إعـــــــلان

**Burninglight** · 14-07-2014, 00:44

Jeremiah 8 is not talking about torah or OT Biblical corruption. It is talking about the written interpretations given to the Scripture by the lying pens of the Scribes. One should have enough common sense to know that if the Scribes were corrupting the actual Scriptures, they wouldn't have written Jeremiah 8: 8 to expose themselves. LOL, this is a laughable argument for Muslims to use and shows Christians that they are grasping as straws to make their point for Biblical corruption.

The point is no Muslim could say when, where, who or why the Bible has been corrupted. It is just they have to say that because it is the only way they appear to support the Quran. We don't need to support the Bible; it has its established authority. Moreover, we don't deny the OT Scriptures, we just don't use it to base our salvation on it. Why do the Muslims deny it based on misconceptions and false assumptions of Biblical corruption is a better question?

One can make the argument that the lying pen of the Scribes referred to in Jer. 8 are those that have put the Quran to writing which distorts the meaning on the OT & NT Scriptures. Jeremiah is prophetic in nature, and he is referring to what is happening now or the recent past. For instance, who can tell us why the Quran was put to writing? Who gave the divine mandate to do it??? Quran means recite not write!!!

Could it be that this is the lying pens of the Scribes referred to by Jeremiah? No where in the Hadiths did Islam's prophet mention the Bible was corrupted. The Quran speaks of the torah, but it doesn't say what is, was or will be corrupted and shows that Allah sent it down. If he sent it, when did it get corrupted? Did it happen before, during or after the Quran was written? As I mentioned, the torah is a common source for Jews and both Christians and Muslims. We don't base our salvation on it; we use it for reference just like Muslims do only we respect it more than them. Islam's prophet showed more respect for it than modern day Islam.

As for this thread's topic, the word of God becoming man is not possible for Muslims to understand through the eyes of Islam; so, they should avoid the topic. In fact, not even Christians can explain this mystery. It is God's awesome power, His light, His living water that surpasses human understanding. Muslims should stop trying to use an argument that is passed finding out about God. It is so miraculous and mysterious that not even the Quran shows an understanding of what Christians believe about it let alone what makes God tick!!!

Peace and blessing to all!

***اسلامي عزي*** · 14-07-2014, 17:23

Read it...your point is? You still do not seem to grasp the point on this.. Even your Adam Clarke article does not claim that Jeremiah 8
was saying the Torah was changed by scribes.. But that SOME scribes copied and changed parts for their OWN ends.. To suit THEMSELVES.. If you read on Jeremiah warns people away from these false "scriptures". At no point is the claim made that the ACTUAL Torah as handed down from God was changed in any way. If you still persist in this notion of yours you will have to get your answers from another source. I've said all there is to say on this point.. We are going round in circles.

Adam Clark wrote :
" They have written falsely "
" they have done it again and again"
"They have written falsities "
maybe you think he is talking about the book of Buddhists.

use your mind !
the truth is shining !

Sorry.. Can't be bothered with YouTube videos

as you see i put the links below.
you can see videos when it is possible for you .

v=P4DfAT7eeZw
v=wBe-BoqSJtE

Is it Allah's plan to turn the whole world Arabic.. ?
That no matter what nationality one is or what language one speaks one has to pray in Arabic??
I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me.

It's may appear strange to you the fact that it is not permissible to pray -Salat- with translation .
if Muslim want to speak with his creator - Doaa - he Can do it in any language he wants .

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post such utter nonsense!!!!
You are truly scraping the bottom of the barrel

here is the nonsense :
Jesus the supposed God was circumcised !

luke 2 : 21

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Jesus the supposed God is sitting on the right of him self !

Mark 16: 19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Even if the differences were minor - as you sayed - this will affect the credibility of the holy scriptures !!

No.. It doesn't. Only for you muslims today

and also for Christians !

