Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

[محمد سني 1989]

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I never said gaining knowledge means being born again. It seems you make untrue statements about what I am saying to gain advantage, but it won't work you also made an untrue state about me in the previous post saying I know nothing about Christianity and I know nothing about Islam. This is easy to prove wrong; for instance, I know that in your religion you believe that the slave messenger of Allah is Muhammad whose name you must mention in the second part of the shahada to be a Muslim; I know that Islam falsely accuses Christianity of associating partners to God; I know that Islam accuses the Christians of having a corrupted Bible that the Jews changed, but they don't know who among the Jews did this or when and how much they corrupted, where or what they corrupted nor their motive or how they benefited from changing it.

I know that Christians see this as an attempt to promote the Quran. They see it as nonsense, because if Allah wouldn't or couldn't preserve the torah and gospel that came before logic and common sense tells us he wouldn't be able to do it after. Muslims are, therefore, expecting me to believe that man's power to corrupt was greater than Allah's power to preserve the Scripture that came before.
Muslims expect me to believe Allah couldn't come up with at least one uncorrupted torah and gospel among the nations to show his power to preserve all his words and not just the Quran which Uthman put to writing without a divine mandate to do so from Allah.

Why didn't Allah see the corruption coming to the torah and gospel and be its guardian at the time his word needed protection from the Jews??? This is tooooooo far fetch, and for this reason Christianity makes more sense than a religion that has to cut down Jews and Christians and even the torah and gospel to promote Islam. Show me where the Quran says the gospel Allah sent down to his prophet for guidance and light is corrupted or missing! If you cannot, such a statement is contrived and should be ignored and will be.

Also when I post to you, your responses comes across as attacking, rude, belligerent and insecure. Why is that your reaction? You don't understand that variation's in the gospel are to be expected and do NOT effect the central gospel message. Moreover, I don't want you to see a sign of my knowledge. Knowledge is puffed up as the great apostle Paul would say. Love edifies and is not puffed up.
Christians will in the name of Jesus tear down every imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God with the sword of the spirit and of God's word. This is not a physical sword it is the word of God which is quick and powerful sharper than any two edged blade that pierces to the dividing of the soul and spirit the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
All the verses you quoted from the Quran are accusatory toward people of the Scripture. The Bible says Satan is the accuser of the saints. Anyone who has Jesus (Born again) is a saint. The Quran in some places tells us people of the Scripture we are noble, and we should stand on the Scripture that as been revealed to us, and then it tells us when we do it we confuse falsehood for truth. This is contradiction and confusion. The Bible tells us that Satan is not only the father of lies, he is the author of confusion. In light of this new evidence, I rule in favor of Christianity making more sense than Islam.

Peace

You said that born again does not mean more knowledge (although you did in a previous response and you know it) then what is it ??? before and after ???

As for who corrupted the bible , one example : Paul with the beliefs and representation of Jesus.
Another the writers of Mark , Matthew , luke and John over the years.

Corrupting the scripture is not proving that man's power is more than god especially that the line of prophets is still going on. This actually contradicts your earlier statement of addmitting the varriations exist but does not affect the central theme (although it does) !!!!
Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness. Man can never have the upper hand on God. The scriptures was given to the Jews as a commitment for them to keep it safe rather they fullsified it and preached other ideologies. One example is the number of books in the OT which Jews differed on like the samaritan OT which has much less books in it than the traditional jewish book. You cannot say that they are both right because they both have different scriptures and both accuse each other of corrupting the bible

AS for the writting of it and the original torah and gospel . There was during the time of Moses and Jesus the original Torah and original gospel respectively which muslims believe that is what the quran says . Uthman never wrote the quran , it was already compiled and written during the time of the prophet and Abu bakr as Ishowed you before (and you know it) , what Uthman did is that he took the quran which Zaid wrote during the time of abubakr and made many copies of it to distribute to all the islamic cities.

While the NT for example we do not know who the writers were??? We have four accounts of jesus ??? The earliest gospel (Mark) was written 40 AD
Christianity depends on the historical manuscript to prove the authenticity of these scriptures (not oral tradition) yet the oldest is a fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the first half of the second century!!!!!! The earlies manuscripts themselves also contain multiple variations!!!! by multiple biblical new testament scholars describe it as thousands!!!! Me myself when I first heard and saw this , I thought to myself christians are definetly going to deny this , however surprisingly they did not !!!! their excuse it does not affect the central message !!! and they still claim it is from god and the writers with their variations were inspired by God!!!!! This my friend shows that christianity makes no sense at all.

Knowledge is a way to know god more . You and Paul's negativity towards knowldge contributes the anti knowledge-science heritage that the church holds throughout its history. The message I see from your dialogue and from what you are saying is close your eyes and mind and just believe , whether it makes sense or not which is ironic since this topic is about which religion makes more sense. So when you say stuff like that you are not contributing positively to your argument rather you are contradicting your own conclusion!!!!

