I am only in a dangerous position according to your belief... Not my own. How dare you imply I believe God had a wife or son or even partners. That is blasphemy and you are guilty of it not I. :( for that is your understanding not mine. Do not measure me my your own lack of understanding of my belief. What are you talking about my children???? My children only inherit my genes everything else is there own. Never place yourself on a par with Christ Jesus you as a sinful man / woman are not able to stand in His shoes.. There is no comparison. Without Christ you are dead in your sins. :(

I cannot accept Islam with all the inconsistencies it presents to me. I chose to put my trust and faith in God... Never in the opinions of men. Take your faith from priests??? What a statement..!! I take my faith from God alone I am nothing but Gods humble servant and all I am and all I do I do by His divine will. I feel here you are trying to convert me to believe as you do, shameful!! And I am sorry for that because it means dialogue must end and I have enjoyed talking with you. :(

i wish you well on your chosen path. Btw.. Would the moderator who deleted my post not care to offer an explanation as to the reason why. If it was in any way offensive to your sensibilities I will offer an apology as it is not my intention to cause offence. It can be by PM if I am allowed that facility or whatever.

Peace

Why Trinity is impossible?
Along side with Crucifixion, Atonement and Redemption Trinity is also debatable and disputable?


There is no evidence or fact to support it. But there are evidences and facts which opposes it.

Bible never spokes about Trinity. All "facts" from Bible are assertions not facts.

It does not make sense.

It is absent in Old Testament.

The word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible.

Reason 4 : "The Doctrine of Trinity" is not found in the Bible.

10 Reasons the Crucifixion Story Makes No Sense



Does God exist? You wouldn't think so given the bizarre crucifixion story.I’m afraid that the crucifixion story doesn’t strike me as that big a deal.

The Christian will say that death by crucifixion was a horrible, humiliating way to die. That the death of Jesus was a tremendous sacrifice, more noble and selfless than a person sacrificing himself for the benefit of a butterfly. And isn’t it worth praising something that gets us into heaven?

Here are ten reasons why I’m unimpressed.

1. Sure, death sucks, but why single out this one? Lots of people die. In fact, lots died from crucifixion. The death of one man doesn’t make all the others insignificant. Was Jesus not a man but actually a god? If so, that fact has yet to be shown.

It’s not like this death is dramatically worse than death today. Crucifixion may no longer be a worry, but cancer is. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer.

2. What about that whole hell thing? An eternity of torment for even a single person makes Jesus’s agony insignificant by comparison, and it counts for nothing when you consider the billions that are apparently going to hell.

3. Jesus didn’t even die. The absurdity of the story, of course, is the resurrection. If Jesus died, there’s no miraculous resurrection, and if there’s a resurrection, there’s no sacrifice through death. Miracle or sacrifice—you can’t have it both ways. The gospels don’t say that he died for our sins but that he had a rough couple of days for our sins.

4. Taking on the sin vs. removal of sin aren’t symmetric. We didn’t do anything to get original sin. We just inherited it from Adam. So why do we have to do anything to get the redemption? If God demands a sacrifice, he got it. That’s enough. Why the requirement to believe to access the solution?

5. The reason behind the sacrifice—mankind’s original sin—makes no sense. Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand? Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake?

And how can we inherit original sin from Adam? Why blame us for something we didn’t do? That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

6. Jesus made a sacrifice—big deal. Jesus is perfect, so his doing something noble is like water flowing downhill. It’s unremarkable since he’s only acting out his nature. What else would you expect from a perfect being?

But imagine if I sacrificed myself for someone. In the right circumstance, I’d risk my life for a stranger—or at least I hope I would. That kind of sacrifice is very different. A selfish, imperfect man acting against his nature to make the ultimate unselfish sacrifice is far more remarkable than a perfect being acting according to his nature, and yet people make sacrifices for others all the time. So why single out the actions of Jesus? Aren’t everyday noble actions by ordinary people more remarkable and laudable?

7. What is left for God to forgive? The Jesus story says that we’ve sinned against God (a debt). Let’s look at two resolutions to this debt.