Adam Clarke commenntary :( Deut 33 )

I doubt prophet Mohammed felt as you do about the Torah and the Gospels..

the revelation that was revealed to the prophet Mohammed

has a clear message .
the Torah and the Gospel are a real words of God unfortunately they were falsified by human hands.
The evidences approve this fact !

You could try, but bear in mind any proof of this you bring has to convince a non Muslim.

ok .
I will write soon a topic .

Yes.. I accept the Old Testament as it stands because it is a true account

tell me please , do you believe in the dragon 's presence ????

Do you have a problem with Allah commanding muslims to kill non muslims?

the answer is NO .

Allah ordered Muslims to kill non-Muslims in 2 cases :
1--the self-defense
2 -when fighting against pagans and polytheists

Allah did not order - in any case - the killing of animals and the innocent women and babys !

The point is no Muslim could say when, where, who or why the Bible has been corrupted. It is just they have to say that because it is the only way they appear to support the Quran.

Muslims do not need to support the Qura'n.
when a murder is committed the question who ; when ; where;and how help us to know the real criminal .
in the bible's falsification case the crime is already committed and the responsible is known ---- > scribses ,
knowing the answer will not change anything !
but if you're determined here's the answer from Barth Ehrman's mouth !

https://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHK5MMn_iAU

@ pandora : below the link :

v=BHK5MMn_iAU

The Quran speaks of the torah, but it doesn't say what is, was or will be corrupted

are you sure ???
the holy Qura'n do not talk about the Torah 's falsification ???

please read this :

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

the holy Qura'n 4 : 46

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

As for this thread's topic, the word of God becoming man is not possible for Muslims to understand through the eyes of Islam; so, they should avoid the topic. In fact, not even Christians can explain this mystery. It is God's awesome power, His light, His living water that surpasses human understanding. Muslims should stop trying to use an argument that is passed finding out about God. It is so miraculous and mysterious that not even the Quran shows an understanding of what Christians believe about it let alone what makes God tick!!!

do you really think that the creator of the great universe spent 9 months in Mary 's venter and his life and nutrition depend on a simple placenta ???!!!!
after the expiry of this period Jesus came out saying :
Mom ! I'm the Lord and the savior !

use your mind please !

may God guide us to the right way .
Amen .

**pandora** · 14-07-2014, 23:57

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة *اسلامي عزي* مشاهدة المشاركة

Adam Clark wrote :
" They have written falsely "
" they have done it again and again"
"They have written falsities "
maybe you think he is talking about the book of Buddhists.

use your mind !
the truth is shining !

are you deliberately being obtuse? It's obvious what this text means and Adam Clarke's commentary doesn't say anything other than above... Written falsely.. Yes.. The lying scribes Jeremiah warned about. Done it again and again.. Yes.. They repeatedly made their OWN copies independent of the Torah for their OWN ends.... For a price. Written falsities.. Yes... They wrote their interpretations contrary to the teachings of the Torah. How you suppose they were able to falsify the actual Torah is beyond my ken.. Please... Use your mind and think about the logistics of such an enterprise.

as you see i put the links below.
you can see videos when it is possible for you .

v=P4DfAT7eeZw
v=wBe-BoqSJtE

I do not watch YouTube videos.. By choice. I do not feel they have anything to offer of value above the written word.

It's may appear strange to you the fact that it is not permissible to pray -Salat- with translation .
if Muslim want to speak with his creator - Doaa - he Can do it in any language he wants .

Interesting.

here is the nonsense :
Jesus the supposed God was circumcised !

luke 2 : 21

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Jesus the supposed God is sitting on the right of him self !