The Quran distingushes in the previous Israel prophetic times between the people of the scriptures who obeyed and those who disobeyed. There is a difference for example between Kaleb the follower of Moses and Aron peace be upon them and Korah or Karoon in Arabic. Kaleb is a believer and a divote servant of God while Korah is in hell. There is a difference between Judas and paul on one hand and Peter and John on the other hand.

However it is important to note that even though you talk too much about the Quran yet you still do not actually quote it which means that you do not actually read it rather hear what your pastors , priests , bishops say.

And more importantly I think you have avoided quoting the last response to avoid answering passages like this :




If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14: 26



and this :

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Jesus could not have said both because they are both speaking of his last words :

46

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Luke 23: 46

And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mark 15: 37

This was his last moment , a loud cry so according to Mark his last words was god why have you forsaken me

I know what you will say , you will say the loud cry is what jesus said in Luke , that is wrong in two ways :

1. Mark and Matthew are both older than Luke , Mark 40 AD Matthew 70-100 AD . As for Luke it was written 80- 90 AD

2. biblical commentary describe the loud cry in Mark as something different:

Verse 37.

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And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost

. The three synoptists all mention this cry,

which appears to have been something different from the words

which he uttered at or about the time of his death.

It was evidently something supernatural

, and was so regarded by the centurion who stood by; and who had no doubt been accustomed to scenes like these.

Source :

Pulpit Commentary

peace

[Burninglight]

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You said that born again does not mean more knowledge (although you did in a previous response and you know it) then what is it ??? before and after ???

Please give the quote and prove it. Just saying in a previous response, I said this and you said that doesn't cut it friend; you do that a lot even in most of your arguments on Scriptures - see the quote below as my point.

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As for who corrupted the bible , one example : Paul with the beliefs and representation of Jesus.
Another the writers of Mark , Matthew , luke and John over the years.

Here is an example of you saying the Bible is corrupted over the years without proof or an example. You just go by what your leaders tell you or what you read on the internet.

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Corrupting the scripture is not proving that man's power is more than god especially that the line of prophets is still going on. This actually contradicts your earlier statement of addmitting the varriations exist but does not affect the central theme (although it does) !!!!

Yes it is. Did Allah send down the torah and gospel for guidance and light to Islam's messenger? If you answer yes, I rest my case. Why would Allah guard his later word and not his earlier word? Where is the logic and reason behind it? God gave us intelligence man. So I am using it, and concluded that your position makes NO SENSE man! Please answer these questions and stop avoiding them.

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Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness. Man can never have the upper hand on God. The scriptures was given to the Jews as a commitment for them to keep it safe rather they fullsified it and preached other ideologies. One example is the number of books in the OT which Jews differed on like the samaritan OT which has much less books in it than the traditional jewish book. You cannot say that they are both right because they both have different scriptures and both accuse each other of corrupting the bible

Well, according to you, man did get the upper hand by changing Allah's word and making it corrupted which was not Allah's will; so, he had to send his word again and guard what he wouldn't or couldn't do the first time. This logic is insane man, and only you are willing to believe it. Besides, written Scripture corruption is not the reason God kept sending prophets. It is because they disobeyed the torah in their written interpretation and in their actions which were recorded as God inspired the prophets to do. That, FYI, is not Biblical corruption! What attempts to corrupt the Scriptures that came before is the Quran especially after Uthman recompiled it and destroyed the evidence (Original Qurans).

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AS for the writting of it and the original torah and gospel . There was during the time of Moses and Jesus the original Torah and original gospel respectively which muslims believe that is what the quran says . Uthman never wrote the quran , it was already compiled and written during the time of the prophet and Abu bakr as Ishowed you before (and you know it) , what Uthman did is that he took the quran which Zaid wrote during the time of abubakr and made many copies of it to distribute to all the islamic cities. While the NT for example we do not know who the writers were??? We have four accounts of jesus ??? The earliest gospel (Mark) was written 40 AD
Christianity depends on the historical manuscript to prove the authenticity of these scriptures (not oral tradition) yet the oldest is a fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the first half of the second century!!!!!! The earlies manuscripts themselves also contain multiple variations!!!! by multiple biblical new testament scholars describe it as thousands!!!! Me myself when I first heard and saw this , I thought to myself christians are definetly going to deny this , however surprisingly they did not !!!! their excuse it does not affect the central message !!! and they still claim it is from god and the writers with their variations were inspired by God!!!!! This my friend shows that christianity makes no sense at all.

