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  • #31
    Excuse me, I will close this thread till I finish my answer completely so that you don't interrupt me. As soon as I finish my answer, I'll open the thread and give you the chance to answer. I expect finishing my answer tomorrow.
    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

    تعليق

    • #32
      المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة
      As for Revelation 3 it states He is the beginning of the creation of God; it doesn't say he is the beginning of God's creation. You are coming to conclusions making it say what you want to believe, because what that verse means is that Jesus as the word of God who is the beginner of the beginning of creation.
      Actually I don't see a difference between ( the beginning of the creation of God) and ( the begiining of God's creation)
      Here is another translation saying that the Christ is the beginning of God's creation :
      14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the pAmen, qthe faithful and true witness, rthe beginning of God’s creation. (ESV)
      https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Re3.14

      Now, do you see that the Bible is clearly stating that Jesus Pbuh is created by God or you will just keep arguing ?

      What's strange is that you are arguing about whether Jesus Pbuh is God's creation or not and you are ignoring that Jesus Pbuh in the same chapter in revelation said more than once that the Father was his God?

      Read revelation 3 :

      11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.

      12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

      13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

      14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

      15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

      So according to your Bible the Father is the God of the Christ, Christ refers to him as (my God)

      So now do you believe that the Father is the God of the Christ ?

      How on earth can the Christ be God if the Father is his God? How can he be God while he himself has a God?

      IOW, we both believe Jesus is the word of God as you mentioned; therefore, logic and reason alone should tell you that He is uncreated and eternal. He is the Word God used to create all things. You shouldn't mine quote the Bible to make it say what you want my friend. I notice you didn't quote that "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
      Do you know that your concept of Jesus Pbuh being the word of God or the logos by which you mean that Jesus is divine and he is the power or the word through which God created everything is just taken from Philo, a helenized jew that was living at the same time when Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC - 50 AD) ?
      Philo said that God created everything by the Logos, the author of the fourth Gospel just plagarized the concept of the Logos from Philo and just added that the Christ is the Logos?
      Read this
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Philo_of_Alexandria

      Logos in Hellenistic Judaism[edit]

      In the Septuagint the term logos is used for the word of God in the creation of heaven in Psalm 33:6, and in some related contexts.
      Philo of Alexandria[edit]

      Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[6] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matterand perfect Form, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[28] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo "the first-born of God."[28] Philo also wrote that "the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated."[29]
      Plato's Theory of Forms was located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[28] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible(Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.[28]
      Christianity[edit]

      Christ the Logos[edit]

      Main article: Logos (Christianity)

      In principio erat verbum, Latin for In the beginning was the Word, from theClementine Vulgate, Gospel of John, 1:1–18.

      The Christian concept of the Logos is derived from the first chapter of the Gospel of John, where the Logos (often translated as “Word”) is described in terms that resemble, but likely surpass, the ideas of Philo:[30]
      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.[31]
      John also explicitly identifies the Logos with Jesus:
      The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"[32]
      As theologian Frank Stagg writes: As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God,[Jn 1:1] ... Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God".[Jn 1:1] God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. ... The Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption.[33]
      .......................................
      Early Christian writers[edit]

      Following John 1, the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr (c 150) identified Jesus as the Logos.[49][50] Like Philo, Justin also identified the Logos with the Angel of the Lord, and used this as a way of arguing for Christianity to Jews:
      I shall give you another testimony, my friends, from the Scriptures, that God begot before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos[51]
      In his First Apology, Justin used the Stoic concept of the Logos as a way of arguing for Christianity to non-Jews. Since a Greek audience would accept this concept, his argument could concentrate on identifying this Logos with Jesus.[49] However, Justin does not go so far as to articulate a fully consistent doctrine of the Logos.[49]
      Do you now believe that the concept of the Logos was just copied from Philo ?
      ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
      ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

      تعليق

      • #33
        So now, what you can't deny, is that Philo who lived while Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC-50 AD), is the one who developed the concept of the Logos or the word as a divine being and according to Philo the logos is the first born of God and through the Logos, God created the universe. Philo was a jew who didn't believe in Jesus Pbuh, he was just a heretic according to the Jews.
        The author of the fourth gospel, at the end of the first century, after the death of Philo by around 50 years, just plagarized what Philo said about the Logos or the word and just did one addition, he claimed that this Logos or Word is Jesus Pbuh.
        My point is that you can't read John 1 and tell me, it proves that Jesus is God. You can't tell me
        "All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" proves that Jesus is God. It just proves that the author of this gospel is copying from heretic jews and that your faith is just built upon this plagarism.
        ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
        ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

        تعليق

        • #34
          or that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
          Answer :

          1- Epistle to Hebrews has been disputed by some of the early christians as mentioned by Eusebius
          https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....viii.iii.html

          . Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine





          Chapter III.—The Epistles of the Apostles.