Mark 16: 19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Your nonsense is your total lack of understanding on this point. Christians do not believe Jesus is God the Father. Jesus was human, Gods Word born of the flesh, as He was fully human and as he lived under the law as a Jew.. Obviously He was under the Abrahamic Covenant and was circumcised on the eighth day. YES... Jesus does sit on the right hand of God.

~~~**"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." (John 5: 20-30) **~~~

and also for Christians !

Adam Clarke commenntary :( Deut 33 )

the revelation that was revealed to the prophet Mohammed

has a clear message .
the Torah and the Gospel are a real words of God unfortunately they were falsified by human hands.
The evidences approve this fact !

Before you quote any more of Adam Clarke, take the time to read about the man... Who he was and what were his beliefs. There is nothing clear about this message revealed to prophet Mohammed.. Your evidence is not credible. If it were so.. after two thousand years of scrutiny Christianity would not today be the dominate world religion.

ok .
I will write soon a topic .

if I'm still around... I'll read it.

tell me please , do you believe in the dragon 's presence ????

Explain your meaning here please???

the answer is NO .

Allah ordered Muslims to kill non-Muslims in 2 cases :
1--the self-defense
2 -when fighting against pagans and polytheists

Allah did not order - in any case - the killing of animals and the innocent women and babys !

if only more muslims listened to Allah... I guess you are just as human as the rest of us.

Muslims do not need to support the Qura'n.
when a murder is committed the question who ; when ; where;and how help us to know the real criminal .
in the bible's falsification case the crime is already committed and the responsible is known ---- > scribses ,
knowing the answer will not change anything !
but if you're determined here's the answer from Barth Ehrman's mouth !

https://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHK5MMn_iAU

@ pandora : below the link :

v=BHK5MMn_iAU

I'm not remotely interested in anything Bart Ehrman has to say on the subject. He is entitled to his opinion and to make a living from expressing it. I do not share it. I would prefer to know why muslims believe as they do about Christians the Bible in their own words... Besides its a video.. Another reason I'm not interested.

Yes... Some scribes were guilty of falsifying manuscripts for their own gain.. The Bible is clear on this fact. However... This dos not mean the Torah itself in its original form was changed and that message remains truth and steadfast with the Jews today. You have no proof to the contrary.

are you sure ???
the holy Qura'n do not talk about the Torah 's falsification ???

please read this :

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

the holy Qura'n 4 : 46

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

Exactly... Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to get you to see. The Quran does NOT claim the Torah was corrupted.... But confirms what we have been saying all this time. Read the words carefully and understand what they say.

do you really think that the creator of the great universe spent 9 months in Mary 's venter and his life and nutrition depend on a simple placenta ???!!!!
after the expiry of this period Jesus came out saying :
Mom ! I'm the Lord and the savior !

dont be ridiculous.

use your mind please !

may God guide us to the right way .
Amen .

You have no room to talk.. Telling people to use their minds when your own is rusty from lack of use.. :) I pray indeed that the God of Abraham and all the Prophets guides you all to the right way. Knock and the door shall be opened...

Peace upon you.

**Burninglight** · 15-07-2014, 03:31

Sura: 5:46 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light... Now how can Muslims claim Jeremiah 8 was speaking to the Jews corrupting the torah when Allah said he gave it to Jesus who confirmed it coming way after Jeremiah's time? LOL

**Burninglight** · 15-07-2014, 03:50

YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT BART ERHMAN THINKS OF ISLAM.

If we look at thew Quran for instance the context of the of Surah 2, it does not support the view that the Quran teaches the Bible’s corruption. For instance, Surah 2:62 affirm that the content of the Bible is still God’s salvific Word: “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.“ Rather than affirm the Bible’s corruption, the rest of the context of Surah 2 affirms the contrary, that the Bible is still God’s Word.

***اسلامي عزي*** · 15-07-2014, 14:24

Yes.. The lying scribes Jeremiah warned about. Done it again and again.. Yes.. They repeatedly made their OWN copies independent of the Torah for their OWN ends.... For a price. Written falsities.. Yes... They wrote their interpretations contrary to the teachings of the Torah

This is what we call an intentional falsification.
this support what it was said in the holy Qur'an.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ,"