Allah told Muhammad as recorded in the Quran that he sent down the torah and gospel to him for guidance and light. If the Bible is corrupted it had to have happened some time after your prophet was born or after his death. Variations in the different manuscripts are not corruptions. Moreover, inspired by God doesn't mean that God wrote it the way the Quran was supposedly written or the way the ten commandments were actually written by the finger of God. You are not making sense. I told you that men inspired by God means they wrote the way they understood and saw things from God. There is bound to be some variation that doesn't effect the central gospel message. You say it does, but you, as always, give NO Proof. You are all talk man, and you know not what manner of spirit you have.

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Knowledge is a way to know god more . You and Paul's negativity towards knowldge contributes the anti knowledge-science heritage that the church holds throughout its history. The message I see from your dialogue and from what you are saying is close your eyes and mind and just believe , whether it makes sense or not which is ironic since this topic is about which religion makes more sense. So when you say stuff like that you are not contributing positively to your argument rather you are contradicting your own conclusion!!!!

You are deceiving yourself here. Sorry to have to say this but, it appears to me that knowledge and truth are who you have made your enemies and ignorance and deception are who you prefer for friends.

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The Quran distingushes in the previous Israel prophetic times between the people of the scriptures who obeyed and those who disobeyed. There is a difference for example between Kaleb the follower of Moses and Aron peace be upon them and Korah or Karoon in Arabic. Kaleb is a believer and a divote servant of God while Korah is in hell. There is a difference between Judas and paul on one hand and Peter and John on the other hand.

And what is the point you're trying to make here?

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However it is important to note that even though you talk too much about the Quran yet you still do not actually quote it which means that you do not actually read it rather hear what your pastors , priests , bishops say.

You are the one that is doing too much talking and saying nothing; why do I have to quote the verse when you know the verses I am referring to from the Quran? Why don't you give the quote I am saying if you know your Quran? Proof I am quoting what it means incorrectly? If what I say about the Quran is true, why do you need the quotation from me? Don't you know it? When you quote the Bible, I don't need the reference unless I challenge you on it. I know what the Bible says. It seems you need the reference for the Quran for some reason, uhm, why to prove to you I read it???

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And more importantly I think you have avoided quoting the last response to avoid answering passages like this :
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14: 26

and this :




peace

I am not avoiding it, I haven't gotten to it yet. Jesus is not saying dishonor your parents; He is saying that you should put Him and love Him above your parents and your life. How could you even think that Jesus would want someone to actually hate their parents, their brothers, and sisters which is an act of murder? Jesus tells us love even our enemies so how can you come to such an ignorant conclusion?
Jesus is saying we are not honoring Him unless we honor Him above our parents, family, friends, life, and above all. You quote this verse out of ignorance to its meaning, context and connotation which makes my case about you true.

Peace,,, and I pray you come to the knowledge of truth and not dig in your heels over this post!

[محمد سني 1989]

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Please give the quote and prove it. Just saying in a previous response, I said this and you said that doesn't cut it friend; you do that a lot even in most of your arguments on Scriptures - see the quote below as my point.



Here is an example of you saying the Bible is corrupted over the years without proof or an example. You just go by what your leaders tell you or what you read on the internet.

You asked for a name not a proof , focus and becareful. I also stated the unknown editors of Mark , Matthew , Luke and John were also involved . The ending of Mark did not exist and was added to the gospel of Mark in the late 5th century as an example.

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Yes it is. Did Allah send down the torah and gospel for guidance and light to Islam's messenger? If you answer yes, I rest my case. Why would Allah guard his later word and not his earlier word? Where is the logic and reason behind it? God gave us intelligence man. So I am using it, and concluded that your position makes NO SENSE man! Please answer these questions and stop avoiding them.

No , God did not sent down the ORIGINAL torah and gospel as a guidance and light to the prophet rather as a guidance and light to the followers of Moses and Jesus. God would guard his later words because it is his last words sent down with the last messenger. However the previous scriptures were not his last and the prophets were not the last prophets. I already explained this in my last response. I NEVER avoided it , you just did not read it

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Well, according to you, man did get the upper hand by changing Allah's word and making it corrupted which was not Allah's will; so, he had to send his word again and guard what he wouldn't or couldn't do the first time. This logic is insane man, and only you are willing to believe it. Besides, written Scripture corruption is not the reason God kept sending prophets.

I said one of the reasons and I emphasized it , the fact that you stated the contrary shows that you are skimming through my response:

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Meaning that one of the reasons god sent prophets to the israelites was that they kept manipulating the OT , and by those prophets God has revealed his righteousness

plus you said this :

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It is because they disobeyed the torah in their written interpretation and in their actions which were recorded as God inspired the prophets to do. That, FYI, is not Biblical corruption!

Yet in other thread you admitted to errors in the torah but you called it typos!!!!

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What attempts to corrupt the Scriptures that came before is the Quran especially after Uthman recompiled it and destroyed the evidence (Original Qurans).

That is lie and you know it. I already proved you false in this matter but you keep bringing it up :

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Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. ........So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman........They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4987,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 510

The orginal Quran was returned to Hafsa during Uthman's time , can't be more clear than that.