          5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is dis135
          puted595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place.596 In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul,597 I have not found them among the undisputed writings.598
          2- There is a great debate about the author of epistle to Hebrews

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...to_the_Hebrews

          Authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews

          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



          The King James Bible 1611 ed. ends the Epistle to the Hebrews with "Written to the Hebrewes, from Italy, by Timothie"

          The author of Hebrews, that is, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, is unknown. Although perhaps the most common theory through the ages has been that Paul the Apostle is the author,[1] most modern scholars generally agree that it was not written by him.[2] Since thethird century A.D. doubts have been raised about the identity of the true author. It is one of the Antilegomena—New Testament books whose canonicity was initially somewhat disputed.[3]
          Some scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[4]


          Though the writing style varies from Paul in a number of ways, no author is internally named in the letter, and the authorship has been debated since the earliest days of the Church, there still are some who regard the apostle Paul as the writer of Hebrews due to some similarities noted in phrasings, and the similar focus on Christ's superior plan of salvation.[5] Editions of the King James Version of the Bible usually place a heading over Hebrews with the words, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." However, that attribution was not part of the original document of Hebrews, but was added several hundred years later by scribes copying the book who believed Paul to be the author.[6]

          3- This sentence is just taken from Psalm 45
          The jews just translate it into ( Judge) instead of (God), which means that the phrase in Psalms 45 may not be referring to God at all, but the author translated it in this way to prove deity of christ
          See Rashi's commentary on the Tanach
          https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

          [TABLE="class: Co_TanachTable rashi_on, width: 100%"]

          [TD]Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.[/TD]
          4- Christian unitarians don't believe that Heb1 proves deity of Christ
          Please read this whole page, written by christians not jews or muslims :
          https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vid...-christ-as-god


          How about Psalm 45, another prophecy about the Messiah—this one about him riding forth victoriously to conquer and then rule the earth as God’s perfect representative. Verses 6 and 7 are quoted in Hebrews 1:8 and 9, which is where we will go next. Sad to say that in verse 6 the word “god” is once again mis-capitalized as “God.” No, like Psalm 82 and Isaiah 9:6, this psalm is also speaking of the Man among men, the one whom God would empower to restore His lost Paradise.OK, let’s look at Hebrews 1, and the context of the quote from Psalm 45. For the record, Hebrews 1 and 2 are a trenchant account of Jesus Christ’s journey from suffering to glory, emphasizing why he had to be a man (the Last Adam) in order to be the Redeemer of mankind. They are covered in detail in Chapters 2 and 3 of our One God & One Lordbook. Hebrews 1:1-3 shows how God did His best in Old Testament times to communicate to mankind via the spoken and written words of the prophets, but what He really had in mind was Jesus, His ultimate image. Verse 4 then begins a most significant analogy between Jesus and the angels that goes all the way through Chapter 2.
          Verses 5, 6, and 7, each quoting an Old Testament reference, are speaking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v. 5—it’s not about his birth—look at Ps. 2:7 & Acts 13:33) and his return to the earth to rule (v. 6). Verse 8 clarifies that Psalm 45:6 and 7 are a Messianic prophecy, but the translators once again mis-capitalize “god” as “God.” But look at verse 9! It says, “…therefore God, even your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Say, if one is God, how can anyone else be his “God”? That should be a more frequently asked question! In agreement with many other verses of Scripture, Hebrews 1:9 is clearly saying that because Jesus Christ suffered and died, God raised him from the dead and highly exalted (anointed) him as Lord.
          5- Let's read the whole verse from Psalms 45 or Heb 1

          “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
          the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
          9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
          therefore God, your God, has anointed you
          with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

          It is actually clear here that the speaker is addressing ( God) and then addressing someone else telling him (your God)
          Surely, God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (your God)
          Probably the one whom the speaker here addressed telling him (Your God) is king David or king Solomon and the christians will insist that the speaker is speaking to Jesus Pbuh
          Even if we want to say that the speaker is speaking to only one person, we will have to accept the translation of the jews (O judge) instead that of christians (O God) because simply God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (Your God)
          التعديل الأخير تم بواسطة 3abd Arahman; الساعة 08-06-2014, 01:54.
          ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
          ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

          تعليق

          • #35
            المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة
            You also didn't quote that God exalts His word above all His name which Muhammad didn't know or care to mention. I have a problem with a prophet who doesn't know the name of God.
            I don't know what exactly do you mean? and what is the source of this strange claim?
            You are claiming that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name
            Prove your claim!
            In Islam, God has many names, which are called الأسماء الحسنى ( Alasma Alhusna, which means the best names)
            Many of them are mentioned in the holy Quran, and they are known by all muslims not just Prophet Muhammad Pbuh
            Just prove your claim !

