and word or else they would not be prophets .

      The book of acts does not have an actual author known , it has been suggested that it was wrote down by Iranaeus. However christian tradition holds that it was written by a man named luke (not the same luke of the gospel) who accompanied paul and was his student. If this is true it does not matter since according to you this was paul's interpriation not jesus and paul never companied jesus. Plus we muslims have an extremely negative view of Paul

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      • #18
        المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة




        and pray God guides you to His truth.

        Peace unto you.
        Amen Pandora, I pray that God guide me to his truth, and I pray for you that God guide you to his truth.

        Pandora in the day of judgement God will know who prayed sincerely to be guided to the truth and did not follow his own desires, and who ignored the guidance. I bear witness that we gave you the message, and many times I felt that you were avoiding answering important questions, and diverting topics, etc whatever was your intention God knows it. I wish you well on God’s way, and I pray that he guide you.

        I hope you do not end up one of the losers on the day of judgement.

        "Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in respect of their works? It will be those whose effort went astray in the life of the world and who believe nevertheless that they are doing good. Those are the ones who refused to believe in the revelations of their Lord and that they are bound to meet Him. Hence, all their deeds have come to naught, and We shall assign no weight to them on the Day of Resurrection “ Quran 18: 103-105

        peace be upon those who follow the guidance
        قناة دعويه مترجمه

        تعليق


        • #19
          المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة huria مشاهدة المشاركة
          Amen Pandora, I pray that God guide me to his truth, and I pray for you that God guide you to his truth.

          Pandora in the day of judgement God will know who prayed sincerely to be guided to the truth and did not follow his own desires, and who ignored the guidance. I bear witness that we gave you the message, and many times I felt that you were avoiding answering important questions, and diverting topics, etc whatever was your intention God knows it. I wish you well on God’s way, and I pray that he guide you.

          I hope you do not end up one of the losers on the day of judgement.

          "Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in respect of their works? It will be those whose effort went astray in the life of the world and who believe nevertheless that they are doing good. Those are the ones who refused to believe in the revelations of their Lord and that they are bound to meet Him. Hence, all their deeds have come to naught, and We shall assign no weight to them on the Day of Resurrection “ Quran 18: 103-105

          peace be upon those who follow the guidance
          Huria, please what important questions did you feel I avoided? And what topics did I divert? Yes... God does know my intention, because God guides my every waking hour of every day. It is to honour His Word and tell His truth... And dispel misconceptions that some have thereof. It does not matter to me or impact in any way on my person weather you chose to read them or may them any heed.

          You have not persuaded me to see Islam as truth... The way to do this is not by attempting to destroy my faith, or prove Gods word in the Bible false... Or even by personal insult and ridicule. You would have to prove to me that Jesus was a liar... And He did not mean the things He said. Don't confuse the issue with Isa.. I mean Jesus.. The biblical Jesus. Is it possible for Jesus who is regarded as sinless... Even the Quran attests to His noble and truthful character.. To deceive His followers? I think not.

          I have been on this forum quite a time now, and have been fortunate to have a dialogue with many different muslims. At times it has been a rewarding and beneficial experience... I hope mutually beneficial. When there has been a cordial exchange of views and possible misconceptions have been cleared up. Of course for that to occur we have to listen to each other... And respect our differences. Sometimes muslims would do well to listen to a Christian about what they actually believe.. Not what you think they believe.

          Peace unto you.

          تعليق


          • #20
            المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
            First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren
            You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
            1. They both came with a law
            2. They both migrated from their homeland
            3. They both were revealed to in a cave
            4. They waged wars
            5. They both ruled their people
            6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
            7. They both married and had children
            8. They both were revealed to at an old age
            9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
            10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
            11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory

            God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
            Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
            And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


            If jesus was a prophet as WE claim then trinity is destroyed , however Moses as muslims we belive he did write about jesus but apparantly not in the current so called Torah , Jesus in this case is not similar to moses especially for the fact that jesus according to your belief made the law a curse (as paul Said) and that the law is not required of gentiles!!!!

            AS I said this passage refers to the ishmaelites as god stated in genesis:
            Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

            A great nation as defined by the bible:
            6 Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
            7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
            8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
            Deutronomy 4: 6-8

            So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

            This is affirmed by jesus when he tells the israelites:
            Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

            Same term nation which are ishmaelites

            Again I state other incients where the jews and the crowd in jerusalim were talking about the prophet or the messiah two awaited characters:
            John, chapter 7:”
            40 Some in the crowd who heard these words said, "This is truly the Prophet."
            41 Others said, "This is the Messiah." But others said, "The Messiah will not come from Galilee, will he?

            John, chapter 1:”
            19 And this is the testimony of John. When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests and Levites (to him) to ask him, "Who are you?"
            20 he admitted and did not deny it, but admitted, "I am not the Messiah."
            21 So they asked him, "What are you then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you THE PROPHET?" He answered, "No." “




            Why would the jews make that distiction between the charecter of the messiah and a certain awaited prophet???