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

he lived under the law as a Jew

Interesting !
the universe's creator lived under the law of the Jews !

Christians do not believe Jesus is God the Father

can you deny the fact that Jesus is God ???

Your evidence is not credible.

also you think this evidence is not credible !

Jeremiah 23 : 36

And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

tell me please , do you believe in the dragon 's presence ????

Explain your meaning here please???

dragons are a fact or just a fiction ???

if only more muslims listened to Allah

if only christians listened to God !

And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do.

the holy Qura'n 5 : 66

I guess you are just as human as the rest of us.

maybe you think i'm like a bloody vimpire or an alien with a green skin :)
maybe i' am more humaneness than you !

Exactly... Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to get you to see. The Quran does NOT claim the Torah was corrupted.... But confirms what we have been saying all this time. Read the words carefully and understand what they say
I think you misunderstand my post

i' said :

the holy Qura'n do not talk about the Torah 's falsification ???

this was a question not a recognition.
the holy Qura'n admits the Torah falsification.

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

the holy Qura'n 3 : 71

please re-read carefully the Verses :

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

the holy Qura'n 4 : 46

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

Knock and the door shall be opened

And your Lord says, Call upon Me; I will respond to you.

the holy Qura'n 40 : 60

I pray indeed that the God of Abraham and all the Prophets guides you all to the right way.

Amen.
peace with you .

***اسلامي عزي*** · 15-07-2014, 14:48

please take a look :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200348.html#post599802

**pandora** · 16-07-2014, 01:21

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة *اسلامي عزي* مشاهدة المشاركة

This is what we call an intentional falsification.
this support what it was said in the holy Qur'an.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ,"

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

this is what I call muslims reading things how they wish them to be.. :) not that it matters what the Quran says in support of the Bible.. Because the Bible stands on its own authority. On this point it appears the Quran agrees with the Bible.. Scribes falsified teachings of the Torah with their own hands... In this respect it agrees with Prophet Jeremiah and his warnings on this exact point. That you choose to read it differently is not my problem. Obviously it suits your purpose to believe it means that the term "scripture" here applies to the Torah.. All the better to bolster your belief in the aledged claim of Biblical corruption.

Interesting !
the universe's creator lived under the law of the Jews !

Yes exactly .. As a man, why would you assume differently.

can you deny the fact that Jesus is God ???

Have you been at this refuting lark for long? Because if so, I would have expected you to at least have a basic concept of how Christians view the nature of God.. Basically ... Christians believe that Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was both divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union... And No.. You will not find the words "hypostatic union" mentioned in the Bible nor will you see the word "trinity".. However, that does not mean that both beliefs are supported by scripture. Anyway, hypostatic union means the coming together of two natures in one person. Therefore... since Jesus was a man ... though not only a man... and since he was made under the law and lower than the angels, it is natural to conclude that he would have someone that he would call God. That is God the Father.
You know Christianity teaches that God is a Trinity, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To say that Jesus Christ is God is almost like saying that he IS the Trinity that would make no sense. I know you are thinking the Trinity makes no sense.. But it's my belief and makes perfect sense. When Christians says that Jesus is God, we really mean that Jesus is divine in nature. Meaning Jesus shares the same divinity with the Father and Holy Spirit. As one God, His Word (Jesus) and His Spirit.

also you think this evidence is not credible !

Jeremiah 23 : 36

And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

Credible of what? Not I'm sure what you think it means. Jeremiah 23 deals with the matter of false prophets. Do you naively believe all men and women who claimed to be prophets were genuine prophets? The Lord knows the genuine from the false and The Lord gives mankind guidance to sort the genuine from the false.

dragons are a fact or just a fiction ???

metaphorical or actual? Many times the Bible refers to Satan as a dragon.. I expect you are leading up to something else.. lol. ;)

if only christians listened to God !