            Allah is not God's name. So what god is being referred to in Islam. Christians see it as a different god and Jesus than the ones in Christianity.
            Surely, Allah is God's name.
            Probably you are saying this stupid claim, which many of the christians who don't know arabic keep repeating. On the other hand, you will never find an arab christian saying this claim You know why?
            Because Allah الله is the word used by both muslims and arab christians to refer to God.
            If you read the Bible in arabic, everytime you read the word ( God), the arabic Bible will use the word ( Allah).
            Even Jesus Pbuh used the word Allah. He used to speak in aramaic. Check this link to know the aramaic word for ( God)
            https://www.peshitta.org/cgi-bin/lexicon.cgi

            You have to write the english word ( God) in the required space, to see the aramaic word, and then tap (searh)
            You will find that this is the pronounciation of the aramaic word is :


            [TR]
            [TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5, align: right"]Pronunciation:[/TD]
            [TD="bgcolor: #F5F5F5"](Eastern) AaLaH
            (Western) AaLoH            [/TD]
            [/TR]
            Sure. this word is very close to the arabic word Allah.
            ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
            ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

            تعليق

            • #36
              المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة
              As for the trinity, I have a problem with a god who doesn't understand what Christians believed and still believe about God's tri unity; for instance, Allah implies that the trinity consisted of the son, mother and father with him being the third of three by the way he questions Jesus; "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count the three that Allah alludes to as the three we Christians should desist to say. Allah confirms a misconception when he says: they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" Forgive me if I am not quoting exactly but you get the idea. What Christians called or call God the father the third of three and who called Mary God? Not even the Catholics who worship Mary considered her god or part of the trinity.
              First of all, God didn't say in the Quran that Christians consider virgin Mary to be a part of the trinity
              I challenge you to find any verse in the holy Quran saying that the trinity is composed of the father, mother and son
              You will never be able to find such a thing
              However, God said that he will ask Jesus Pbuh on Judgement day whether he told the people to take him and his mother as gods.
              This is the quranic verse :


              وإذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم أأنت قلت للناس اتخذوني وأمي إلهين من دون الله قال سبحانك ما يكون لي أن أقول ما ليس لي بحقّ إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما في نفسي ولا أعلم ما في نفسك إنك أنت علام الغيوب



              Yusuf Ali
              And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5: 116)

              In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
              So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
              However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
              Read this :
              https://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

              Here are some quotes from this link


              [pg. 416]
              Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency. Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..


              [pg. 419]
              Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
              [pg. 421]
              Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...


              [pg. 16]
              27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her.               Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.

              28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that               Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.


              Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :



              I don't understand what are you arguing about when you ask who said that God , the father, is the third of three?

              Surely, it is you.
              You believe that there are 3 persons in the Godhead. According to what you believe, God, the father, is a person, Jesus is a person, the Holy spirit is a person, yet they are all ONE GOD. So according to your faith, God, whom you call the Father, is one of three persons in the Godhead or, literally, third of three.
              ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
              ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

              تعليق

              • #37
                المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة

                As for David, since Jesus comes from His direct line, the word is referring to Jesus.
                NO, surely this word is referring to David not Jesus Pbuh.
                Let's read Psalms 2 again :

                7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


                The speaker here is saying ( The Lord said to me), so it is clear that he is speaking about himself, not about one of his descendants

                Who is the speaker here?
                It's surely David Pbuh before Jesus was born by hundreds of years.

                The jews understood that the begotten son of God here is king David and they understood from this title that God loves king David, not that king David is divine and that they should worship him.