(1) God could forgive the debt of sin. You and I are asked to forgive wrongs done against us, so why can’t God? Some Christians say that to forgive would violate God’s sense of justice, but when one person forgives another’s debt, there’s no violation of justice. For unspecified reasons, God doesn’t like this route.

And that leaves (2) where Jesus pays for our sin. But we need to pick 1 or 2, not both. If Jesus paid the debt, there’s no need for God’s forgiveness. There’s no longer anything for God to forgive, since there’s no outstanding debt.

Here’s an everyday example: when I pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt. There’s no longer a debt to forgive! Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment?

8. The Jesus story isn’t even remarkable within mythology. Jesus’s sacrifice was small compared to the Greek god Prometheus, who stole fire from Olympus and gave it to humanity. Zeus discovered the crime and punished Prometheus by chaining him to a rock so that a vulture could eat his liver. Each night, his liver grew back and the next day the vulture would return, day after agonizing day. The gospel story, where Jesus is crucified once and then pops back into existence several days later, is unimpressive by comparison.

9. The Bible itself rejects God’s savage “justice.” This is the 21st century. Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice? If God loves us deeply and he wants to forgive us, couldn’t he just … forgive us? That’s how we do it, and that’s the lesson we get from the parable of the Prodigal Son where the father forgives the son even after being wronged by him. If that’s the standard of mercy, why can’t God follow it? Since God is so much greater a being than a human, wouldn’t he be that much more understanding and willing to forgive?

If we were to twist the Prodigal Son parable to match the crucifixion story, the father might demand that the innocent son be flogged to pay for the crime of the prodigal son. Where’s the logic in that?

10. The entire story is incoherent. Let’s try to stumble through the drunken logic behind the Jesus story.

God made mankind imperfect and inherently vulnerable to sin. Living a sinless life is impossible, so hell becomes unavoidable. That is, God creates people knowing for certain that they’re going to deserve eternity in hell when they die. Why create people that he knew would be destined for eternal torment?

But don’t worry—God sacrificed Jesus, one of the persons of God, so mankind could go to heaven instead.

So God sacrificed himself to himself so we could bypass a rule that God made himself and that God deliberately designed us to never be able to meet? I can’t even understand that; I certainly feel no need to praise God for something so nonsensical. It’s like an abused wife thanking her abuser. We can just as logically curse God for consigning us to hell from birth.

If you actually read history not just your sanitised version of it you would know that what you take as fact in regards to the Council of Nicea is actually a load of tosh. What you regurgitate as fact is so far from fact as to be laughable. The Council of Nicea was not called to debate the Trinity, in fact no such controversy even existed at that time. During this first age of the Christian Church, the main topic that was debated by orthodox Christians and various heretics, was the issue of the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ. These debates did not extend beyond the consideration of the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus. The formulation of the Trinity was a explanation of the nature of God that was derived completely from the Bible. The link gives an account of what was actually discussed at the Council.. It does go on a bit but if you stick with it you may come to see that your beliefs regarding the Council are not accurate.

https://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt

The concept of the trinity can be found throughout the Bible from Old Testament to New Testament. God the Almighty, Jesus the word of God, and The Holy Spirit of God. You see it how you wish, your opinion on the matter counts for little the world will turn the same, life will go on and Christians will continue to praise God according to their understanding of what God requires them to do. Jesus told us that our good deeds were nothing but dirty rags before God... You rely on your pile of dirty rags on judgement day, I will rely on my faith.

I ask you but one question.. Why on earth does it matter to you what Christians believe, what right do you feel you have to tell Christians that they are wrong?

If these words are your own then I am sorry for you :( that you should show such disrespect to the scriptures that others hold in such high esteem as their Holy Book. Your words are just horrid. I'm sure you are a credit to your Prophet Mohammed, he would no doubt be proud of you... Or would he?

I really don't know if you're deliberately being obtuse or actually believe what you are saying. It's becoming a little tiresome to be told ..as a Christian.. What I believe by your good self.. A Muslim.. Especially because you do not listen when the Christian... Me..Tells you what she believes. You have the audacity to claim I actually believe something different!!! How does that work? Is it a form of bullying, that you hope to wear a person down until a point they say.. "Ok I give up, you are right and I am wrong.. I'll be a Muslim" is that how it works? I think you need to try another tack.

