Allah bless you and reward you benevolent

Christians follow a re-written book, this is not enough, they believe in some mystical faiths which are not pointed to in their book, not even in a verse. And their explanations are always irrational.

Maybe you have not spoken with any true Christians. There are billions of Christians worldwide who not only understand their faith but know it to be the truth. The question should be asked why is it your concern? There are no "dilemmas" enigmatic or otherwise for Christians whom God has granted them the understanding of His word. In fact it's very simple. The dilemmas you find are your own because God has not granted you the necessary understanding. Basically it's not your path... So you best stick to your own path. Worry about yourself and your own redemption. What others believe need not impact do your life.

Peace.

Again, this is only your opinion. Based on your misunderstandings. A Christians explanation to you would always seem "irrational" because it is different from your own, also you have been conditioned to view Christianity as "re-written" because if the Quran claims to confirm the previous scriptures then it has to bring the same message. As the Quran brings a different message then you have to claim the previous one was changed. However, the onus is upon yourself to prove this to the satisfaction of the followers of the previous scriptures. This you have failed to do and so Judaism and Christianity still go on regardless.

I think you over emphasise the written word, as muslims put high importance on the Quran as a written word. This is not as important for Christians who see themselves as part of the living Gospel that is Christ. That's why your claims of textual corruption and changes by whoever do not make much difference. I would go as far as to say you are wasting your time. Your time would be better trying to convince people of the truth of the Quran not by proving want went before false, but on its own merit.

Peace

Good day Pandora
This is not my opinion, of course we return to Holy Quran for what we say, but I am afraid you forget the fact that there are Christians as well think the same way (Bible is re-written).
Can you please give me one verse in you Bible confirms one of these:

Where did Jesus mentione Adam and the Original sin (ancestral sin)?
Where does Jesus say "I came to be sacrificed for humanities sins"?

It is one of your central doctrines, but we can't find Jesus saying this. All what you do is stretching those verses that you believe point to that. It is like the backbone of you religion along with other doctrines, so it must be declared in a very clear plain text without concluding it from other verses.

And concerning your advice "Your time would be better trying to convince people of the truth of the Quran not by proving want went before false, but on its own merit. ", do not worry we are doing our best, here on this precious and significant website "ebnmaryam.com" and the entire web there are plenty of articles and researches everybody can read, you can find scientific, social, economical dimension of Quran and many other articles who confirm the truthfulness of Holy Quran in many points of view, but what we can do when some refuse to be neutral and read with an open mind?

Peace to all

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

Again, this is only your opinion. Based on your misunderstandings. A Christians explanation to you would always seem "irrational" because it is different from your own, also you have been conditioned to view Christianity as "re-written" because if the Quran claims to confirm the previous scriptures then it has to bring the same message. As the Quran brings a different message then you have to claim the previous one was changed. However, the onus is upon yourself to prove this to the satisfaction of the followers of the previous scriptures. This you have failed to do and so Judaism and Christianity still go on regardless.
I think you over emphasise the written word, as muslims put high importance on the Quran as a written word. This is not as important for Christians who see themselves as part of the living Gospel that is Christ. That's why your claims of textual corruption and changes by whoever do not make much difference. I would go as far as to say you are wasting your time. Your time would be better trying to convince people of the truth of the Quran not by proving want went before false, but on its own merit.
Peace

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? Where?

Those important doctrines in your religion (or belief) must be written in plain clear texts. But what all the Christians do is concluding it from other verses, or mis-interpreting verses to fit this heresey. It is all about this chaotic period of early Christianity and council of Nicea, when Christians force to believe in many other pagan believes that are borrowed from old Egyptian and Greek mythology. Though history tells this exact story very precisely yet Christians believe in it.

Peace to all.

there are many references to the trinity. My internet is very slow so I really can't be posting them all so I hope you don't mind if I give you a link to a website that lists some of them. Bear in mind that the Bible canon was not decided at the council of Nicea. Also the concept of the trinity is unique and is not the same concept as pagan ideologies weather they be Egyptian or Greek or Roman or anything else for that matter. Of course if it makes you happy to believe otherwise then of course you are free to do so.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

Peace.

Trinity makes no sense. Many questions rise when Christians talk about Trinity and makes it doubtful rather than (unique). I do not know if Jesus calls for share in divine in any verse in your book. When you pray, who is your prayer directed to? God, Jesus or Holy spirit? Even Jesus himself prayed and called God for help. Jesus never said, no where in Bible, to worship him as God or His son. Jesus himself is in need of a helper creator, How can he be the Creator and creation meanwhile? Trinity, crucifixion and resurrection are added "by men" later on long after Jesus was dead. The problem with Trinity is more complicated specially when we read that one part of this "Trinity" is crucified and dead, or a part is in need of the other part to help him.

I don't know why you choose to stress yourself on this issue. Be content that you do not understand it but for Christians it makes perfect sense. When God grants one understanding there is nothing complicated about it.

I don't see anything to be gained for either party in this dialogue. I feel we should at this point agree to disagree.

Peace.

Trinity, is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Bible doesn’t lay out exactly how the crucifixion is atonement (redeem) and the Trinity is formed. Whey we can not find Jesus talking about Adam and the original sin? Since there is no clear text about (Trinity) in your book, some of the Christian theologians consider this as a great chance to show their ability in making stuff up.

