I think now you know why i ask you this question !



peace to you .

Best will in the world here, I'm trying to get your point..and you won't find any Christians who will claim the Bible is the direct word of God verbatim. On that basis we would expect to find textual errors by scribes and interpolations. The fact we have so many manuscripts to compare makes it clear that when these occur it's found out. Better people than yourself schooled in the Bible have made it their life's work to ensure that what we have is what God gave us by sorting through the wheat from the chaff.

More importantly do any of these examples you give change the Bibles core message of the fall of man, Gods plan for redemption and the fulfilment of that plan in The Lord Jesus Christ? NO.. They do not, and that is because Gods message cannot be changed. Words can change dependant on language used.. The message is unchangeable.

I guess you you as a Muslim puts greater emphasis on this kind of "evidence" as you have a vested interest in proving in whatever way possible the Bible cannot be trusted as truth. Because the only way the Quran can be true is if the Bible is false.. Seeing as the messages they bring are diametrically opposed to each other on many key points you are obliged to do what you do. However, the Bibles message has stood strong for over two thousand years and none have been able to break it. It will continue to stand long past the time we shall cease to be.. Then we shall know the truth of our conversations here today. :) that scenario holds no fear for me for I trust in The Lord my God and my saviour Jesus Christ and I know He will not fail me.

May God bless you.

For sure... But don't you think it's been answered numerous times already. ;)

ask a different question ... :) :)

peace to you and have a good day.

The question is :







Why we need to change the words of God ???



Answer me honestly ?!
If i' efface your name and i ' write an other one - Rachel for example - in your passport ,
this will make a difference or not ????
peace to you .

Lol... Depends it could make a difference if it didn't match my other travel documents ;) I'm not sure this analogy is the best to prove your point.

I hear it said that there are some words in the Arabic language that do not have an English equivalent.. This I have been told by muslims usually if I have misinterpreted something.. I know in my native tongue there are words that have no English equivalent.. Yet I have a Bible in English and my native tongue and the message is the same.... Even though the same word is not used it does not change the meaning.. To use a word that has the same inference does not change the message. That's because Gods Word in the Bible is meant for people of every tongue and it doesn't matter what language it's translated into the message remains the same.

Peace

How do you think we all know the Bible had been changed intentionally?
Answer: It is because of the original manuscripts we have that haven't been changed.

Certainly this will make a difference .
If this happens you will find your self behind the central jail 's bars :)



Did you mean the ( non-Arabic) words in the holy Qur'an ???

what about the word that has a different inference ????

Mount Ebal # Mount Gerizim




you still think that the message was not changed ???




do you mean by this that you have the original writings of Paul the Apostle , Mark , Matthew , Luke, John and the OT 's Prophets ???
beware colleague !
you're playing in the Premier League ! - a joke - :)
have a nice day !

How do these changes affect the central gospel message that Christianity is built on? IOW, us Christians don't rest our faith on those changes you point out: our faith is in Jesus who is indisputably the Word of God. Besides, Muslims share in the torah Allah sent sown just as much as Christians do; so what is your point? Our faith for eternal life doesn't rest in the torah. The torah is a common source for the Jew first and to the Christians and Muslim; so what is your point?

Very likely.. Thos still not sure how this analogy works for you.. :)


Nope.. But the fact there are non Arabic words some may see as a problem. I meant an equivalent English word for an Arabic one.. Actually this is so in many languages.. Whenever something is translated if an exact corresponding word is not available then a word that has the same meaning is used. I have been told in the past if I misunderstand something in the Quran .. It's because I don't have sufficient knowledge in Arabic.. And to fully understand the words have to be read in Arabic the original language of the Quran.. Of course that could be an excuse used to avoid an explanation maybe.

Sorry, but I'm not getting your point here so you will have to explain. What is the message you feel is changed here? I post the two translations you chose and add the New International Version (UK) when I compare these verses I can't see any difference between them in regards to the message they each convey.