It's clear you are unable to understand the trinity, that's no problem for either you or me. It's clear, by your throwing in your aside to the crucifixion, that you patently don't understand that either. Yet, the Quran does not have any satisfactory alternative point of view on this, at best it fudges over the event at worst makes God out to be a deceiver!!! May God forgive my use of the word deceiver in relation to His Holy being. Now, it's patently obvious you don't understand the concept of "original sin" either!! I wonder where you get your information from of what you actually believe Christians believe.

No where does the Bible say the sins of the parent are a burden on the child, that you have surely seen as you quote from the Bible, yet you still believe we ignore this or don't see it, or don't understand it and see every new born as somehow sinful. The Bible goes on to say we are all responsible for our own sin... Yet you seem to think that Jesus's redemptive work on the cross gives us some sort of license to sin as we wish and all we have to do is say sorry and I believe in Jesus and we are still saved!!! Get real.. Where's your logic?

The original sin of Adam and Eve, disobedience to God, was their sin. How can you believe a new born is knowingly disobedient to God? It isn't, a new born is as innocent as the dawn and has no comprehension of disobedience to God or any thing else. What the original sin visited on mankind, through the serpent was, a sinful nature... Every being is born with a sinful nature. Except for Jesus.. It's this sinful nature that draws a veil between ourselves and a Holy God, God is so holy that Sin is an anathema to God, it's not possible for us to stand before a holy God whilst we are in sin. That's why God dispelled Adam and Eve from paradise to live out their time on earth, he forgave their sin, but they still had to bear the punishment for it because God has to be just. Yet, as Gods justice is tempered by His mercy and love then God provides us a means that we can stand before Him at the judgement and answer for our sins.. That's my sins, I will not answer for my parents sins no more than they answered for their parents no more than my children would have to answer for mine. Our sins are our own. The means God provides for us, through the greatest act of agape love, although you do not see this.. Is through the redemptive work of Christ Jesus on the cross, a bridge across the void of sin, that we may stand before the glory of almighty God and be judged accordingly.

This is Gods will and message given to me through the Bible and the living Gospel that is Jesus. Your alternative, that if your good deeds on earth out weigh your bad deeds then God may forgive you, or he may not, is all a bit arbitrary for me and I don't think views sin seriously enough and it's relation to a Holy God. It may all come down to how we each view sin and the importance it has on our eternal life. Because if you see your sins are something that may be covered by your own efforts, then what need have you for God? I know any sins I commit in my life I cannot make good reparation by my works, I can only achieve salvation by the grace of God, by my faith in Gods work through Christ Jesus and by my sincere repentance. My soul as they say will be in the hands of God.

Your beliefs as a Muslim are your own, as mine as a Christian are mine. I ask you respectfully to stop telling me what I believe and maybe just ask me. However, I am seeing that from my perspective as it was always my intention to learn from each other just as you can dispel myths and misunderstanding about Islam that I could offer the same from a Christians point of view, and believe me... It does seem at time that Muslims do have a mega misunderstanding about what Christians actually believe. Yet, it seems that is not your agenda and you simply seek to destroy my faith with the hope of replacing it with your own :( that's a shame.

BTW.. Is it only my posts.. As a non Muslim.. That are moderated before possibly making it to the forum or is it the same rule for everyone? When a post is deleted or not posted would it not be considered a courtesy to inform the poster why so? Because if a post has crossed the lines, broken the rules or caused offence if the poster is not aware then one can't make efforts not to repeat the same mistake. Also if an apology is needed the opportunity to give one is missed. Thanking you kindly moderator.

Peace.

Pandora...
Though I do not get involved with Christian members here, but I am sure this respectful forum (which has the name of Jesus (Ebn Maryam)) is never going to wrong any one whatever his religion is. You ask "That are moderated before possibly making it to the forum or is it the same rule for everyone" Yes it is the same for everyone specially those who registered recently, the Muslims as well this happened to me and (to me) it was very normal. It is a normal procedure and be sure we are not going to censor or edit your posts. Here we apologize if any misunderstanding happened. Moderators are humans may be they forget or neglect. Concerning offences, it is possible the forum has past experiences with Non Muslim members who caused offences did know the standards of dialogue.. that is why they use this procedure. This is recognized and and well know and has good reputation and built a famous glory, it's doors are open to everyone (those who make offences and use bad language are excluded), this famous forum is not ready to (lose what built) because of a post or a word.