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Allah told Muhammad as recorded in the Quran that he sent down the torah and gospel to him for guidance and light.

That is a lie. look above

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. Variations in the different manuscripts are not corruptions. Moreover, inspired by God doesn't mean that God wrote it the way the Quran was supposedly written or the way the ten commandments were actually written by the finger of God. You are not making sense. I told you that men inspired by God means they wrote the way they understood and saw things from God. There is bound to be some variation that doesn't effect the central gospel message. You say it does, but you, as always, give NO Proof. You are all talk man, and you know not what manner of spirit you have.
You are deceiving yourself here. Sorry to have to say this but, it appears to me that knowledge and truth are who you have made your enemies and ignorance and deception are who you prefer for friends.

Not varriations between different manuscripts rather between different manuscripts and ALSO different from the ALL EARLIER manuscripts. Such variations can only mean that it was not inspired by God !!!!
No proof!!!!! Are you convincing me or your self

When Mark's original ending ends with :

”8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Then this means that the writer of the gospel of Mark never believed that Jesus appeared to the deciples after he died !!!!! Are you saying this does not hurt the central message !!!!

It seems to me that your closest friend is deception and your weapon is ignorance and avoidance , your enemies are truth and knowledge , and your driving skill is fear from truth. But unfortunatelly that does not surprise me , the history of the church is filled with this.


This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God???

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And what is the point you're trying to make here?

This is a response to your understanding about the Quran , the verses which are praising previous followers of prophets are to certain people while the ones cursing them are to another , thats why I put the examples above

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You are the one that is doing too much talking and saying nothing; why do I have to quote the verse when you know the verses I am referring to from the Quran?

LOL because you are talking about things that do not exist in the quran or verses that are actually talking about somethng different that what you are describing. So you are saying squat my friend nothing .

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Why don't you give the quote I am saying if you know your Quran? Proof I am quoting what it means incorrectly?

That is not my responsibility . It is a debator's reponsibility to quote right and be ready before a debate and not just say stuff out of his mind that is not how debates work my friend plus the verses you are talking about do not exist!!!!

Where in the Quran did God say that the torah and gospel as light and guidanceto the prophet !!!!!!!!

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If what I say about the Quran is true, why do you need the quotation from me?

LOL , because it is not . You are simply throwing accusations and creating things that do not exist in the Quran. As I said before ignorance is your weapon

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Don't you know it? When you quote the Bible, I don't need the reference unless I challenge you on it. I know what the Bible says. It seems you need the reference for the Quran for some reason, uhm, why to prove to you I read it???

ummmm , how about debate integrity , something which you obviously lack

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Jesus is saying we are not honoring Him unless we honor Him above our parents, family, friends, life, and above all. You quote this verse out of ignorance to its meaning, context and connotation which makes my case about you true.

Yes that is the mainstream interpritation of christianity , but still there is a big question mark on the word hate. plus it was a response to you
Why use hate , plus the context did no mention what you are saying!!!

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Peace,,, and I pray you come to the knowledge of truth and not dig in your heels over this post!

I will pray the same for you but remember I stated two questions for you above which I expect an answer in the next response of yours, lets see if you will answer or will you ignore it ??

[Burninglight]

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You asked for a name not a proof

No, I asked for proof, and I receive none!

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[/FONT][/RIGHT]
The orginal Quran was returned to Hafsa during Uthman's time , can't be more clear than that.
This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God???

Variations are not inspired, but the message we get out of the manuscripts after correcting nonsense errors are. Man makes mistakes in spite of that we can still see what God was doing and saying. It doesn't hurt the central gospel message. If you think it does, say how. Do you even know what the central gospel message is?

As for Hafsa's copy being returned, this is known, but you neglect to mention that it was also destroyed after her death. Why didn't Allah guard what Uthman used to recompile the Quran you now use? This does nothing to inspire trust or to prove you now have a Quran that was perfectly preserved much less proof that it is God's word.

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That is not my responsibility . It is a debator's reponsibility to quote right and be ready before a debate and not just say stuff out of his mind that is not how debates work my friend plus the verses you are talking about do not exist!!!!

fair enough

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ummmm , how about debate integrity , something which you obviously lack

You used the wrong word try debate etiquette instead of debate integrity, but fair enough.

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Yes that is the mainstream interpritation of christianity , but still there is a big question mark on the word hate. plus it was a response to you
Why use hate , plus the context did no mention what you are saying!!!

That was the word used, but I know how Jesus meant it in context even though that wasn't stated, and you don't want to learn.

I will pray the same for you but remember I stated two questions for you above which I expect an answer in the next response of yours, lets see if you will answer or will you ignore it ??[/QUOTE] Okay lets give you the quote integrity you want. The Quran states about the Injil:

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27 (By the way didn't Allah know that Maryam was NOT the name of Jesus' Mother? Is that an error?)