Deuteronomy 11:26-32Lexham English Bible (LEB)


26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of Yahweh your God that I am commanding you today, 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of Yahweh your God, but rather you turn from the way that I am commanding you today to go after other gods that you have not known.
29 “And it will happen that when Yahweh your God has brought you to the land that you are going to, to take possession of it, then you shall pronounce the blessing on Mount Gerizim and the curse on Mount Ebal. 30 (Are they not beyond the Jordan, toward the west, in the land of the Canaanites living in the Jordan Valley, opposite Gilgal beside the terebinth of Moreh?) 31 For you are now about to cross the Jordan to go to take possession of the land that Yahweh, your God, is giving to you, and you will take possession of it and live in it, 32 and you must diligently observe all the rules and the regulations that I am setting before you today.”

~~~~~

Deuteronomy 11:26-32Common English Bible (CEB)


Ceremony on Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal
26 Pay attention! I am setting blessing and curse before you right now: 27 the blessing if you obey the Lord your God’s commandments that I am giving you right now, 28 but the curse if you don’t obey the Lord your God’s commandments and stray from the path that I am giving you today by following other gods that you have not known. 29 Now when the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are entering to take possession of, put the blessing on Mount Gerizim and the curse on Mount Ebal. (30 Aren’t both of these mountains across the Jordan River, down along the western road in the region of the Canaanites who live in the desert plain, across from Gilgal, next to the Moreh Oak Grove?)
31 So then, once you cross the Jordan River to enter and possess the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you take possession of it, settling down in it, 32 you must carefully follow the regulations and the case laws that I am laying out before you right now.


~~~~~~~~

Deuteronomy 11:26-32New International Version - UK (NIVUK)