                Read Rashi's commentary on the Tanach :
                https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



                [TR="class: Co_Rashi"]
                [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]I will tell of the decree: Said David, “This is an established decree, and [one] that I have received to tell this and to make known.”[/TD]
                [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
                [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
                [/TR]
                [TR="class: Co_Rashi"]
                [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]The Lord said to me: through Nathan, Gad, and Samuel.[/TD]
                [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
                [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
                [/TR]
                [TR="class: Co_Rashi"]
                [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]You are My son: The head over Israel, who are called “My firstborn son.” And they will endure through you, as is stated concerning Abner (II Sam. 3:18): “for God said, etc., ‘By the hand of My bondsman David shall I deliver… Israel.’” And for their sake, you are before Me as a son because they are all dependent upon you.[/TD]
                [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
                [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
                [/TR]
                [TR="class: Co_Rashi"]
                [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]this day have I: for I have enthroned you over them.[/TD]
                [TD="class: Co_Spacer, bgcolor: #ECE9D8"][/TD]
                [TD="class: hebrew, bgcolor: #ECE9D8, align: right"][/TD]
                [/TR]
                [TR="class: Co_Rashi"]
                [TD="bgcolor: #ECE9D8"]begotten you: to be called My son and to be beloved to Me as a son for their sake, as it is stated (II Sam. 7:14) concerning Solomon: “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son.” We find further concerning David (Ps. 89:27) “He shall call Me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’”[/TD]
                [/TR]
                But the author of the epistle to Hebrews, just wanted to prove that Jesus is the son of God from the OT, so he claimed that Psalms 2 and 2 sam. 7 are both about Jesus, although the former is about king David and the latter is about king Solomon.

                David means beloved of God and God said of Jesus "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased..."
                Let's suppose that God really said that Jesus is his beloved son
                According to the Bible, God also said that David is his begotten son and that Solomon is his son
                So what's the difference?
                The jews understand David being the begotten son of God as an expression meaning that God loves him, and the same applies for king Solomon Pbuh
                But according to your understanding, you insist that Jesus being the beloved son of God means that he is God himself !!!!!!

                Also you are ignoring that according to your Bible, God described Jesus as he's servant as in Matthew 12

                17This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 18"BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.…

                So Jesus Pbuh is the servant of God, how on earth could he be the servant of God and God himself?

                Moreover, if the Bible contains spurious parts and errors and contradictions as you yourself admit, how do you know that everything mentioned in it is true? how do you know that at the baptism of Jesus Pbuh, a voice was heard from heaven saying ( this is my beloved son) ? How do you know that this is not a fake story?
                If you say to anyone that the story of the voice saying (this is my beloved son) comes from a book containing errors, contradictions and spurious parts, no one will believe the story and they will tell you it's probably one of the errors in this book.

                There are different versions of the Bible is true but none of them clash with the central gospel message. Jesus is the Word of God. In the beginning that means the beginning as far back as men is capable of imagining was the word, The word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. Jesus is that word.
                I told you before that the concept of the word or logos being divine and being the first born of God and that everything was created through the Logos is just taken from Philo, who was the first to make up these concepts while Christ was alive
                The author of the fourth gospel just took what Philo said and added that Jesus Pbuh is the Logos
                If you think that this is the central gospel message, you are just proving that the central gospel message is plagarized from heretic jews
                ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

                تعليق

                • #38
                  That is why He could forgive sin;
                  Well, according to the Bible, the disciples have the authority to forgive sins too
                  John 20
                  21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.”22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.”

                  Are the disciples divine too?
                  If you say no, but they were given the authority to forgive the sins from God, I'll tell you ok, so why doesn't the same apply to Jesus? Why don't you say he was given the authority to forgive sins from God?

                  It is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am"
                  Let's suppose that Jesus Pbuh really said : ( Before Abraham I am )
                  Does this really prove that he is God?

                  See, compare this to the hadith of prophet Muhammad Pbuh : ""I was a Prophet when Adam was between bodyand soul"

                  Prophet Muhammad Pbuh doesn't want to say that he was physically present before Adam was created, he just wants to say that his prophethood was determined by God and was known to God before Adam's creation

                  The same applies to ( Before Abraham, I am), it doesn't mean that Jesus Pbuh was physically present before Abraham, it means that his prophethood was determined by God and known to God since earlier stages.

                  Read Jeremiah 1 also :

                  4 The Lord’s word came to me:
                  5 “Before I created you in the womb I knew you;
                  before you were born I set you apart;


                  I made you a prophet to the nations.”

                  Do you think that this means that Jeremiah was physically present as a prophet before he was born ?

                  that is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way.
                  Well surely, ( I am the way) doesn't mean ( I am God), it just means ( I, as a messenger from God, show you the way to God)

                  Do you want me to ignore that Jesus said that the father is his God, and believe that Jesus himself is God because he said I am the way?