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry (BTW, there is nothing to back up that God sent Jesus a Book in the Scriptures that came before)

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan (This would have been a perfect place for Allah to state that the torah and injeel were missing or corrupted, but he didn't)

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah. What I tried to tell you that you said didn't exist is in Sura 19:30 and 3:3 confirms that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah with no mention of corruption or a missing injil. In fact, Allah tells Muhammad the Quran which means recitation was supposed to confirm the Scripture that came before, but it doesn't confirm it; instead it usurps it.

The Qur'an SAYS MORE regarding the Injil:

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. ... S. 5:47 Al-Hilali & Khan That is me, I am the person of the Book speaking to 1989!!!

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry
We do this. and we have received the torah and Injil from our Lord, but you would have us doubt AS ACCURATE what your book confirms we have received!!!

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [Injil] (which are) with them. S. 7:157 Pickthall

[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan This verse here proves to you that I didn't just make things up: The torah and gospel were sent to us and Allah tells (O Muhammad) this and he says nothing about it being corrupted. We still have the same torah and gospel Allah said he sent to us and your prophet was a witness to what you now say was corrupted.

To me this verses makes clear that the Injil is the book of the Christians (the people of the Book) (ME), the book that is with me and which we Christians believe in. The Qur'an even tells us Christians to fully obey the Torah and the Injil that they had at the time your prophet was living. Can you answer to that?

I see a discrepancy: When we look at the New Testament our Scriptures, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus". On the contrary, the New Testament consists of several books that were written by followers of Jesus (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) AFTER the ascension of Jesus.

Now please pay attention to this: the Injil can either be a book given to Jesus, or it can be the book that the Christians have as their Scriptures, but it cannot be both. Your prophet Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Qur'an, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, he was, IMHO, clearly ##### on the matter as you are. As I have mentioned many times to you, the essential nature of the Qur'an and the Bible are very different, but you insist on judging it the way you do the Quran.
IOW, a book "given to Jesus" in the same way as Muhammad claims to have received the Qur'an does not exist. I have never claimed that such a book existed at any time nor do my Christians brothers and sisters. This claim of S. 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of your prophet.

Had the author of the Qur'an made only statements like those found in S. 5:46 and 19:30, it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the NT clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Qur'an, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Qur'an does not endorse it, but instead the Quran imperfectly borrows the virgin birth story of Jesus from the Injil and denies the reason for his virgin birth instead of confirming it like Allah TOLD HIS MESSENGER IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO. You are stuck with a mess here.

The Qur'an identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians, right? Since the Injil is the book of the Christians, the Qur'an makes a blatantly wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil being a book given to Jesus. Moreover, we are told to stand on the gospel that was revealed to us and I believe we do and you can never pull us down. The Quran is confusing. When you really observe it carefully, the more confusing it gets, this is another reason Christianity makes more sense with all of its variants.

So tell me how could this misconception arise in the mind of your prophet? He may have heard statements like in the first verse of the Gospel according to Mark: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, ... I say he could have heard this because he was unread. Seems logical that could've have happened to him.

He could have mistakenly thought that this meant the same as "the Torah of Moses" i.e. a revelation given to a prophet in form of a book. However, reading the context shows that it means "this is the beginning of the Gospel ABOUT Jesus Christ"; the Gospel is the message telling us about the life and teaching of Jesus, written up by his followers, not a book given to Jesus himself.

Islam's prophet projected his own ideas of receiving revelation of a book (the Qur'an) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book of Jesus that was and is still held sacred by his followers and us on the forum here must also have been a book given to Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given to your messenger). However, he was wrong about this, and you follow this error. This mistake exposes the Qur'an you follow, and that is why Christianity makes more sense than Islam. IMHO, the Qur'an is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author. When you point your finger at the Bible you have four pointing back at you.

You keep screaming the Bible is corrupted. Many Muslim do this so don't feel singled out. When the Qur'an contradicts the Bible, Muslims shout, "but the Bible is corrupted", as if that is the answer and solution to every such problem. This is the way you deal in debate. The Bible is corrupted it has variants that change the central gospel message, but it doesn't and you have not been able to prove how it has. You have been pawned and can't admit it. Why? Is it pride?

Now let say why crying corruption won't work and kill this thing once and for all.

As I mentioned many times, the Qur'an never claims that the Injil is corrupted. That is an inference you make. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture. What the Qur'an says about the Bible, lets investigates this matter closely and it shows that the Qur'an does not support the Muslim claim of NT Bible corruption; in fact, the Quran borrowed from it as I mentioned above. Why would it borrow from a corrupted book. LOL.