            Second the context of the passage describes three prophecies :
            1. against babylon
            2. against edom
            3. against Arabia

            However a closer look shows multiple prophecies about jesus and muhammed peace be upon them , the context does not actually say a prophecy against babylon , rather a prophecy against the desert by the sea , This whole passage is reffering to multiple prophecies at multiple times . All christians belive that :
            "And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .." (Isaiah 21:7)

            The chariot of asses refers to :
            "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

            If so this would make the chariot of camels riders as prophet muhammed

            As for the description of Babylon :
            And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." (Isaiah 21:9)

            The fall of babylon refers to its idols or the idol worshipping , you can't argue with me on this since most prophcies in the book of revelation about babylon also is retorical , the text also from its context is clearly reffering to idol worship

            Also it is important to note that in the king james version it is not a prophecy against Arabia rather a Burdon on Arabia:

            The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

            Isaiah 21: 13

            The case about genesis and the covinant I already mentioned above

            You still have not answered about other prophecies including the name of the prophet in the OT
            Peace




            ​This was my last response

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            • #21
              Huria, please what important questions did you feel I avoided? And what topics did I divert?

              So many to counts, you pick and choose what you like to answer but when you cornered you starting diverting topic, for start my last question is Jesus your God if so was he, born, and carried in the womb for 9 months?? But you know Pandora it does not matter, the truth is clear, no matter what twisting and diverting you do.

              You have not persuaded me to see Islam as truth.

              Talking to you was not to convince you of the truth it is to show the truth, not necessarily to you but this forum is open to anyone who is sincere and can see my replies and your replies and make their choice where is the truth.

              "And say, The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Quran 18:29

              You would have to prove to me that Jesus was a liar.

              Our beloved Jesus peace upon him did not lie, you attributed lies to him, you will know the truth but I hope not when it is too late.

              Peace be upon those who follow the guidance
              قناة دعويه مترجمه

              تعليق


              • #22
                المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
                All prophets are mighty in deeds and word or else they would not be prophets .

                The book of acts does not have an actual author known , it has been suggested that it was wrote down by Iranaeus. However christian tradition holds that it was written by a man named luke (not the same luke of the gospel) who accompanied paul and was his student. If this is true it does not matter since according to you this was paul's interpriation not jesus and paul never companied jesus. Plus we muslims have an extremely negative view of Paul
                And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home." Matthew 13

                are the words of Jesus good enough that we see Him as a Prophet? Out of the 102 names and titles the Jesus is referred to in the Bible.. Note. Son Of Mary was not one of them. I know well who Luke companion of Paul was.. As I know well Muslim negative opinions of Paul. You are entitled to your opinions..

                Peace unto you

                تعليق


                • #23
                  المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
                  First the fact that the Edomites are considered brethren makes it possible that the ishmaelites can be reffered to as bretheren because if the israelites at that time, who were about the fifth or sixth generation after Jacob (israel), were reffered to as bretheren to the, lets say for example and for the sake of argument, edomites then that would mean they have been considered bretheren because they have a common father. This also can apply to the ishmaelites where they meet with the israelites in Abraham , so in return they can be considered bretheren. Therefore since bretheren can be reffered to cousins then it is appliable to reffer to the ishmaelites and other distant cousins as bretheren


                  makes it possible.... for the sake of argument.... Also can apply... You are putting your own interpretation on the scriptures here. Which does not change the fact the the Bible is very clear that the Ishmaelite's were NOT considered brethren to the Israelites. Just as it is clear that the child of promise was Isaac.. And from his line prophets would come. Not even the Quran backs up your supposition that Ishmael was the child of promise.. As the child is not named so leaving you to interpret things yourselves.

                  You ask how is prophet Muhammed like prophet Moses??? Well they are a lot in many ways
                  1. They both came with a law
                  2. They both migrated from their homeland
                  3. They both were revealed to in a cave
                  4. They waged wars
                  5. They both ruled their people
                  6. They are both from a natural birth (not virgin for the sake of argument)
                  7. They both married and had children
                  8. They both were revealed to at an old age
                  9. They both came with a holy book (torah and Quran) as an individual book at its time not a fullfillement
                  10. They both were raised orphans (separate from their biological parents)
                  11. Prophet muhammed and moses both has moral AND physacal victory
                  these points can also apply to other leaders and prophets of the time... Solomon.. David.. For a start. A comparison should be on their works and ministry.

                  1. Ministry Core #1: Moses brought salvation to God's people from physical slavery and led them to a physical Promised Land of peace and plenty. Jesus brought salvation to God's people from spiritual bondage and showed them the way to a spiritual Promised land of peace and plenty (heaven). The ministry of Muhammad did not entail him bringing salvation to God's people.


                  2. Ministry Core #2: Moses was uniquely a mediator between God and God's people, averting God's wrath, interceding for them and standing between them and God (Numbers 21:7, 16:42-50, Exodus 15:23-25, Exodus 19). This was the core part of Jesus' ministry as well, interceding on behalf of God's people (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 7:25), averting God's wrath.


                  3. Ministry Core #3: Moses brought a new covenant to the Israelites – Moses and Jesus were the only two people in history who brought or mediated a covenant of between God and his people. The new covenant of Jesus was prophesied by Jeremiah:


                  "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
                  Jesus taught with authority a new internally-directed law as part of this new covenant (e.g. Matthew 5-7). Muhammad never claimed to bring any new covenant, but rather intended to restore the same system as in the days of Abraham.
                  Actually, the Tawrat and Qur'n state outright what the unique characteristics of Moses are:


                  "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders" (Deuteronomy 34:10-11)
                  "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses .. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.." (Numbers 12:6-8)


                  "Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Exodus 33:11)


                  So we can add two more "unique characteristics" of Moses to our list now:
                  4. Ministry Core #4: Speaking with God directly, not through angel intermediaries or dreams


                  Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses regularly heard God directly rather than through visions or angel intermediaries (Numbers 12:6-8, Ex 33:11). The Qur'n agrees with this: In Sura Al-Nisa 4:163-164 the Qur'n says that Muhammad and all the other prophets were simply inspired, but "…to Moses God spoke directly (تَكلِيمَا)". Moses is listed separately because God spoke to him directly.