And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do.

the holy Qura'n 5 : 66

What makes you think we don't? Is the Quran referring to ALL Christians past and future here? Or just a selection who lived in the locality of prophet Mohammed at that time.

maybe you think i'm like a bloody vimpire or an alien with a green skin :)
maybe i' am more humaneness than you !

Please don't swear it's not polite and not necessary. I think you are a regular guy... When it comes to who has the greater degree of humanity.. I am no judge. I would leave such judgement to God.

i' said :

this was a question not a recognition.
the holy Qura'n admits the Torah falsification.

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

the holy Qura'n 3 : 71

please re-read carefully the Verses :

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.

the holy Qura'n 4 : 46

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

the holy Qura'n 2 : 79

I really think we have covered this from every which way and it would serve no purpose to keep repeating the same. You read it one way I read it another. Let's live with it... Draw a line and move on.

And your Lord says, Call upon Me; I will respond to you.

the holy Qura'n 40 : 60

And does he????

Amen.
peace with you .

Peace upon you also.

**Burninglight** · 16-07-2014, 17:55

I don't believe the Quran says the Scriptures were corrupted, but attempts were made to corrupt the meaning of Scripture as it was in the time of Jeremiah so it is now. IMO, the Quran is an attempt to corrupt the meaning of the Scripture that came before. The Book of Mormon attempted to do the same and many other books attempt the same. There was no divine mandate given to the put the Quran to writing so, how do Muslims know it wasn't speaking of putting the recitation to writing as being the corruption attempted against the Bible or scripture that came before?

As I have mentioned, we Christians don't base our salvation on the OT Scriptures, or the torah which is a common source for Jews and both Christians and Muslims. Besides, Christians don't accept the Quran as the word of God; so, it doesn't matter what it says regarding the Bible. Moreover, logic alone tells you that the Jews wouldn't tell you in Jeremiah 8 they are corrupting Scripture by their lying pens, but they would make it appear perfect and uncorrupted. So it is stupid to say this. By cutting down Scripture, I believe this is the only way Muslims can support Islam and the Quran. What do your think?

As for Jesus, I have mentioned many times that Jesus is all that God is, but He is not all there is to God. This is a mystery that is past finding out just as God is to human understanding. The god of Islam could be understood by finite man but not the God of Christianity!

Blessings to all!

***اسلامي عزي*** · 16-07-2014, 18:42

Yes exactly .. As a man, why would you assume differently.

if Jesus - as a jew - broke one of the Lord 's commandments he will be punished or not ???
untruth & insults for example ???

Obviously it suits your purpose to believe it means that the term "scripture" here applies to the Torah.

the term "scripture" applies to the Gospel and the Torah.
have you realy read this verse ?????!!!!!!!

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

the holy Qura'n 3 : 71

O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture

the term " people of Scripture " means jews and christians !

You know Christianity teaches that God is a Trinity, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
.

the OT teach us the opposite ------> God is one !
it is forbidden to worship other gods !

Hosea 13 :14

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt,
and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Exodus 20 : 3

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Credible of what?

the bible 's commentary attest (A.Clarke )
Scribes falsified the words of God !

also you think this evidence is not credible !

Many times the Bible refers to Satan as a dragon..

Interesting !
satan is a dragon !

Is the Quran referring to ALL Christians past and future here?
Or just a selection who lived in the locality of prophet Mohammed at that time.

the exegesis of AL-QORTOBY says :
the maintain of the Gospel and the Torah means :

1-the obedience to the God's commandments .
2-do not falsify the holy scriptures

This applies to you - as a contemporary Christians - because :
1- the contemporary Christians doesn't obey to their God 's commandments .
2- the contemporary Christians also corrupt the words of Gods - their Bible 's Translations differ from each other -

Please don't swear it's not polite and not necessary.

I do not swear here.
it is prohibited - for Muslims - to swear without the name of Allah .
did I' mention the name of God ????
stop imagining ! please !

And does he????

sure !
may the unique and eternal God guide us to the truth way.
Amen .

p.e.a.c.e

***اسلامي عزي*** · 16-07-2014, 19:38

please take a look :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200366.html#post599859

**pandora** · 16-07-2014, 19:41

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة *اسلامي عزي* مشاهدة المشاركة