Finally, even if there had been more variants then we know of (what you call corruption) of certain passages, these small changes and nonsense errors resulting in certain shifts of meaning don't effect the central gospel message, but you say it does, How? Can you possibly explain the above contradiction in the Qur'an. Here we have a fundamental difference in the nature of the Bible which cannot be accounted for either with gradual changes or with a sudden change. I haven't heard you tell me when it got corrupted, by who, where and how did they benefit from it. How did the injil get corrupted or how did it disappear?

The Qur'an was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad supposedly. It was (supposedly) not written by your prophet, but given to him by Allah through Gabriel. OTOH, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did. Some of these memories are rejected by Muslims but some don't such as the satanic verses and many other such things that help us see why Christianity makes more sense than Islam.

Would it be possible for anyone to change the Qur'an (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?

Without doubt, you will say "NO." But if it is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would you or any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Your thinking is not equal if you didn't think of this. Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it? Belief in this theory demands blind faith in the Qur'an. Common sense will have to conclude that this cannot possibly have happened, and this implies that the author of the Qur'an simply made an error regarding the nature of the Christian Scripture. I guess common sense is not so common, and for this reason Christianity makes more sense than Islam!

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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No, I asked for proof, and I receive none!

Yes you did in my last response example : ending of Mark. Your original question was the name and you know it

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Variations are not inspired, but the message we get out of the manuscripts after correcting nonsense errors are. Man makes mistakes in spite of that we can still see what God was doing and saying. It doesn't hurt the central gospel message. If you think it does, say how. Do you even know what the central gospel message is?

Smokescreen now you are trying to debate what the central message is??? Do you deny that the ressurection is part of the central theme??

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As for Hafsa's copy being returned, this is known, but you neglect to mention that it was also destroyed after her death. Why didn't Allah guard what Uthman used to recompile the Quran you now use? This does nothing to inspire trust or to prove you now have a Quran that was perfectly preserved much less proof that it is God's word.

LOL yet you forgot to mention that the burning occurred 20 years later after Uthman's death and after all islamic countries had copies of the Quran so thus burning does not matter and it does not occur during the time of Uthman. Waht is important is we have these narrations to indicate it

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That was the word used, but I know how Jesus meant it in context even though that wasn't stated, and you don't want to learn.

Here is a question : How do you know Jesus meant that

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I will pray the same for you but remember I stated two questions for you above which I expect an answer in the next response of yours, lets see if you will answer or will you ignore it ?? Okay lets give you the quote integrity you want. The Quran states about the Injil:

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27 (By the way didn't Allah know that Maryam was NOT the name of Jesus' Mother? Is that an error?)

Again you are ignoring my last response I already stated this was talking about the original Gospel not your Four corrupted read the verse :
and we gave him the injeel

also more importantly , Maryam , LOL you really do not know the difference in linguistic . Maryam مريم is the arabic translation of Mary , LOL your analogy and argument is really funny and reflects your own ignorance about Jesus and Mary. Their Hebrew original names were Yeshua and Miriyam but you would not get that since as you know little about the bible as you said LOL

He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry (BTW, there is nothing to back up that God sent Jesus a Book in the Scriptures that came before)

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan (This would have been a perfect place for Allah to state that the torah and injeel were missing or corrupted, but he didn't)

LOL your statement here is funny because God did ORGINALLY send down the Torah and Gospel but then they were corrupted as OTHER VERSES say as I have showed

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Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah. What I tried to tell you that you said didn't exist is in Sura 19:30 and 3:3 confirms that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah with no mention of corruption or a missing injil. In fact, Allah tells Muhammad the Quran which means recitation was supposed to confirm the Scripture that came before, but it doesn't confirm it; instead it usurps it.

The confirmation is to the original manuscripts which were revealed to Moses and Jesus, your lack of knowledge led you to conclude that we muslims deny the revelation to Moses and Jesus , yet the verses specifically is talking about the original torah and gospel not the current corrupt manuscripts LOL that is pathetic

Plus you took certain verses misinterperate without even reading it (since all the verses talks about what was revealed to Moses and Jesus NOT what came after) and you also ognored these verses which I have already stated in response number 74:

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Here you go :

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?Quran 1:75

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion.
Quran 4: 46

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.Quran 5:13


O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

Quran 3:71


And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187


So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79



From hadeeth :

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


Saheeh Bukhary

Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850

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The Qur'an SAYS MORE regarding the Injil:

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. ... S. 5:47 Al-Hilali & Khan That is me, I am the person of the Book speaking to 1989!!!

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry
We do this. and we have received the torah and Injil from our Lord, but you would have us doubt AS ACCURATE what your book confirms we have received!!!

Copying and pasting while lying , this is a new level even for you


The context of the verse:


You stripped the verse out of its context intentionally :
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.49 And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.

So If you actually read the verse right the verse is talking about the belivers during the time of Jesus not after , which why god said let the people of the gospel meaning the original gospel at the time of Jesus , then god said that he revealed the Quran to the prophet Muhammed and he should judge with what has been revieled to him and that the Quran had a criterion over the old scriptures. So the context is talking about the orginal gospel to the people at the time of Jesus

If you would have read the context you would have known !!!