                  Muhammad used to receive revelation through the angel Gabriel (Baqarah 2:97). Jesus is also described of speaking with God directly, even face-to-face. In his transfiguration on the mountaintop (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), God addressed Jesus directly on a mountain-top, just as he did to Moses. It is clear throughout the Gospels that Jesus heard directly from God without an angel intermediary.


                  5. Ministry Core #5: Performed Powerful Miraculous Signs


                  According to the Qur'n , Jesus performed many supernatural miracles (3:49, 2:253), but according to the Qur'n , Muhammad's only miraculous sign was the Qur'n (29:48-51). Both Jesus and Moses performed numerous mighty miracles which are well-documented in their scriptures.


                  If we want to look at more superficial similarities, we can still find twice the amount as that drawn by Naik and Deedat:


                  6. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were Israelites.
                  7. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were born into poor, non-influential families, but Muhammad was born into a prominent family.


                  8. Both Jesus and Moses were raised by their own mothers, but Muhammad was raised in the desert by the Bedouin wet-nurse Halimah.


                  9. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were plotted to be killed at infancy by a ruler's edict.


                  10. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were rescued by divine intervention at infancy (Exodus 2:2-10; Matthew 2:13)


                  11. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses travelled from Egypt to Palestine where they completed their ministry.


                  12. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses spoke with God "face to face" on a mountain (Exodus 33:11 Matthew 17:3), after which their faces "shone" (Exodus 34:29, Matthew 17:2)


                  13. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses demonstrated supernatural control over the waters; Moses dividing the Red Sea, Jesus calming the storm.


                  14. Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years, Jesus for forty days. (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1)


                  15. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses prophesied events that were fulfilled (Deuteronomy 18:15-22; 28:15-29:67; Matthew 24)

                  https://www.unchangingword.com/md_in_bible_dt18.php


                  God spoke to prophet muhammed as he spoke to many prophets by gabriel, Jesus as WE believe was communicated by gabriel too and spoken to god face to face
                  Mohammed did author a covenant as all prophets did :
                  And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.33:7 Quran


                  I have spoken of Covenants before.. Where does this Sura claim Mohammed authored a covenant with God? It states We took from the prophets.. And then ? Were these covenants given over to Mohammed? Which ones? Since all the major biblical covenants were given for set purposes to particular prophets. I see the only biblical covenant muslims may loosely adhere to is the Abrahamic Covenant.. But even in that you do not adhere to all the terms. I have not found anything in the Quran to suggest any new covenant with God was authored by prophet Mohammed.. When covenants are mentioned it in some way applies to the Biblical covenants.


                  To be continued...

                  Peace unto you.

                  تعليق


                  • #24
                    I would like to add one thing to Pandora's post. Unlike Islam's messenger, Jesus was God and Moses was told by God he would be God to Aaron and Israel's enemies. Aaron would be Moses' prophet. Now that puts the icing on the cake. Besides the Bible states that Jesus is the one Moses spoke of in Deut. 18; 18 way before the birth of Islam.

                    تعليق


                    • #25
                      المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة
                      makes it possible.... for the sake of argument.... Also can apply... You are putting your own interpretation on the scriptures here. Which does not change the fact the the Bible is very clear that the Ishmaelite's were NOT considered brethren to the Israelites. Just as it is clear that the child of promise was Isaac.. And from his line prophets would come. Not even the Quran backs up your supposition that Ishmael was the child of promise.. As the child is not named so leaving you to interpret things yourselves.



                      these points can also apply to other leaders and prophets of the time... Solomon.. David.. For a start. A comparison should be on their works and ministry.

                      [/SIZE]1. Ministry Core #1: Moses brought salvation to God's people from physical slavery and led them to a physical Promised Land of peace and plenty. Jesus brought salvation to God's people from spiritual bondage and showed them the way to a spiritual Promised land of peace and plenty (heaven). The ministry of Muhammad did not entail him bringing salvation to God's people.


                      2. Ministry Core #2: Moses was uniquely a mediator between God and God's people, averting God's wrath, interceding for them and standing between them and God (Numbers 21:7, 16:42-50, Exodus 15:23-25, Exodus 19). This was the core part of Jesus' ministry as well, interceding on behalf of God's people (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 7:25), averting God's wrath.


                      3. Ministry Core #3: Moses brought a new covenant to the Israelites – Moses and Jesus were the only two people in history who brought or mediated a covenant of between God and his people. The new covenant of Jesus was prophesied by Jeremiah:


                      "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31-33).
                      Jesus taught with authority a new internally-directed law as part of this new covenant (e.g. Matthew 5-7). Muhammad never claimed to bring any new covenant, but rather intended to restore the same system as in the days of Abraham.
                      Actually, the Tawrat and Qur'n state outright what the unique characteristics of Moses are:


                      "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders" (Deuteronomy 34:10-11)
                      "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of my servant Moses .. With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles.." (Numbers 12:6-8)


                      "Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Exodus 33:11)


                      So we can add two more "unique characteristics" of Moses to our list now:
                      4. Ministry Core #4: Speaking with God directly, not through angel intermediaries or dreams


                      Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses regularly heard God directly rather than through visions or angel intermediaries (Numbers 12:6-8, Ex 33:11). The Qur'n agrees with this: In Sura Al-Nisa 4:163-164 the Qur'n says that Muhammad and all the other prophets were simply inspired, but "…to Moses God spoke directly (تَكلِيمَا)". Moses is listed separately because God spoke to him directly.