26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse – 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known. 29 When the Lord your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses. 30 As you know, these mountains are across the Jordan, westward, towards the setting sun, near the great trees of Moreh, in the territory of those Canaanites living in the Arabah in the vicinity of Gilgal. 31 You are about to cross the Jordan to enter and take possession of the land the Lord your God is giving you. When you have taken it over and are living there, 32 be sure that you obey all the decrees and laws I am setting before you today.

~~~~~~~

As good as... Where do you think the copies came from? They had to be copied from the original autographs.. From the manuscripts we have today it's possible to measure the accuracy of the copies made through the ages which is enables us to see what was added as postscripts and marginal notes and footnotes. For something to be a copy there has to be an original as it's source. As to the claim the originals were somehow lost... Well.. I find that quite preposterous!!! Why you would think the bible prophets, scribes Jews and Christians would be so careless as to just lose manuscripts that they believed contained the divine message of God is quite frankly ludicrous.

Premier League.... Indeedy... I think not.. Lol. :))))

peace to you.

At least we can go back to the source of what was copied to check, but you cannot do this, because Uthman destroyed the source of his Quranic recompilation. No one can check to see how well he copied from Hafsah's original copy that was destroyed as well.
We had kept the thousands of differing copies, but none of them differ when it comes to the central gospel message. As I mentioned, we don't base our salvation on the torah which is a common source for both of us whether you except it or not.

As a Muslim i 'can ' t deny that the Torah is the Word of God [ Allah ]
i also think that this book was falsified by human hands
This fact is attested by the Torah itself !



Jeremiah 8 : 8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

Isaiah 29 : 16
Surely your turning of things upside down




a problem ????
not at all !
I'm not embarrassed to say :
Yes, there are Some non-arabic words in the holy Qur'an .
These words were introduced to the Arabic language before Islam and become a purely arabic one.
the proof is the presence of some non-Arabic words in the Pre-Islamic Poetry .
I think now the view is clear .

and the problem is ????
maybe you don't know that it is not permissible to pray with the holy Qur'an's Translations !

first, You can not deny the fact that the Bible is a real message from God .
God tells you through the Torah ' s text you must do this and You must avoid this !
Even if you told me that Jesus him self is the message i'll respond you :
the presumed message Jesus him self was changed !

Yahweh changed his name to Jesus although the presumed message said in Malachi 3 : 6

For I am the Lord, I change not.

Are you sure ????
Mount Ebal & Mount Gerizim are different paleces in Deut 11:29
but in Deut 27 : 4 they are the same !

here is the samaritan Eng translation :



below the NIV translation :



the original writings (autographs) were lost .
they are not in the possession of any person or organization !

the manuscripts do not agree with each other.
here is the problem !






may be you don't know that the holy Qur'an is Protected & preserved in hearts not in paper or something similar !
the holy book was transferred to us through narration chains -Attawator- .
i think we will not find any chirstian person who memorize the bible from Genesis to Revelation !









really , i don't know why -Sometimes - Christians deny the OT ???



peace with you .

You are once again misunderstanding the meaning of Jeremiah 8:8.. Which if you had read it in contest you would have possibly conclude that it does not mean that the Torah is in any way corrupted. I replied to this point some time ago ... I repeat it again and maybe you will see what it actually means and stop ripping Bible verses out of contest and hoping they will proof some erroneous point you make. This is never going to work and you are wasting your time if you think this kind of hatchet job by yourself is going to be taken seriously. You are right to believe the Torah is from God you are wrong to believe it has been falsified by human hands.. A claim.. (At the risk of boring myself at the repetitiveness of it all) you have no proof.


Jeremiah 8:8: Is the Bible corrupted?


Many Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and some refer to the following verse:


"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)


1. Wise men who are not so wise
"We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite, who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses [1]. Jeremiah is addressing the priests and false prophets. He accused them many times that they were destroying the country with their actions (Jeremiah 2:8, 26; Jeremiah 4:9; Jeremiah 5:31; Jeremiah 8:10).


2. False interpretation of the Scriptures
"The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3].
Next verse, Jeremiah 8:9 shows that the wise men will be very ashamed.
The contrast is between the written and oral Law of Moses. The oral explanation of the Law of Moses was done by scribes and educated and intelligent men, who changed the written Law of Moses according to the book Deuteronomy. Jeremiah attacks the false wisdom [4].


3. Conclusion
After a review of the Gospel verse the conclusion can be drawn that Jeremiah 8:8 does not say that the Bible was corrupted, but that false written commentaries were distributed about the Scriptures. The prophet Jeremiah warned not to follow false teachings.


https://www.ibnzura.com/answer.php?la...ble_corrupted?


Amazing.. :) :) here you are putting words in my mouth.. Read my post.. I replied to a subject you yourself introduced by misinterpreting my post... That of non Arabic words in the Quran, I said " ****.This may be an issue for some.. ****" it is NOT an issue for me. So you don't need to clarify something I did not ask about. My post was to do with words not having English equivalents therefore a different word with the same meaning being used.. Which does not effect the message any. This is not just so of Arabic but many languages.

No problem for me.. I did not know it's not permissible to pray with translations. That surely must put non Arabic speaking muslims at a disadvantage when it comes to Allah hearing their prayers. How can they pray in a language they do not understand? Maybe it is possible to learn prayers parrot fashion but without full understanding of the worshipper.. Does that make sense? Why would Allah restrict prayers to Arabic language?

what are you saying here???? The Word of God is changed!!!!! May God forgive you. :(

Sorry.. I don't understand your point here? YHWH is YHWH... Unchanging.

How so? Again, sorry I do not see your point.


What proof do you have the originals were lost rather than decayed with age and being exposed to the elements? You are missing the point.. The copies had to made from the original autographs at some point.. Therefore at that point they were NOT lost.

This is starting to get repetitive.. It's only your problem. Because evidence shows that any minor differences there may be between manuscripts DO NOT in any way change the message.

Maybe you do not know that God wrote His law and preserved it upon our hearts before Islam came into being.. We have a covenant promise of this fact..

I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:33-34

lol... Have you any idea of the sheer scale and size of the Bible compared with the Quran? The Quran is smaller than the New Testament! There are Christians who memorise large parts of the Bible.. My grandmother was one such, however this was not a requirement of faith but something that happened as she read it so much and was blessed with an amazing memory... It gave her great peace and pleasure to do so. Besides memorising something is no proof of its divine nature.. If an actor memorises the works of Shakespeare does that imply Shakespeare's work is in any way divine? No of course not. So memorising something has little value as proof of anything much except that the person doing the memorising is blessed with a good memory.



What a statement ... :) what part of the Old Testament do you think we deny? How can we deny something we accept as a work of God?

Peace with you also

please read this .
Commentary on the Bible , Adam Clarke .



https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/jer008.htm


any comment ???



perhaps this German preacher - Pierre Vogel a new Muslim - repeats the arabic words without understanding !!!???





the link:
v=P4DfAT7eeZw

perhaps this non-arabic muslim pray in a language he do not understand !!!??





the link:
v=wBe-BoqSJtE

i ' m sorry , what you are saying does not make sense !!

because Arabic is the language of the holy Qur'an .
all Muslims around the world will be united to pray in the same language ------> Arabic

Logic says that the Lord does not change.
the fact says the opposite
Jesus - the supposed God - came to the world with his foreskin and he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father without it !



please re-read carefully my post and you will understand my point.

Even if the differences were minor - as you sayed - this will affect the credibility of the holy scriptures !!

the corrupted text make him in this size :)

What do you say if i give you the irrefutable proof that the holy Quran is a real message from God.



Texts of murder and terrorism in the OT :

1Samuel 15 :3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

do you accept the fact that the Lord was a baby 's and animal 's killer ???
I ask God to guide you both to Islam
Amen.
Peace.

Read it...your point is? You still do not seem to grasp the point on this.. Even your Adam Clarke article does not claim that Jeremiah 8 was saying the Torah was changed by scribes.. But that SOME scribes copied and changed parts for their OWN ends.. To suit THEMSELVES.. If you read on Jeremiah warns people away from these false "scriptures". At no point is the claim made that the ACTUAL Torah as handed down from God was changed in any way. If you still persist in this notion of yours you will have to get your answers from another source. I've said all there is to say on this point.. We are going round in circles.


My bad I seemed to have missed this point of yours. I have to wonder why you have chosen this verse.. As I feel you do not understand its meaning.. I will try and make it simple.