if Jesus - as a jew - broke one of the Lord 's commandments he will be punished or not ???
untruth & insults for example ???

Not applicable.. Seeing as Jesus was considered sinless.. In fact the only sinless being to walk this earth.. The Quran agrees with this.. So are you saying you think the Quran is in error here and Jesus sinned by breaking one of Gods commandments? As a matter of interest do you know what the commandments are?

the term "scripture" applies to the Gospel and the Torah.
have you realy read this verse ?????!!!!!!!

O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

the holy Qura'n 3 : 71

O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture
O People of the Scripture

the term " people of Scripture " means jews and christians !

You seem to be having difficulty letting this subject go. It obviously bothers you some. So.. According to Islam people of the scripture mean all Jews and Christians. Is this christian sects of that time Arians, Nestorian's et al.. And all Jewish sects? That's a pretty wide brush you use to tar us all with. To be honest I have real trouble in believing an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God would not distinguish between those "people of the scripture" who followed His message as opposed to just those who did not.. And warned accordingly. Why do you think that is? Maybe my hypothesis is the more accurate one here and this warning you take for wholesale corruption of the Torah is what it looks like the Quran claims it to be... SOME Jews changing SOME scripture for their OWN ends ... For a price.

the OT teach us the opposite ------> God is one !
it is forbidden to worship other gods !

Hosea 13 :14

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt,
and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Exodus 20 : 3

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Correct.. And that's why Christians today worship ONE God.. That is YHWH God of all the Prophets and Jesus as found in the Bible.

the bible 's commentary attest (A.Clarke )
Scribes falsified the words of God !

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13827[/ATTACH]

also you think this evidence is not credible !

No.. This evidence is very credible if you take it in the context it is meant with regards to Jeremiah. It is a warning.. One of many found in the Bible.. Of false prophets and the messages they may bring. I can see you are at a disadvantage when it comes to recognising false prophets as the Quran tells you to listen and obey the prophets I believe it neglects to to tell you that not all prophets are from God, and not all spirits of light are from God.

Interesting !
satan is a dragon !

here you go... ;) twisting words..lol... I said

The Bible "refers" to Satan as a dragon.. Satan is also referred to as a serpent.. I think you know quite well what allegory is..

the exegesis of AL-QORTOBY says :
the maintain of the Gospel and the Torah means :

1-the obedience to the God's commandments .
2-do not falsify the holy scriptures

This applies to you - as a contemporary Christians - because :
1- the contemporary Christians doesn't obey to their God 's commandments .
2- the contemporary Christians also corrupt the words of Gods - their Bible 's Translations differ from each other -

Well... We do obey Gods commandments ... And we do not corrupt Gods word. As a translation is just that... A translation into another language, the words may differ but make no difference to the core message.. Are you saying the Quran has not been translated into other languages for ease of use for non Arabic speaking muslims?? I believe it has because I have an English translation myself.. So are you guilty of corrupting the words of Allah by such a translation? Or is this double standard reserved for Christians only? I thought you knew the difference between translations and changing the original message? I hope you get my point!

I do not swear here.
it is prohibited - for Muslims - to swear without the name of Allah .
did I' mention the name of God ????
stop imagining ! please !

you said the word - bl**dy - where I come from that is considered an impolite swear word. If you did not mean it in this way, then please accept my apology.

sure !
may the unique and eternal God guide us to the truth way.
Amen .

p.e.a.c.e

Agreed.

Peace to you.

***اسلامي عزي*** · 17-07-2014, 18:32

do you know what the commandments are?

here i'do not mean - exceptionally - the Ten Commandments .
here i'm talking about God 's Commandments - orders in general -

are you saying you think the Quran is in error here and Jesus sinned by breaking one of Gods commandments?

NO.
i ' m not saying that the holy Qura'n is in error .
the holy Qura'n does not say that Jesus was the Lord and the savior .
Jesus in the holy Qura'n is just a prophet and a good man .
the holy Qura'n does not mention anything bad about Jesus .
Jews treated him as a bastard - also the Gospels -
the Jews - the Talmud - considered him as a son of a Roman archer called Pandera .