                      Muhammad used to receive revelation through the angel Gabriel (Baqarah 2:97). Jesus is also described of speaking with God directly, even face-to-face. In his transfiguration on the mountaintop (Matthew 17, Mark 9, Luke 9), God addressed Jesus directly on a mountain-top, just as he did to Moses. It is clear throughout the Gospels that Jesus heard directly from God without an angel intermediary.


                      5. Ministry Core #5: Performed Powerful Miraculous Signs


                      According to the Qur'n , Jesus performed many supernatural miracles (3:49, 2:253), but according to the Qur'n , Muhammad's only miraculous sign was the Qur'n (29:48-51). Both Jesus and Moses performed numerous mighty miracles which are well-documented in their scriptures.


                      If we want to look at more superficial similarities, we can still find twice the amount as that drawn by Naik and Deedat:


                      6. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were Israelites.
                      7. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were born into poor, non-influential families, but Muhammad was born into a prominent family.


                      8. Both Jesus and Moses were raised by their own mothers, but Muhammad was raised in the desert by the Bedouin wet-nurse Halimah.


                      9. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were plotted to be killed at infancy by a ruler's edict.


                      10. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses were rescued by divine intervention at infancy (Exodus 2:2-10; Matthew 2:13)


                      11. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses travelled from Egypt to Palestine where they completed their ministry.


                      12. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses spoke with God "face to face" on a mountain (Exodus 33:11 Matthew 17:3), after which their faces "shone" (Exodus 34:29, Matthew 17:2)


                      13. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses demonstrated supernatural control over the waters; Moses dividing the Red Sea, Jesus calming the storm.


                      14. Moses was prepared in the wilderness for forty years, Jesus for forty days. (Acts 7:23 with Exodus 7:7, Matthew 4:1)


                      15. Unlike Muhammad, both Jesus and Moses prophesied events that were fulfilled (Deuteronomy 18:15-22; 28:15-29:67; Matthew 24)

                      https://www.unchangingword.com/md_in_bible_dt18.php


                      [SIZE=5]

                      [/FONT]I have spoken of Covenants before.. Where does this Sura claim Mohammed authored a covenant with God? It states We took from the prophets.. And then ? Were these covenants given over to Mohammed? Which ones? Since all the major biblical covenants were given for set purposes to particular prophets. I see the only biblical covenant muslims may loosely adhere to is the Abrahamic Covenant.. But even in that you do not adhere to all the terms. I have not found anything in the Quran to suggest any new covenant with God was authored by prophet Mohammed.. When covenants are mentioned it in some way applies to the Biblical covenants.


                      To be continued...

                      Peace unto you.
                      First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
                      As for the promise child ( who was going to be sacrificed) most of the hadeeths and tafseers which are authentic specify that it was Ishmael , yes true that the quran only reffered to the son of Abraham but the hadeeth and interpritation of the first generations of the companions of the prophet specifically stated that it was Ishmael , I am here reffering to the authntic (saheeh) narration

                      Second : There are many mistakes withing your comparisons:

                      1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
                      while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

                      2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

                      3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

                      17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
                      18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
                      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                      The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
                      Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
                      the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
                      .

                      Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :


                      33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

                      Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


                      Matthew 15:24

                      Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

                      4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

                      And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
                      2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
                      3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
                      4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
                      5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
                      6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

                      First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

                      5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

                      But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



                      And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


                      These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

                      The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
                      And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
                      Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

                      And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

                      And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

                      Surah Alanfal verse 17

                      6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

                      7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
                      ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

                      8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

                      9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

                      11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
                      Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

                      12.Wrong Already answered in 4

                      13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

                      Anas b. Malik reported:

                      I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


                      Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


                      Anas reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
                      Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

                      This is just one example


                      14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

                      difference , plus both occasions are different



                      15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

                      examples:

                      1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
                      ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
                      While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
                      2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
                      Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
                      By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
                      Habbab concluded:
                      By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
                      The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
                      3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
                      During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
                      What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
                      ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

                      The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
                      4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
                      The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
                      5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
                      The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
                      The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
                      6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
                      https://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
                      7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
                      https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

                      Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

                      Here is the interpritation of the text :

                      Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
                      (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


                      tafseer ibn katheer

                      Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

                      And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

                      Surah Al baqarah verse 124

                      The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

                      1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

                      2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

                      3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

                      I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

                      Peace
















                      تعليق


                      • #26
                        المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة
                        And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home." Matthew 13

                        are the words of Jesus good enough that we see Him as a Prophet? Out of the 102 names and titles the Jesus is referred to in the Bible.. Note. Son Of Mary was not one of them. I know well who Luke companion of Paul was.. As I know well Muslim negative opinions of Paul. You are entitled to your opinions..

                        Peace unto you
                        yes the word of jesus and other prophets are more than enough to see him as a prophet , as for the names Moses in the talmud and midrash also has many names , the prophet muhammed also has many names so this is not actually an answer

                        تعليق


                        • #27
                          المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
                          First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
                          1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
                          while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

                          2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

                          3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

                          17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
                          18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
                          19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                          The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
                          Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
                          the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
                          .