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Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [Injil] (which are) with them. S. 7:157 Pickthall

[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan This verse here proves to you that I didn't just make things up: The torah and gospel were sent to us and Allah tells (O Muhammad) this and he says nothing about it being corrupted. We still have the same torah and gospel Allah said he sent to us and your prophet was a witness to what you now say was corrupted.

LOL you think that we muslims call the original manuscripts by names other than torah and gospel!!!!! That proves you are completely oblivious

Again verses are talking about the Origianl Torah and Gospel which were revealed to Moses and Jesus which has been altered many times till what we have now!!!

A simple 5 year old muslim would know this but the church tradition holds its grasp on your mind and understanding

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To me this verses makes clear that the Injil is the book of the Christians (the people of the Book) (ME), the book that is with me and which we Christians believe in. The Qur'an even tells us Christians to fully obey the Torah and the Injil that they had at the time your prophet was living. Can you answer to that?

Already did , or were you just sleeping and skimming through??

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I see a discrepancy: When we look at the New Testament our Scriptures, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus".

HAHAHA I wonder why !!! maybe if you read the context of the verse

PS: Now you are asking the right question

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Now please pay attention to this:

Tell that to yourself

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the Injil can either be a book given to Jesus, or it can be the book that the Christians have as their Scriptures, but it cannot be both.

You are totaly wright we say the book given to Jesus

and you have your current scripture meaning we are the followers of Jesus

You probably the follower of his enemy Satan and Paul

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Your prophet Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Qur'an

Your personal opinions and claims without proof have no shread of validity or importance in a debate

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, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, he was, IMHO, clearly #### on the matter as you are. As I have mentioned many times to you, the essential nature of the Qur'an and the Bible are very different, but you insist on judging it the way you do the Quran.

#####

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IOW, a book "given to Jesus" in the same way as Muhammad claims to have received the Qur'an does not exist. I have never claimed that such a book existed at any time nor do my Christians brothers and sisters. This claim of S. 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of your prophet.

LOL apparantly you also lack some research about your own bible , Do you know what is Gospel Q ??? I think the answer is No you don't

LOL who is ignorant now Burningwithignorance LOL that is an appropriate name for you from now on

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Had the author of the Qur'an made only statements like those found in S. 5:46 and 19:30, it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the NT clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Qur'an, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Qur'an does not endorse it

LOL Burningignorance the NT is not the injil . Injiln انجيل in arabic means Gospel , thats why arab christians say injil of Mark, Matthew , Luke and John

Congradulations who have hit the world record of Ignorance!!!

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, but instead the Quran imperfectly borrows the virgin birth story of Jesus from the Injil and denies the reason for his virgin birth instead of confirming it like Allah TOLD HIS MESSENGER IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO. You are stuck with a mess here.

Already answered that coward in my last response but you are trully Burningignorant

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The Qur'an identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians, right?

WRONG , LOL it is what has been reviled to Jesus. Read the verse correctly

oh wait!!!!! I forgot you can't read right you are a follower of the foolish Paul

which is why Islam makes more sense , actually sorry the term is Islam has sense but christianity unfortunatily has no sense in it

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Islam's prophet projected his own ideas of receiving revelation of a book (the Qur'an) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book of Jesus that was and is still held sacred by his followers and us on the forum here must also have been a book given to Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given to your messenger). However, he was wrong about this, and you follow this error. This mistake exposes the Qur'an you follow, and that is why Christianity makes more sense than Islam. IMHO, the Qur'an is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author. When you point your finger at the Bible you have four pointing back at you.

LOL All this argument is false since you are basing it on the foolish conclusion of yours (no surprise there) that we say that the injil is the NT and current christian scripture , LOL as your foolish teacher you have commited the misunderstanding error

Lets simplify it for you :

Ingil = Original gospel revealed to Jesus

I don't think you get it , this is the ignorant presenting itself within Paul's words:

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1 corinthians 11: 1

yet he call him a mystery :

And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

Colossians 4:3

And to prove the ignorance of you again as Paul is and always was

Here is what I actually asked :

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Where in the Quran did God say that the torah and gospel as light and guidance

to the prophet !!!!!!!!

To the prophet , to the prophet, not to us

as you claimed where ????

This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God

Where are the answers to my questions ????

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You keep screaming the Bible is corrupted. Many Muslim do this so don't feel singled out. When the Qur'an contradicts the Bible, Muslims shout, "but the Bible is corrupted", as if that is the answer and solution to every such problem. This is the way you deal in debate

For weeks now I wanted an answer concerning the ending of Mark which you have not answered
So when we say it is corrupted , christians use such falasies to run away from confronting the truth about their bible

We do not care about the bible we do not recognize it as a ligitemate scripture. So we do not need to actually shout out when contradiction exists . Yet we keep hearing the same phrase again and again by ignorant christians like yourself

IT DOES NOT HURT THE CENTRAL THEME

LOL actually news ***** It does

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. The Bible is corrupted it has variants that change the central gospel message, but it doesn't and you have not been able to prove how it has. You have been pawned and can't admit it. Why? Is it pride?