Trinity is never referred to in other verses...


Like we have:

Mathew:
1:21-23
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Matthew 2:19

Now when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child’s life are dead.” 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Matthew 2:13
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”



Why the angel did not mention (Trinity) only son? Did the (God and Holy Spirit) was with the (Son)? When the (Three) gathered and made (Trinity)?

No one can imagine God being a child!, it is impossible. We all know what child means: weak, needs help, feeding from his/her mother... How can this be God?

Of course Christians are going to explain what is (Trinity) is while turn blind eyes on such verses and avoid reasoning.

Thank you kindly for this explanation, and clarifying things for me. If ever I do cause offence I assure you it would be unintentional, it is not my way to bring discord. I appreciate we see things differently and if I err beyond acceptable bounds then I rely on the moderator to point it out to me so I can ensure I do not make the same mistake. I also take quite seriously if it is felt an apology is due to anyone I have offended, albeit unintentionally, I would like to be given the opportunity to offer one.

Peace.

I really don't understand why you are so hung up on a concept that makes no sense to you or you have any wish to understand. I don't see any benefit to either party here to continue in this topic. I believe I've said all that's necessary on this... Makes sense to me... Doesn't to you.. End of.

Peace upon you.

You can answer but not make excuses and say "I really don't understand why you are so hung up on a concept that makes no sense to you or you have any wish to understand." I did not asked you to explain Trinity, I heard about describing Trinity from Christians many times. But what I put are questions. I already knew and wrote "Of course Christians are going to explain what is (Trinity) is while turn blind eyes on such verses and avoid reasoning.", and my expectation was true.

Here are the questions again:

Why the angel did not mention (Trinity) only son? Did the (God and Holy Spirit) was with the (Son)? When the (Three) gathered and made (Trinity)?

No one can imagine God being a child!, it is impossible. We all know what child means: weak, needs help, feeding from his/her mother... How can this be God?


And if you like I have more.

Yes, I'm sure you have lots of questions in the same theme... Yet I feel you will not be happy with any answers I could give you. However, if it is answers you require then I shall do my utmost to comply.

You ask why did the Angel not mention the trinity... Why would it be expected? The annunciation of the birth it was not concerned with explaining the nature of God. It was concerned with the coming into the world of Jesus, as Christians believe the promised Messiah.
The Birth of Jesus Foretold in Luke 1:26-38


26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”


29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”


34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”


35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”


38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

We see in the above scripture Mary found favour with God, a holy son was to be born to her... To be called Son of God, and the Holy Spirit will come upon her to enable this to happen. We have the three elements of the trinity long before men had even thought of the concept. The trinity is a concept .. Not a physical thing. If you look at the message Gabriel brought to Mary the trinity concept is there.

You ask when did God, Jesus and the Spirit come together..

The three were never apart,

John 1
The Word Became Flesh


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.


9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

-------------
From this I see ... God whose power is behind all there is and all we are, His word... Jesus ... By which God communicates His will to His creation. His Spirit... By which God works His will through us. Have existed for all eternity in unity and with one purpose.

You ask about God being child in Jesus.. Jesus was born of flesh, the means of His birth though miraculous never the less, He was flesh and blood body. As a flesh and blood being born a baby then obviously would have the same physical needs as any other. Yet does this in anyway detract from the greatness of God the Father? Does the fact Jesus as His word exists within the confines of humanity in any way lessens the Power of God? Why would you suppose this... Do you not see that God exists beyond the confines of time and place as we understand it. Christians believe that nothing is impossible with God we would never put limitations on His greatness by thinking that any manifestations that God chooses to communicate with us would in any way limit His greatness. God is constant, God is unchanging.

Now, I am certain you will see things very differently to I, and that is to be expected. I have answered your queries to the best of my ability as to my understanding. You must make of it as you will.

Peace.