                  Even Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am"
                  I explained to you what Jesus Pbuh meant by ( Before Abraham I am), if he really said it

                  We must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"

                  Peace be unto you friend
                  We found that according to the Bible, the Father was Jesus's God, and that Jesus used to pray to God, and that Jesus didn't know when the hour is?
                  So we understood that he is the servant of God
                  ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                  ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

                  تعليق

                  • #39
                    المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة Burninglight مشاهدة المشاركة
                    Like you said the term trinity is not in the Bible and 1Jn 5:7 is spurious; moreover, I never said the Bible was the word of God; I said Jesus is the word of God. The Bible is a history book that reports the failures of man and God's intervention with men. Some the Bible is God's direct word to people through prophets, but not all of the Bible is. As I mentioned, it is not like the Quran to where very word in it is verbatim words out of God's mouth. If you find one discrepancy the whole of the Quran fails. It is not that way with the Bible. The Bible is just a book it is dead with out the Spirit of God who quickens the word to us, and that is when it becomes the word of God to us; otherwise, it is just a story that shows the faithfulness of God and the judgment of God and His mercy and love.
                    If you believe that the Bible is just a story that contains spurious parts
                    How do you know that anything that you read in it is true?

                    If I don't share what God is saying right now to you, I am not preaching Christ. Jesus is the only word of God, and we experience Him through the Holy Spirit. So we know from Scripture that God is one and Jesus is His word and we know God's spirit convicts us of error and sin. It is not important to me that someone coined the term trinity because I understand the concept and I understand it is not my job to preach of teach it. The biggest thing about true Biblical Christianity which Muhammad and Allah didn't seem to understand is that it is not a religion as much as it is a relationship with God. It is religion that nailed Jesus to the cross. We true Christians that have a relationship with Jesus know God and we can be filled with His Spirit. Our faith is the substance or what we hope for and the proof or evidence of what we don't see. Without faith it is not possible to please our God. Those that come to him must believe that He is and, He rewards those who seek Him diligently. It relationship not religion. It is God by His spirit who puts in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It is not by our works that we can please God; it is by our faith that works by love. When we have this kind of faith, good deeds will be visible. If they are not visible, there is no faith. People can do good deeds and not have faith; that means nothing to God, but it is not possible to have faith without good works just as you cannot have smoke without fire. Nothing anyone can say against the Bible can tear a Christian of His faith once He has truly experience Christ to where God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that God is conforming us to the image of Christ. The path of the just is as a shinning light of day it shines more and more until the perfect day like the noon day sun. No one can come to Christ unless God draws him. There are many nominal Christians that convert to Islam who know about Christianity and Jesus, but they don't know Christ personally in relationship. Those the Christians you get that call themselves reverts. They never knew Jesus; they only knew about Him. I know Jesus friend and want to make Him known, but the Jesus I know is not the same Jesus of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons or the Muslims. What we do with this message I shared determines our eternal destiny so help me God.
                    Just emotions ......
                    ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                    ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

                    تعليق

                    • #40
                      The thread is open again. Sorry for closing it all this time. Kindly answer all my points.
                      ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                      ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

                      تعليق

                      • #41
                        Friend,

                        As I mentioned, when a person has emotions that doesn't mean he is not using his or her brain or heart. Like I said emotion is God given, and not necessarily a bad thing. I think you are confusing being emotional about something which is another way of saying reacting to something with knee jerk responses. That is not what I am doing. I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.
                        Look at how many responses I have given on the different threads, and no one appears to have a good comeback. I understand why, but do you? Maybe that is because they only speak and write Arabic. My responses are thought out carefully. I write only after careful deliberation. I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion. Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times. So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?

                        May God bring blessing and peace to you in Jesus name.

                        تعليق

                        • #42
                          Burninglight, are you kidding? Is this your answer to all my previous posts?
                          Even your claims in your last post have been answered by me before in another thread, but you're just repeating the same claims and not even bothering to read what we write or answer it !!!!!
                          ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                          ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

                          تعليق

                          • #43
                            المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة 3abd Arahman مشاهدة المشاركة
                            Burninglight, are you kidding? Is this your answer to all my previous posts?
                            Even your claims in your last post have been answered by me before in another thread, but you're just repeating the same claims and not even bothering to read what we write or answer it !!!!!
                            You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive. Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts. Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary. In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend. Muslims repeat themselves many times as well saying the same things; so, address the issues again soak it bro like me maybe something will penetrate.