LOL , You have been smashed , cornered and debunked like any regular ignorant follower of Paul

Or else tell me how have you not still answered the corruption about the ressurection of Jesus in Mark !!!

Nothing you did not answer and you avoided it for weeks , so face the mirror and repeat your statement


But thank you for your confession

[QUOTE=;Burninglight]
Now let say why crying corruption won't work and kill this thing once and for all.

As I mentioned many times, the Qur'an never claims that the Injil is corrupted.

[QUOTE=;Burninglight]

LOL as usual Wrong statement which I Have proved you wrong in response 74

and which you admitted in response 76 when you say

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All the verses you quoted from the Quran are accusatory toward people of the Scripture

Of course you pathetic attampt was to ignore the verses afterwards and then after a couple of responses bring the subject up

pathetic strategy which shows the weakness of its user

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That is an inference you make. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture. What the Qur'an says about the Bible, lets investigates this matter closely and it shows that the Qur'an does not support the Muslim claim of NT Bible corruption; in fact, the Quran borrowed from it as I mentioned above. Why would it borrow from a corrupted book. LOL.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187


So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that

the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands

what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


Saheeh Bukhary

Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850

The verses speek for itself but ignorance is bliss

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Finally, even if there had been more variants then we know of (what you call corruption) of certain passages, these small changes and nonsense errors resulting in certain shifts of meaning don't effect the central gospel message, but you say it does, How?

Thank you for your second confession

Already gave you an example of a contradiction in the ressurection account between Mark and Matthew

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The Qur'an was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad supposedly. It was (supposedly) not written by your prophet, but given to him by Allah through Gabriel.

Wrong again as usual , some were by Gabriel and some directly from God

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OTOH, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did. Some of these memories are rejected by Muslims but some don't such as the satanic verses and many other such things that help us see why Christianity makes more sense than Islam.

THe bases of rejection comes from studying the chain of oral transmission . The fact that christians would nitpick from the hadeeths and choose narrations which are nonauthentic describes and completely embodies the ignorance of Paul who was a satanic worshipor :

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

2 Corinthians 4:4

or maybe it is Aron peace be upon him when the wroters of the bible accused him of making the golden calf and worshipping it

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Would it be possible for anyone to change the Qur'an (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?

Without doubt, you will say "NO." But if it is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would you or any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Your thinking is not equal if you didn't think of this. Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it?

Actually if you would have read a shread of evidence on the history of the collection of the bible you would have known that the answer was yes people protested . The book of revelations was not adopted by many churches till the late 4th century as one example

It is your complete ignorance in history, facts, bible , Quran which is preasented in most christians today

This is one just one of the many examples why christianity actually has no sense in it

And Islam is superior

Thanks for the confessions by the way

[Burninglight]

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This is one just one of the many examples why christianity actually has no sense in it

And Islam is superior

Thanks for the confessions by the way

The gospel is part of the NT. The point is there is no evidence that the gospel you attack was accused of corruption in the Quran; This could be why it imperfectly borrowed the virgin birth story from it. As for your statement that Islam is superior, you are entitled to your opinion. Do you feel it is superior for borrowing from our gospel that was never given to Jesus as stated in the Quran. Maybe you should think and pray on it before you come up with knee jerk responses of rudeness. On the other hand, I really don't see the point discussing any further with you. Your mind is obviously made up, and you don't want to be confused with the facts.

May God have mercy on your soul

[محمد سني 1989]

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The gospel is part of the NT. The point is there is no evidence that the gospel you attack was accused of corruption in the Quran; This could be why it imperfectly borrowed the virgin birth story from it. As for your statement that Islam is superior, you are entitled to your opinion. Do you feel it is superior for borrowing from our gospel that was never given to Jesus as stated in the Quran. Maybe you should think and pray on it before you come up with knee jerk responses of rudeness. On the other hand, I really don't see the point discussing any further with you. Your mind is obviously made up, and you don't want to be confused with the facts.

May God have mercy on your soul

LOL obviously you agan avoided what I said TWICE about the corruption of the Gospel :

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And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187


So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that

the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands

what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


Saheeh Bukhary

Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850

The verses speek for itself but ignorance is bliss

Showing as usual the ignoring and change topic strategy you posses

Also you failed to answer my questions for the SECOND time

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Where in the Quran did God say that the torah and gospel as light and guidance

to the prophet !!!!!!!!

To the prophet , to the prophet, not to us

as you claimed where ????

This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God

Where are the answers to my questions ????