~~~ ** Isaiah 29:16. Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?**~~~


Here Isaiah uses a metaphor by comparing the nature of the potter and the nature of the clay that he uses to create a vessel... When we look at the two we find that all of the power to shape the vessel is held in the hands of the potter. It is the potter who drives the wheel and who uses his power to shape the clay... It is the potter who decides how the clay will be shaped... It is the potter who determines what the purpose of the finished clay vessel will be. In this exchange the clay itself has no power. It is simply dead material that the potter shapes into a form of his own liking. The clay has no ability to resist the potter except that it would be thrown away as rubbish if it cannot be adequately moulded by the potter.


God is the potter.. and His people are the clay. God has the same authority and power over his creation that is shown in the potter and clay metaphor. To think that a lump of clay can shape the potter would be considered ridiculous by any rational man. However.. the people to whom Isaiah prophesies are attempting to do this very thing. They are "turning things upside-down" by usurping God's plan and purpose for Israel. They are forming their own god out of their application of the Law, and rejecting God who authored it. They are shaping their god by their own reasoning, developing an understanding that is based on their own logic. Rejecting the potter, they are attempting to form themselves into a shape of their own liking... one that is quite contrary to God’s purpose for them.


If we apply this to todays world .. People have turned everything upside-down by accepting sin and rejecting godliness. People today form their own gods, their own systems of authority, based upon their own logic and worldly understanding. The world today is consistent with Isaiah’s testimony over a thousand years ago... that many reject God as the creator, preferring to believe in a godless universe as they say...He made me not... When we limit ourselves to our own counsel and ideas we accomplish nothing greater than ourselves. Rather than follow the direction of the Spirit, we will follow the direction of our own sinful choices. Just as it takes a lie to cover a lie, sin is covered by more sin when we choose to reject God’s plan and purpose. I hope you understand.




Sorry.. Can't be bothered with YouTube videos. Is it Allah's plan to turn the whole world Arabic.. ? That no matter what nationality one is or what language one speaks one has to pray in Arabic?? I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post such utter nonsense!!!! You are truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.. :(



I look at it again.. But really you are not as clear as you think you are in your understanding of Christianity. As your point below shows..[/QUOTE]

No.. It doesn't. Only for you muslims today. I doubt prophet Mohammed felt as you do about the Torah and the Gospels..

I can only assume this is a poor attempt at humour on your part. It's not that funny.. And doesn't warrant a serious response.

You could try, but bear in mind any proof of this you bring has to convince a non Muslim... Not those who already accept the Quran for what it claims to be. That is to say quoting verses from the Quran and hadiths is not going to cut it.. Or opinions or so called celebs etc..


Yes.. I accept the Old Testament as it stands because it is a true account. Gods righteous wrath is real and always justified. I have no problem in accepting that God knows best. As a matter of interest how do you come to terms with the violence in the Quran? Do you have a problem with Allah commanding muslims to kill non muslims?


God guides my every waking and sleeping hour. I walk the path God has placed me upon. I don't ask God to guide you to Christianity I pray to God to open your eyes and heart and show you His truth.. In the name of His Word Jesus I ask this. Amen.

peace and Gods blessings upon you.