                            Peace

                            تعليق

                            • #44
                              You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive.
                              Actually, I am not trying to be evasive, but I have answered in details all the points you were talking about, and this took me more than a week, and you didn't bother to discuss anything of what I wrote, and you just repeated some points that I have answered somewhere else !!!
                              Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts.
                              Ok, no problem. I will address again the issues in your last posts although I have addressed them before. But could you also address the issues in my posts that I wrote in more than 1 week when this thread was closed ?
                              Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary.
                              Ok, I will.
                              In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend.
                              Never mind about my tactics. Kindly read my posts and address the issues in them.
                              I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion.
                              I will just quote my previous answer to this point at this link https://splashurl.com/meqqdgt
                              In Islam, you are 100 % safe as long as you believe in God, all of his messengers, all of his books and in judgement day and you do good deeds. This is the guarantee that the holy Quran gives to all people : (من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97 ( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97 So your security in Islam, depends on believing in the religion of God and doing rightousness However, we don't think that we are sure that we are 100% safe in judgement day, because we don't know how our deeds will be at our death ? At our death, will we be believers doing good deeds ? If so, we are safe but we don't know how will we be at our death. What about christianity? You think that you are safe because God made the Jews and Romans kill his son or himself on the cross !!! Surely, this is a very strange concept However, let me ask you a question Do you think that you are secure even if you kill other people or rob them or do very bad deeds just because you believe that God has sacrificed his son ? If so, then surely christianity is not the true religion because it encourages people to do bad deeds just because they believe that they are secure whatever their deeds are, as long as they believe that Jesus Pbuh was crucified If you think that to be secure, you must do good deeds, then this is the same as Islam, so there is no point at all in your objection In Islam we have hope in God and in the same time we fear him We hope that he will forgive us and have mercy on us and in the same time we fear his punishment Our fear from god prevents us from doing bad deeds Abu Bakr did not say that he does not trust God of course, but what he said means that he will fear God even if one of his legs was in paradise and the other is still outside it
                              Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times.
                              Again I answered this at the same link :
                              Well, this is just what you want to think I told you, we do this with all members whether muslims or christians We do this with christians, because some of them speak about Islam and Prophet Muhammad Pbuh in a very rude offending way
                              However, you now have a lot of posts really and it seems logic that your posts don't have to be screened first anymore, but of course I don't have the authority to decide this, I will contact the admins regarding this issue.
                              So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?
                              Again, I will just quote my answer which you can find at the same link
                              Actually, according to your Bible, Jesus Pbuh himself is a servant of God Matthew 12 15 Jesus knew what the Pharisees were planning. So he left that place, and many people followed him. He healed all who were sick, 16 but he warned them not to tell others who he was. 17 This was to give full meaning to what Isaiah the prophet said when he spoke for God: 18 “Here is my servant, the one I have chosen. He is the one I love, and I am very pleased with him. So do you think that Jesus Pbuh is a servant or a slave of God and you are not ? It is wirth to mention that the word in the arabic translations of the Bible that is used instead of Servant in Matthew 12 is not خادم ( Khadem) which means servant but is Abd ( عبد) which means slave Actually according to the Bible you are surely a servant of God Let's read from Revelation 22 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown them to me.9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I’m a servant just like you and your brothers and sisters, the prophets, and those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” So the angel, John, the prophets and those who keep the words of the scroll - according to the Bible - are all servants of God Again the arabic word is Abd which means slave Surely being a slave or a servant of God is not something bad, it means that God owns you in a way that can be compared to a master owning his slave And this is surely true, God owns us and he has power and control over every single thing in our lives, we can't take a single breath unless he wills, everything that we have, God gave it to us : life, food , drink, health , money .... etc In this way we are servants and slaves of God In Christianity, God is described as a Father to show his love and mercy and men are described as his sons In islam, we don't describe God as a father and we don't describe ourselves as sons of God, because describing our relation to God in this way has been misused by christians. Some of the early christians used to describe Jesus Pbuh as son of God, to show that God loves him, exactly as David and Solomon has been described as sons of God in the OT. However, after describing Jesus as son of God to show that God loves him, people began to believe that this means that he is God. This is why we don't describe God as a father in Islam or say that we are the sons of God. However, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh taught us that God is not just as loving and merciful as a father, but that God is more loving and merciful than a mother. There’s a Hadith where a mother had lost her child during a battle, and she was looking for him fearing the worst. When she found him, she held him close and it was one of the most powerful scenes of love and mercy the companions have seen that they started to weep. Our Beloved peace be upon him said, “do you wonder at the mercy this mother had for her child? God is far more merciful to His servants than this mother is to her child!”
                              I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.
                              Could you tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay? Which points exactly have I not been able to answer properly? I think I have been able to gainsay all your posts. You claimed that Jesus Pbuh is divine because he was born from a virgin, and I told you that this is a ridiculous argument because his birth from a virgin is a miracle to show the power of God and that he can create people in a way that is not subject to physical and biological laws. You claimed that Jesus is divine because he is the word of God and everything has been created through him according to the fourth gospel, and I have been able to prove to you that the concept of the Logos or the word of God through which everything has been created has just been plagarized by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo. You claimed that Jesus is addressed as God in the epistle to Hebrews, and I proved to you that the author of this epistle is unknown and some early christians considered this epistle spurious, moreover the phrase is taken from the OT and the jews translate it to OJudge instead of OGod, and I showed you that even unitarian christians do not consider this as an evidence of divinity of Jesus Pbuh, and moreover the speaker addresses the person to whom he is speaking telling him (your God) so he is surely not speaking to God. You claimed that Uthman ibn Affan - may God be pleased with him - did some alterations to the text of the holy Quran when he burnt some Quranic texts that were present at his time, and I told you that he just wrote again the text that was collected by Abu Bakr, and the text that was collected by Abu Bakr was taken from the quranic text that was written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh used to read it, so no alterations were done. You claimed that there is an error in the holy Quran because it states that some people consider virgin Mary God, and I explained to you that according to thhe arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if the catholics worship virgin Mary - even if they don't say she is God - this means that they took her as a god according to the arabic language. Moreover, I've been able to show you some quotations from the Catholics which shows that some of them consider virgin Mary to be equal to God. So Could you please, tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay ? Could you also answer my posts ? You didn't answer me ..... How could Jesus Pbuh be God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God? How could Jesus be God while he himself said that the Father is the only God? How could he be God if he used to pray to God? How could he be God if he didn't know when Judgement day is? If you agree that the Bible is a man-made book that contains errors and spurious parts .... How do you trust it to take your faith from it? For example, how do you know that Jesus's resurrection story is not just a fake? Maybe he was not crucified and someone else was crucified as we muslims believe and as stated by some of the gnostic gospels, maybe he just died on the cross and the whole resurrection story is just a fake. How do you trust a book containing errors and spurious parts to be the source of your faith? What about the false prophecies in the Bible and the true prophecies in the Quran and Hadiths? I gave you examples for such prophecies.
                              ( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
                              ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)