                          Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :


                          33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

                          Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


                          Matthew 15:24

                          Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

                          4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

                          And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
                          2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
                          3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
                          4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
                          5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
                          6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

                          First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

                          5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

                          But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



                          And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


                          These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

                          The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
                          And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
                          Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

                          And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

                          And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

                          Surah Alanfal verse 17

                          6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

                          7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
                          ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

                          8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

                          9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

                          11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
                          Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

                          12.Wrong Already answered in 4

                          13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

                          Anas b. Malik reported:

                          I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


                          Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


                          Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
                          Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

                          This is just one example


                          14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

                          difference , plus both occasions are different



                          15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

                          examples:

                          1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
                          ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
                          While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
                          2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
                          Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
                          By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
                          Habbab concluded:
                          By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
                          The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
                          3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
                          During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
                          What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
                          ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

                          The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
                          4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
                          The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
                          5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
                          The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
                          The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
                          6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
                          https://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
                          7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
                          https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

                          Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

                          Here is the interpritation of the text :

                          Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
                          (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


                          tafseer ibn katheer

                          Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

                          And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

                          Surah Al baqarah verse 124

                          The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

                          1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

                          2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

                          3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

                          I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

                          Peace
















                          It is not true that Moses would have said from among yourselves. If you look at Deut 17: 20-23, you'll see that Moses refers to his people as brothers. There are other places in Deut. that state from among your brothers that is referring to the children of Israel. God and Abraham HAD made it abundantly clear that no prophets come out of Ishmael. He was rejected by both Abraham and God as the child of promise. The descendants of Ishmael have a hard time accepting this fact in the Bible, and they are making up all kinds of apologetics to make it appear that he was a prophet, but both the Jew and the Christian can see no prophets come out of Ishmael and no Biblical verses speak of an Arab prophet from God that was to come. Finally, the NT bible has already claimed Jesus as the one Moses spoke of before Islam's messenger was born! Sorry but, the miracles you speak of done by your prophet have no authoritative source to the Jew or Christian nor does the Quran.

                          Peace

                          تعليق


                          • #28
                            المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة
                            It is not true that Moses would have said from among yourselves. If you look at Deut 17: 20-23, you'll see that Moses refers to his people as brothers. There are other places in Deut. that state from among your brothers that is referring to the children of Israel. God and Abraham HAD made it abundantly clear that no prophets come out of Ishmael. He was rejected by both Abraham and God as the child of promise. The descendants of Ishmael have a hard time accepting this fact in the Bible, and they are making up all kinds of apologetics to make it appear that he was a prophet, but both the Jew and the Christian can see no prophets come out of Ishmael and no Biblical verses speak of an Arab prophet from God that was to come. Finally, the NT bible has already claimed Jesus as the one Moses spoke of before Islam's messenger was born! Sorry but, the miracles you speak of done by your prophet have no authoritative source to the Jew or Christian nor does the Quran.

                            Peace
                            You claim that the bible has no prophet comes out of ishmael yet he is said to be a great nation , and in Matthew it is stated that jesus is reffering to another nation, but yet we have no answer you on this. Also you claim that it has made it clear !!! where what the bible reffered to was the covenant with Isaac but does that mean no other prophet from ishmael!!!!

                            The biblical text says it was isaac who was to be slaughtered yet this holds a huge contradiction:

                            12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

                            Genesis 22:12

                            2 Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah

                            Genesis 22 : 2

                            16 and said: “I swear by my very self—oracle of the Lord—that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your son, your only one

                            Genesis 22: 16

                            We all agree that Ishmael was older than Isaac yet thetxt says Isaac but also states that he is his inly son!!!

                            either Ishmael never existed or the jews replaced Ishmael with Isaac

                            The nation of Ishmael :
                            17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
                            18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.


                            Genesis 21: 17-18

                            20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


                            Genesis 17: 20

                            This is what jesus said which you ignored : Matthew 21: 43: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit






                            Also you claimed that Moses in Deutronomy 17: 20-23 called the israelites brothers , I am sorry but you should read your own bible first because Deutronomy 17: 21, 22 and 23 Does not exist

                            Deutronomy 17 ends with 20 :
                            20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

                            This passage here is talking about the duties of an israelite so the order is from god to the israelite believer . It is important to note that I never said that bretheren is exclusive ti the ishmaelites only rather it can mean them or the israelites or the edomites even:

                            And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

                            Numbers 20: 14
                            The fact that they were reffered to as brothers because of a common ancestor (Abraham) also gives the possibility that Ishmaelites were reffered to in the text

                            However since Moses was speaking to the whole crowd of Israelites gathered then he should have said from you or from amongst your selves rather than using bretheren. If no other prophet was out of the linage of Israel then why use such a term which can be used for cousins !!!!

                            As for the passage reffering to Jesus well there is two problems , first the multiple differences which I have stated between jesus and moses and more importantly this passage is describing a prophet a man meaning it contradicts your most fundimental belief !!!!!


                            تعليق


                            • #29
                              المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
                              First : the bible never denied the fact that ishmaelites were bretheren of the israelites it never denied it , rather the fact that the word bretheren was used to refer to non israelites shows clearly that the prophet reffered to is not of an israelite or else Moses would have said from among yourselves
                              As for the promise child ( who was going to be sacrificed) most of the hadeeths and tafseers which are authentic specify that it was Ishmael , yes true that the quran only reffered to the son of Abraham but the hadeeth and interpritation of the first generations of the companions of the prophet specifically stated that it was Ishmael , I am here reffering to the authntic (saheeh) narration
                              I repeat the Bible is clear on whom the term brethren refers to. No matter how much you disagree with it or wish to reinterpret the words to your own end. It will not change the facts. NO prophet came from Ishmael. The hadiths and tafseefs.. Are these divinely inspired, word of God or the deliberations of men? If you have to rely on the generations of Islamic scholars to arrive at a conclusion of something that is not clearly mentioned in the Quran.. Then what basis can you claim that is according to Gods will?