in the holy Qura'n Jesus and his mother Mary were acquitted of this false accusation .

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander

the holy Qura'n 4 : 156.

1 -the bible teach us that jesus broke his own commandments - orders -

Jesus says in Matthew 5:22

anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

conversely in luke 11 : 40 he says :

Ye fools! Did not He that made that which is without, make that which is within also?

according to luke 11 : 40 and Matthew 5:22 jesus him self will go to hell !

2- the bible teach us that jesus was a big liar :

Matthew 16 :28

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

All those who were listening to Jesus died before seeing the son of man coming in his kingdom !

To be honest I have real trouble in believing an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God would not distinguish between those "people of the scripture" who followed His message as opposed to just those who did not

people of Scripture are not the same :

They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

the holy Qura'n 3 : 113

And indeed, among the People of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what was revealed to you and what was revealed to them, [being] humbly submissive to Allah . They do not exchange the verses of Allah for a small price. Those will have their reward with their Lord. Indeed, Allah is swift in account.

the holy Qura'n 3 : 199

You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.
And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses.

the holy Qura'n 5 : 82 / 83

And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.

the holy Qura'n 3 : 78

the Quran tells you to listen and obey the prophets I believe it neglects to to tell you that not all prophets are from God,

the holy Qura'n teach us : you must not trust all liars - in general - !

They only invent falsehood who do not believe in the verses of Allah , and it is those who are the liars.

the holy Qura'n 16 : 105

The Bible "refers" to Satan as a dragon.. Satan is also referred to as a serpent.. I think you know quite well what allegory is..

allegory???

are you sure ???

Exodus 7:12 Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

For each one cast down his rod, and they became dragons; but Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.
Personally I think dragons are just a quackery and a pure imagination .

We do obey Gods commandments

Exodus 20:4Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

You must not make any idols .
Don’t make any statues or pictures of anything up in the sky or of anything on the earthor of anything down in the water.

Deuteronomy 14 : 8

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud,it is unclean unto you:
ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.

miam ....miam ..miam !

I thought you knew the difference between translations and changing the original message?

in the church christians are allowed or not to worship with a bible' s translation ?????

you said the word - bl**dy - where I come from that is considered an impolite swear word. If you did not mean it in this way, then please accept my apology.

No problem .
trust me. i did not mean it.
( bloody = a bloody battle.......> 4 example )

p.e.a.ce

**pandora** · 17-07-2014, 23:03

here i'do not mean - exceptionally - the Ten Commandments .
here i'm talking about God 's Commandments - orders in general -

you really should make it clear in your posts.. Otherwise it looks like you're changing the goal posts if you don't like the answer. What on earth does that mean.. "Orders in general" God gave us the commandments which encompassed every aspect of life.. What other orders were there? The ones from men??? Beside the point.. Jesus was sinless.. End of.

No i ' m not saying that the holy Qura'n is in error .the holy Qura'n does not say that Jesus was the Lord and the savior .
Jesus in the holy Qura'n is just a prophet and a good man .
the holy Qura'n does not mention anything bad about Jesus .
Jews treated him as a bastard - also the Gospels -
the Jews - the Talmud - considered him as a son of a Roman archer called Pandera .
in the holy Qura'n Jesus and his mother Mary were acquitted of this false accusation .

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander

well.. It rather looks like you are. The Quran says ~ "I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow on thee a faultless son" (Surah 19.19)... Faultless son? From that and others the consensus of opinion is the Quran agrees with the Bible that Jesus was sinless. As for the straw man you introduced into the rest of your reply... It's of no interest.. Seeing as I don't over much care what some of the Jews of the time had to say about Jesus or indeed what prophet Mohammed had to say 600 years later. As if Mary ever needed acquitting of any false accusations against her when she had God Himself on her side! When in fact in reality you besmirch the name of her Son.. Jesus.

~*** people of Scripture are not the same :***~
the term " ~ ***people of Scripture " means jews and christians !***~