I read the link you put, the link says:


Elohim is plural. When God says:
Look at Genesis 1:26 "Elohim said 'Let us make man in our image after our likeness'".
In you belief this means God, Jesus and angels (or as your link says: more than two) all participated in creating universe. Here in you Bible we can replace any (Elohim) with (us and our and we), and we have plenty of Trinity verses. But we must not leave out other verses that confirm (one God)!

Here we have:
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is contradiction. i do not know why those who prepared and arranged Bible did not make effort to remove these contradictions just like they removed many manuscripts
from the Bible? to avoid such embarrassment.
Apart from being a word with contradictory Meanings against other words, at the same time it is clear that the case with word (Elohim) is mistranslation.

If there are some verses (I say if) in the Bible refer to Trinity, contrary to them there are many other verses that refute the idea and deny the doctrine. Because we do not have this doctrine declared in clear terms. If a verse confirms another one denies.


Peace

Your claims are all very well, but you have no real proof that anything has been added or subtracted to the bible in such a way as to change its core message. Why would you be puzzled to find verses referring to One God and also the Trinity in the same book? Is it because as you understand it the trinity represents three gods? This is your error of comprehension, maybe because the Quran has given you a rather muddled view of the trinity and implies it means three separate gods.. (If this is an incorrect assumption on my part I ask your forgiveness) yet Christians never did believe in three gods.. There has only ever been ONE God. So there is really no contradiction as you believe there to be.

You are of course free to interpret things how you wish, although I'm not sure why you feel the onus is on yourself to prove false the sacred scriptures of others. We don't ask you to believe any of it.. :)

Peace.

--Let me show you what the western scholars say about trinity and the bible :
** David Jenkin—a Bishop says:- “Some of the Bible statements are not strictly true but were added later (by Paul and by early Christians - only to express their exaggerated faith in him.”
Testament One and Testament Two do not have the following notions. Only writings of Paul has. They are Trinity, son of God, Begotten son (now this word is removed from later editions of Bible), original sin, Jesus died for your sins, God made flesh, Jesus the perfect god and perfect man, sin and atonement, redemption, For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life, Death through Adam and life through Christ, Righteousness through faith, Dead to sin and alive in Jesus, Life through the spirit, Through the grace of our Lord, Christ is the end of the law, The whole world is a prisoner of sin, In him we have redemption through his blood- the forgiveness of sins, raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at His right hand of heavenly realm, for it is by grace you have been saved- through faith, you die with Adam and live with Christ. This (Jesus) is my (God’s) son— whom I love, with him I am well pleased. I am the Alpha and Omega etc.
**. John Hick Professor said:- “To say that the historical Jesus of Nazareth was also GOD is as devoid of meaning as to say that a circle is also a square.”
** Paul Victor Weir Wille said:- “To say that Jesus Christ is not GOD. It does not degrade Jesus Christ. It absolves him of falsehood alleged to him. It simply elevates ONE TRUE GOD.”
** Huston Smith said:- “To say that Jesus was fully GOD and fully man is paradoxical (seemingly absurd or Self-contradictory). It is a blatant contradiction.”
** Randolph Ross said:- “Trinity is impossible to demonstrate and impossible to understand. It is against the Laws of Nature. Impossible to the rules of logic, human wisdom and intellect. Two plus two do not make five or three. Saying Trinity is like that you understand that a circle is also a square. It is mathematically incorrect and geometrically impossible.”
** . Clement a Christian Religious Scholar said:- “This state of religious scenario (i.e. Monotheism of Jesus verses Trinity of Paul) continued to exist till 70 A.D. This period was a period of fierce struggle between the two forms of Christianity- the Judeo Christianity and the Paulinic Christianity. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem fell to Roman Emperor Titus. So under such disturbed conditions the Paulinic form of Christianity” won. Thereafter the situation reversed and Paul won a victory over Judeo Christianity of Jesus. This victory was not a mandate from GOD but it was through the ignorance and weakness of their faith in the teachings of Jesus. Paul took a path, which was clearly against the Divine Law. Jesus while biding his time in heaven must be lamenting over the conduct and behaviour of his followers. Surely Jesus is the most unfortunate of all messengers of GOD who has been grossly misunderstood.”
** Vladimir Lenin said:- How powerless is the GOD of Christendom! He cannot even forgive a man without shedding the blood of his own son

I do not understand what you are trying to prove by this information.. Apart from the fact the world is full of people of differing opinions and many like to express them. What to you defines a "Christian scholar"? Or even a "western scholar" and why do you believe their opinion is necessarily correct? Maybe because you believe it kind of proves your point. Well, it doesn't really. The first name you chose I have heard of Bishop David Jenkins I found an article that you may find of interest on "heretical vicars".. Being a vicar, at least in the Anglican Church does not mean that person is particularly holy, Right and always speaks truth.. They are but mortal men and like all other sinners will answer for their sins before God at the judgement.

Honestly, do you think I could not find if I wished to trawl the internet many "Islamic scholars" that would have differing opinions about Islam. Or even ex muslims who would speak of their dissatisfaction with the truth of Islam? For what purpose? Sorry I would not wish to waste my time, and you should not waste yours in similar pursuits. If God would wish me to believe another truth then God will show me. It's simples.. I put my trust and faith in God alone.

Here's the article...

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/393479.stm

Peace.

Yes we have difference in opinion between our scholars, but be careful, the differences in opinion are about, I can say, secondary cases or less important concerns and issues. But our main doctrines and believes are stable and fixed they all agree upon. The case with your Christianity is different many of your theologians have different views to Trinity or Resurrection which are your religion main doctrines, which are still disputable and debatable. Peace to you...

Excuse me pandora.