                              Second : There are many mistakes withing your comparisons:
                              in your opinion.. I think you mean to say... As it's your opinion there are many mistakes... My replies in blue.

                              1.The ministry of the prophet conatined both physical (migration to Medina) and spiritual salvation ( heaven through beliving)
                              while jesus's ministry was spiritual rather than physical this is a difference not a similarity

                              What do you mean by the physical? (Migration to Medina) what has that to do with anything? There is no spiritual salvation in Islam... That's in my opinion.

                              2.All prophets are mediators!!!! why is this considered a thing special to just jesus and Moses!!!!

                              Wrong.. Not all prophets mediated a covenant with God. A covenant is an unchangeable, divinely imposed legal agreement between God and man that stipulates the conditions of their relationship. It's not in the remit of man to negotiate with God or change the terms of the covenant.. he can only accept the covenant obligations or reject them. Covenants are unchangeable. They may be superseded or replaced by a different covenant, but they may not be changed once they are established.

                              3. The prophet Muhammed brought a new Law and a new covenant between his belivers and god Same as Moses but jesus came to fullfill the Mosiac Law not cancel it entirely as what paul preached: Mtthew 5 , the passage you reffered to actually says this :

                              What new law did Mohammed bring? Is your covenant conditional or unconditional? If the former what are the conditions? Jesus did fulfil the Law.. Mankind could NOT be saved by the Law, salvation is through Jesus as promised in the final covenant.. In that way Jesus fulfils the Law. This does not mean we discard the law or go about breaking the commandments with impunity. We still must obey Gods laws.. But we accept we are not saved by the law but by grace alone.

                              17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
                              18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
                              19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                              The new covenant with god by the prophet Muhammed was prophecized by jesus himself:
                              Matthew (21:43) “Therefore say I unto you,
                              the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
                              .

                              Here you are believing it is the muslims Jesus was referring to.... Why you would suppose this as there is no mention of Islam or muslims or Mohammed anywhere in the Bible... It can only be supposition on your part. This parable the "Kingdom of God" refers to the the Jews as people to whom the parable belonged. By rejecting the aforesaid Kingdom, which is what Jesus stands for, and to reject Him they reject Gods promised Kingdom. It shall be taken from you means - the Gospel ..that is Jesus.. shall be taken from you, and given to the Gentiles, who will receive it, and bring forth fruit to the glory of God. Bringing forth the fruits... in Matthew 21:34 an allusion is made to paying the landlord in kind, so here the Gentiles are represented as paying God thus. The returns which He expects for his grace are the fruits of grace; nothing can ever be acceptable in the sight of God that does not spring from himself.


                              .
                              Yes the passage in jeramiah might refer to Jesus's ministry but it is talking about the covenant with israel not the gentiles . This is clear from the context of the passage from jerammiah that the ones reffered to is israel :

                              33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

                              Jesus was sent to the flocks of israel not the gentiles:But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

                              Matthew 15:24

                              Therefore the passage of Matthew 21:43 cannot be about the christian gentiles rather the great nation of ishamel as in Genesis

                              Jesus uses parables as a teaching method to point to a future reality... the Kingdom of God which is to come. The parables are signs along the way to help us find our way to the Kingdom and to recognize our destination. Yes, Jesus was sent for the Jews, as it was firstly the Jews who had hardened their hearts against God in their zeal to follow the law or their interpretation of it. However, the Bible also teaches that Jesus brought a message of salvation to all mankind that included the Gentiles then and the muslims now. It applies to all... The Kingdom is truly God’s and heavenly and not just the product of human aspiration, intelligence or creativity. It is the fulfilment of all God’s promises and the wiping away of every tear, sorrow, sighing, and suffering. It is the totality of God’s glory and the end to all that is sinful, evil and wrong. This is what Jesus brought.. Yes God is One.. The God. Jesus revealed in His person is greater than anything you can comprehend. You may repeat parrot fashion your mantra of one G do and no associates and believing in Mohammed as a prophet. I believe you sell yourself short in not opening your heart to all possibility of what God wishes us to know. You are so busy refuting His Word.. You could be missing out.



                              4.The quran never claimed that Jesus talked to god directly , the only prophet to talk directly was Moses , Even in the bible in Matthew 17 there is no refference to this :

                              And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
                              2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
                              3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
                              4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
                              5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
                              6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

                              First this was a voice which everybody heard it even the deciples, so can we say this is a similarity between the deciples and Moses!!!!. Second the passage said a voice , we already know that the angels transmit the message of god , the passage never stated that the voice was the voice of god. Third this passage does not describe Jesus actually talking to god rather it describes him and the deciples hearing (that is assuming that it was the voice of god).

                              yes, the disciples heard it.. However, God was not calling them "My Beloved Son. I can stand in an auditorium listening to a speaker along with hundreds of others... I would not assume the speaker was talking only to me! I really feel you are clutching at straws with this. Not all messages are transmitted by angels.... And not all angels speak the words of God. It's dangerous to believe such. You are making assumptions on the basis of a few lines from a verse... Looked at in entirety it's clear who was speaking to whom.


                              5.Wrong the prophet made many miracleous , the passage you describe

                              But they say, "Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The signs are only with Allah , and I am only a clear warner."



                              And is it not sufficient for them that We revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Indeed in that is a mercy and reminder for a people who believe.