make your mind up!!! Are we the same or are we Jews and Christians ..i:e... Different.

And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.

the holy Qura'n 3 : 78

are you still harping on about this!! Key words to note.. A party ~ meaning not all. Alter scripture with their tongues ~ spoken word. Not from scripture ~ they made up their own interpretation. Say it's from Allah ~ passing their false interpretations as genuine. Meaning seems clear to me. Can we draw a line and move on from this now?

the holy Qura'n teach us : you must not trust all liars - in general - !

They only invent falsehood who do not believe in the verses of Allah , and it is those who are the liars.

does it tell you how to recognise them? Or do you have to figure that out for yourselves? That would explain why many muslims seem not to trust anyone who is not a Muslim. Which is rather sad. :(

For each one cast down his rod, and they became dragons; but Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.
Personally I think dragons are just a quackery and a pure imagination .

whatever.. Snake .. Serpent.. Dragon.. Matter of interpretation non of which make any difference to the core message.

I will continue with further replies in another post.. The posts are getting rather long..points may get missed.

Peace.

**pandora** · 18-07-2014, 00:14

Exodus 20:4Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

You must not make any idols .
Don’t make any statues or pictures of anything up in the sky or of anything on the earthor of anything down in the water.

you must not think Catholicism represents all Christians. The pictures of statues you post I would say look catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Many Christian churches have no such objects. We don't need objects to direct our prayer or either face a particular direction. We see God is omnipresent and hears our prayers wherever we are whatever we wear at whatever time.. Our prayers need to be sincere and from the heart. However.. A statue is NOT an idol. And idol is something that is worshipped in the place of God. A statue or picture is an inanimate object that some people see as a focal point to direct their prayers to God. A bit like the black stone at Mecca. I am sure you would say that muslims who venerate this inanimate object.. Is not worshipping it. Get my point?

Deuteronomy 14 : 8

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud,it is unclean unto you:
ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.

Not all Christians eat pork.. The law in Deuteronomy was meant for the Jewish people.. However.. We understand that it is not by the law that we are saved. The New Testament refers to "all food is clean to eat". - as in Peter also in Acts we see "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

Jesus did fulfill the law. He paid the price for all sin for all mankind for all time when he died on the cross. The law demands sin must be paid for. Jesus took care of it, once and for all. His perfect self-offering was accepted and his power as God was shown when he rose again. So no need for Old Testament dietary laws or ceremonies because we now have a direct relationship with God. Writing his law in heart fulfils it even more than just outward appearances ever did.

We are not justified by the Law, the Law only serves to demonstrate how as sinners we need God. Only God provides a righteousness, not from us obeying the law (which we can't 100%), but from Himself that we can trust in Jesus. Trusting in Jesus leads to more obedience to God not less, internal change shows that external rules could never accomplish salvation.
~ For example food doesn't make you unclean, but what comes out of our hearts does....

~ Mark 7
18And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

God deals with us directly...some may have freedom to eat, while others are not convinced they should. If acting in faith both are accepted by God. We are not saved by our works and following rules... only trusting in what Jesus has done for us saves us. We can't work our way to God, so He in His wisdom gave us the gift of salvation through Jesus...if we trust in what he has done for us and accept the free gift of love he has shown us.. It comes down to trust and love.

in the church christians are allowed or not to worship with a bible' s translation ?????

I can only answer for myself... A translation is acceptable.. The Bible is not used that much in worship except for lessons... And sermons are usually based on parables of Jesus. We don't need a Bible to pray. I believe Catholics may use Latin but I'm not sure about that.

No problem .
trust me. i did not mean it.
( bloody = a bloody battle.......> 4 example )

p.e.a.ce

Ok.. Cool. I get that you were being descriptive. My bad.

Peace

I will wait for my replies to your posts are posted on the forum. If I have missed any points I will address them at a later date.. Just in case you think I am avoiding the issues.. lol

إعـــــــلان

Can God Become A Man

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