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                              • #45
                                المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة 3abd Arahman مشاهدة المشاركة
                                Actually, I am not trying to be evasive, but I have answered in details all the points you were talking about, and this took me more than a week, and you didn't bother to discuss anything of what I wrote, and you just repeated some points that I have answered somewhere else !!! Ok, no problem. I will address again the issues in your last posts although I have addressed them before. But could you also address the issues in my posts that I wrote in more than 1 week when this thread was closed ? Ok, I will. Never mind about my tactics. Kindly read my posts and address the issues in them. I will just quote my previous answer to this point at this link https://splashurl.com/meqqdgt Again I answered this at the same link : However, you now have a lot of posts really and it seems logic that your posts don't have to be screened first anymore, but of course I don't have the authority to decide this, I will contact the admins regarding this issue. Again, I will just quote my answer which you can find at the same link Could you tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay? Which points exactly have I not been able to answer properly? I think I have been able to gainsay all your posts. You claimed that Jesus Pbuh is divine because he was born from a virgin, and I told you that this is a ridiculous argument because his birth from a virgin is a miracle to show the power of God and that he can create people in a way that is not subject to physical and biological laws. You claimed that Jesus is divine because he is the word of God and everything has been created through him according to the fourth gospel, and I have been able to prove to you that the concept of the Logos or the word of God through which everything has been created has just been plagarized by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo. You claimed that Jesus is addressed as God in the epistle to Hebrews, and I proved to you that the author of this epistle is unknown and some early christians considered this epistle spurious, moreover the phrase is taken from the OT and the jews translate it to OJudge instead of OGod, and I showed you that even unitarian christians do not consider this as an evidence of divinity of Jesus Pbuh, and moreover the speaker addresses the person to whom he is speaking telling him (your God) so he is surely not speaking to God. You claimed that Uthman ibn Affan - may God be pleased with him - did some alterations to the text of the holy Quran when he burnt some Quranic texts that were present at his time, and I told you that he just wrote again the text that was collected by Abu Bakr, and the text that was collected by Abu Bakr was taken from the quranic text that was written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh used to read it, so no alterations were done. You claimed that there is an error in the holy Quran because it states that some people consider virgin Mary God, and I explained to you that according to thhe arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if the catholics worship virgin Mary - even if they don't say she is God - this means that they took her as a god according to the arabic language. Moreover, I've been able to show you some quotations from the Catholics which shows that some of them consider virgin Mary to be equal to God. So Could you please, tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay ? Could you also answer my posts ? You didn't answer me ..... How could Jesus Pbuh be God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God? How could Jesus be God while he himself said that the Father is the only God? How could he be God if he used to pray to God? How could he be God if he didn't know when Judgement day is? If you agree that the Bible is a man-made book that contains errors and spurious parts .... How do you trust it to take your faith from it? For example, how do you know that Jesus's resurrection story is not just a fake? Maybe he was not crucified and someone else was crucified as we muslims believe and as stated by some of the gnostic gospels, maybe he just died on the cross and the whole resurrection story is just a fake. How do you trust a book containing errors and spurious parts to be the source of your faith? What about the false prophecies in the Bible and the true prophecies in the Quran and Hadiths? I gave you examples for such prophecies.
                                Okay, please do speak to the moderators about us Christians being able to post directly. There is another Christian on the forum who has posted over 500 posts and she cannot post directly either. Is that fair? This tells me something about the fruit of Islam and how things would be under Sharia. Well, enough of that I started a thread on it; so, let me address your points. I am like you in the sense I am not trying to be evasive either.