                              These verses are not denying that the prophet had any miracles rather what it is saying ; is that the quran should be enough for them to belive since it contains a miracolous challenge to the arabs in its poetic and speechy passages where the arabs at those time could not bring or develop a literutre like it or better in its excellence. The prophet made miracles according to the quran and hadeeth, I will bring some from the quran :

                              The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic.
                              And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
                              Quran surah Alqamar, 1-3

                              And We have put before them a barrier and behind them a barrier and covered them, so they do not see.Surah Yasin verse 9

                              And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

                              Surah Alanfal verse 17

                              I have serious doubts over the claims of miracles as you mention here. However, you believe in them. That's fine for you.

                              6. Does not mean anthing most prophets were from israel , Moses described like me from your bretheren so obviuosly if we take the bretheren out of the equation the like distincts Moses from the rest of the israelites , this would make your comparison of non value since Moses was talking to israelites yet he still said like me

                              All prophets were from the Israelites. At the risk of boring myself and others... The Bible is clear as crystal on who meets the requirements in regards to brethren.

                              7.. This does not mean anything , but the family of jesus was actually a propmenant one within the israelites , his mother was mary her aunt was the wife of Zachariah , Zachariah in Islam , the father of John the baptist was a prophet . Same goes for Moses his father Imran and his family were prominant within the the israelites (I am talking about their tribe israel not country egypt or roman empire) . Same goes for the prophet Muhammed, However there must be a big difference between poverty and high class within the tribe. Abutalib the uncle of the prophet who raised him became poor and he raised the prophet within this provish situation for some parts of his life , since the prophet was orphan , And this brings up the idea that Moses was in some parts of his life an orphan same as the prophat while jesus was brought up with his parents .
                              ِThe important point here is not every poor family means that it is not a prominant family or non influential

                              8. Wrong Moses was raised by the family of pharoh, he was nursed by his mother but raised and grew up in the house of the tyrant

                              He was raised by his mother in as much she nursed him. Unknown to the pharaohs daughter the true nature of the "wet nurse" was actually the mother of Moses. Mohammed was nursed by a wet nurse... With no family connection. Unless you know otherwise.. But that was my belief.

                              9. and 10 (which are the same point)This is not a similarity since Joseph was also saved and taken to egypt , however the prophet's uncle was warned from the jews and their attempts on the prophet in his infancy, therefore his uncle proptected him.

                              11. Moses travelled with his people as a migration rather jesus returned to his homeland so this is a big difference
                              Prophet Muhammed migrated from his homeland like Moses

                              12.Wrong Already answered in 4

                              13.Wrong the prophet also had supernatural conrol over water:

                              Anas b. Malik reported:

                              I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.


                              Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657


                              Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.
                              Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

                              This is just one example


                              14.I think there is a difference between 40 years and 40 days this is no simmilarity rather a

                              difference , plus both occasions are different

                              I don't think these points 9-14 you have addressed are worth pursuing.

                              15.wrong again the prophet prophecised many things too that came fulfilled here are some

                              examples:

                              1 ‘Umar reports in a narration recorded in Sahih al-Muslim:
                              ‘Before the Battle of Badr started, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, walked around the battlefield and pointed to some locations, saying, Abu Jahl will be killed here, ‘Utba here, Shayba here, Walid here, and so on. By God, we found, after the battle, the dead bodies of all those men in the exact places that God’s Messenger had pointed out.’
                              While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam
                              2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:
                              Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:
                              By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.
                              Habbab concluded:
                              By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.
                              The Messenger predicted ‘Ammar’s martyrdom in a civil war
                              3. Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad ibn Hanbal record:
                              During the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque in Madina, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, told ‘Ammar:
                              What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you.
                              ‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

                              The Prophet foretold that Fatima would join him first of all after his death
                              4. Before his death, the Messenger called his daughter Fatima to his bedside and informed her that she would be the first among his family to join him after his death. Fatima joined her father, the pride of mankind, six months later.
                              The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion
                              5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:
                              The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots.
                              The Messenger predicted the caliphate of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar
                              6. As related by Hakim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Maja, by repeatedly declaring, You should, after my death, follow the way of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, meant that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar would succeed him as caliphs. He also predicted that Abu Bakr’s reign would be short, whereas ‘Umar would remain longer to be able to make many conquests
                              https://www.answering-christianity.co...t_muhammad.htm
                              7.the prophet also prophescised the palgue of amwas , which happened during the time the second calipha umar ibn al katthab
                              https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/

                              Again.. As prophecies go I don't see any of your examples are particularly important as prophecy. Out comes of battles and such can be easily guessed at.

                              Third: If you do not know what the statement took a covenant then you should refrain from such statements which draws your own conclusion. When god takes or in other words makes a covenant (oath) with a prophet that means that the prophet is bound by that covenant

                              Here is the interpritation of the text :

                              Allah tells us about the five Mighty Messengers with strong resolve and the other Prophets, how He took a covenant from them to establish the religion of Allah and convey His Message, and to cooperate and support one another, as Allah says:
                              (And when Allah took the covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah, and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.'' Allah said: "Do you agree, and will you take up My covenant'' They said: "We agree.'' He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses.'') (3:81) This covenant was taken from them after their missions started. Elsewhere in the Qur'an, Allah mentions five by name, and these are the Mighty Messengers with strong resolve.