                                You asked some questions that I will attempt to answer. The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign not to show the power of God, because every birth shows the power of God's creation; so, your response is lame. I didn't say the virgin birth proved Jesus divinity; I said it proves He was born without sin and remained so. I told you that Islam borrowed the virgin birth story from the NT Bible, but rejects the reason the NT Bible gives for His virgin birth.

                                The virgin birth was putting flesh and blood on God's word and in that sense God is with us (Jn. 1). God showed us that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory, because of God's perfect justice, we must die, but because of God's goodness, love and mercy, He provided a way for us to escape the judgment of God by accepting the work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus satisfied the penalty for our sin and justice was served.

                                That doesn't mean that we can kill and do evil works; it means Jesus is in us and God creates in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It means we are saved from past, present and further sin and we know that we'll be with God. We are free to choose but not free from the consequences of our choices. It means we have to meet God on His terms to be saved. If we are truly born again in Christ, we have been saved by God's grace through faith, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer for wrong doing. It is not by works we are saved, otherwise, man gets the credit and not God. God is not mocked a man will received according to his works. We reap what we sow, but when we have faith operational in our lives, God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that is why we know our eternal destiny. We might still sin but it has been paid for; now, we just have to deal with the consequences of our poor choices here and now.

                                Muslims don't know their eternal destiny for a reason. That fact alone guarantees you don't have salvation now. You must meet God on His terms to get this gift of God. Muslims don't have the security we Christians have, You will never know if you have done enough good deeds or prayed enough or followed Islam close enough for salvation. The truth is that no matter how close you try to follow Allah's and Muhammad's laws and commands in Islam, you will be able to do enough to save yourself. Jesus said it; "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...No one comes to the father God except through me" You are saying that these are a corruptions of God's word is the corruption. Again, the real corruption is believing this is a corruption, because it damns the soul for eternity, and this makes God very sad. I feel this sadness, because I am His and I have been brought for a price. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ. It is a monstrous teaching to say Jesus didn't die for our sin, because it damns the soul. It is written "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God".

                                Now, I cannot claim Uthman made alteration to the Quran; I am just saying you cannot proved the Quran has been perfectly preserved. As for Allah's question to Jesus "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count three with Allah as the third and Allah said, "they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three." Who does that or who did that? Not even the Catholics do this.

                                I didn't ask you about those who worship Mary. No one consider her God not even Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, so I know exactly what I am talking about. I have heard Catholics say she is the mother of God, because Jesus is the divine son of God, but they don't believe she is God or the mother of God the father. This is both Allah's and Muhammad's misconception of Christianity, and this is what you cannot gainsay although you try.
                                I am, therefore, seeing Islam as a reaction to its misconceptions of Christianity, and it started with Allah and his slave messenger. So, I see the god of Islam and the Quran to not be the same God of the Bible and Jesus. Jesus is the only truth. Allah never mentioned the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity; therefore, this blaring discrepancy that you either cannot see or don't want to see, but I see it clear as crystal.

                                Peace be unto you thank you for your response. Let me know what else you would like for me to address.

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