                              tafseer ibn katheer

                              Please read the text first , all prophets were given covenants , how could he be prophet acting on the commandments of god if not having a covenant. As for the abrahamic covenant I already answered from a biblical prespective from the nation of ishmael and what jesus said in matthew , here is the quranic prespective also :

                              And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

                              Surah Al baqarah verse 124

                              The covenant of god in Islam is given to all prophets , The previous two verses states that :

                              1. God has chosen Abraham peace be upon him and so all prophets are from his decent

                              2. All prophets before, after and including Abraham have taken an oath with god

                              3. The covenant of god is extended to those believers and followers of the prophets from the decent of Abraham but the desbelivers to not get that privellige

                              I have answered in both the quranic and biblical prespective , as for no finding anything in the quran about a new covenant this is just with all do respct your lack of knowledge with the quran and Islam :

                              Peace



                              It's clear you don't understand the nature of the biblical covenants. If you believe all prophets are party to the same covenant. As I said NOT all Prophets authored a covenant with God.. Prophets ..According to you.. May well have taken an oath with God, an oath or promise is NOT the same as authoring a covenant. You have answered from your own Islamic perspective and your interpretation of what you see as biblical perspective. You can by all means criticise my lack of knowledge in regards to the Quran.. For sure I have never claimed to be an expert, or indeed have an expert to call upon to interpret it for me. I still find it hard to understand why Allah could not made it easier to understand so we would not need Islamic scholars in order to reach the right conclusion. When it comes to MY faith, My scriptures you have less room to call.... Seeing as you have made numerous errors yourself and despite being given a Christians account of a Christians belief .. You still hail to know best!!!

                              Peace unto you.










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                              • #30
                                المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة
                                You claim that the bible has no prophet comes out of ishmael yet he is said to be a great nation , and in Matthew it is stated that jesus is reffering to another nation, but yet we have no answer you on this. Also you claim that it has made it clear !!! where what the bible reffered to was the covenant with Isaac but does that mean no other prophet from ishmael!!!!


                                I don't know why this is so hard to understand. No one is claiming there was no promise made to Ishmael. God did promise Ishmael would be a great nation. However, Gods covenant was through Isaac.. And Kings and prophets would come from HIS line because God decided Isaac was the child of promise. The nation Jesus is referring to in Matthew is the gentile nation.. The Christians who accepted Jesus under the New Covenant. What proof have you that Jesus is referring to a nation far in the future over the legacy of the nation his disciples were sent to reach out to after His death and resurrection?

                                The biblical text says it was isaac who was to be slaughtered yet this holds a huge contradiction:
                                12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

                                Genesis 22:12

                                2 Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah

                                Genesis 22 : 2

                                16 and said: “I swear by my very self—oracle of the Lord—that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your son, your only one

                                Genesis 22: 16

                                We all agree that Ishmael was older than Isaac yet thetxt says Isaac but also states that he is his inly son!!!

                                either Ishmael never existed or the jews replaced Ishmael with Isaac


                                there is no contradiction to be found here. Isaac was the only son that counted as the child of promise, because it was the birth of Isaac that God ordained for Abraham and his wife Sarah in their advanced years. In fact, it was down to Sarah doubting God that Ishmael was born at all! As she did not have faith that God would provide a son for them and it was Sarah that persuaded Abraham to have a child with her slave Hagar. Where she should have put her trust in The Lord. Your only son or only one.. Always refers to Isaac. Of course Ishmael existed and what reason would the Jews have to change the names?

                                The nation of Ishmael :
                                17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
                                18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.


                                Genesis 21: 17-18

                                20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation
                                Genesis 17: 20.



                                Isaac's Birth Promised
                                15 And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover, I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.”

                                Whatever you may want to believe God promised Abraham it does not change the fact of what God actually promised Abraham in the Bible. Which is clear. God also said of Ishmael...

                                He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Genesis 16:12

                                This is what jesus said which you ignored : Matthew 21: 43: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit


                                I already addressed this point. It refers to the Gentiles.. In accepting Christ they are the ones who will "produce it's fruit" the fruit being the results of the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels.


                                Also you claimed that Moses in Deutronomy 17: 20-23 called the israelites brothers , I am sorry but you should read your own bible first because Deutronomy 17: 21, 22 and 23 Does not exist


                                I am thinking the passage in question is...

                                The Prophet
                                14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”


                                17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”


                                21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

                                Deutronomy 17 ends with 20 :
                                20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

                                This passage here is talking about the duties of an israelite so the order is from god to the israelite believer . It is important to note that I never said that bretheren is exclusive ti the ishmaelites only rather it can mean them or the israelites or the edomites even:

                                And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

                                Numbers 20: 14
                                The fact that they were reffered to as brothers because of a common ancestor (Abraham) also gives the possibility that Ishmaelites were reffered to in the text

                                However since Moses was speaking to the whole crowd of Israelites gathered then he should have said from you or from amongst your selves rather than using bretheren. If no other prophet was out of the linage of Israel then why use such a term which can be used for cousins !!!!

                                As for the passage reffering to Jesus well there is two problems , first the multiple differences which I have stated between jesus and moses and more importantly this passage is describing a prophet a man meaning it contradicts your most fundimental belief !!!!!


                                we seem to be going over the same ground time and time again.. This matter of brethren. To what purpose, it's quite clear you cannot accept the Bible is the authority on this matter.

                                There is no problem in Jesus being referred to as a Prophet... And it does not contradict any fundamental Christian belief in regards to His person.. For Christ is all things to all men. Lord, Prophet, King and Son.. Son of man as Son of God. Any and all are acceptable for Christ Jesus Saviour and Redeemer.

                                Peace unto you.

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