Quote
Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
God is spirit and He is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. That verse says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God. You don't understand Christianity and the disciples intentions and understanding we do because we are the people of the Book. you are not and don't understand. Yes, the Quran says Jesus is the word be, but this make a argument for Jesus being the I am He claimed to be just as God told Moses I am that I am. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" Did you not know and hasn't it been told to you from the beginning that I am is a form of Be? Jesus is the word "Be" God use to create all things. The word of God is uncreated and eternal. This is where you error not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. The Bible is not corrupted as you would have us believe. Even the Quran proves it. You infer from it whast you want to believe; therefore I can do the same.

Sura 3:3 says:



He has sent down upon thee the Book with truth,
confirming what was before it,
and he sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime. [Arberry]

The parallel statement in regard to this "sending down" is captured even better in Pickthall's translation which reads:



He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth
confirming that which was (revealed) before it,
EVEN AS He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

"Even as" = "in just the same way." The Arabic itself doesn't say "just as" but it makes the exact same statement about both, and has no hint that it should be understood in a different way. Furthermore have a look at Sura 4:47, stating:

You who have been given the Book,
believe in what We have sent down,
confirming what _IS_ with you. [Arberry]
O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given!
Believe in what We have revealed
confirming THAT WHICH YE POSSESS. [Pickthall]

Can anyone really be justified in saying that the Qur'an does not speak about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians which they have in their possession at the time of Muhammad but about some other "scriptural entity" which we really can't know what it is or was, ...?? You Muslims make the claim that it is certainly NOT speaking about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they are today, even though there is no doubt that they are the same as what the Jews and Christians had in the 7th century. [The New Testament is today translated from manuscripts that date 250 years before Muhammad]. The onus is on you along with the burden of proof that the Scriptures we have today aren't the same as during your prophet's life time and before; moreover, the burden of proof is on you to show how, when, where, and why the Scripture were corrupted and why God chose not to preserve what he promised would be established forever and what Allah commanded we stand on as people of the Book. How can you say you have something better to offer us people of the Book?

Peace
You do not understand christianity so I am not surprised when you make such huge mistakes with the Quran

The actual translation of Quran 3: 3 is :

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.



No even as here , Picktalls own view does not matter since this Even as is does not go with the Arabic context nor its meaning . و انزل not كما انزل

However even if it says what you are claiming it would not change anything since this verse is talking about the uncorrupted scriptures and I have already stated this before but you as usual chose to ignore

Sura 4: 47 You stripped it from its context probably because you copied and pasted it from others , here is verses 46 -47 in their right translation :
46 Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.47 O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

The tafseer:(ibn katheer's tafseer) verse 46:

(there are some who displace words from (their) right places) meaning, they intentionally and falsely alter the meanings of the Words of Allah and explain them in a different manner than what Allah meant,

And say: "We hear your word and disobey) saying, "We hear what you say, O Muhammad, but we do not obey you in it,'' as Mujahid and Ibn Zayd explained. This is the implied meaning of the Ayah, and it demonstrates the Jews' disbelief, stubbornness and disregard for Allah's Book after they understood it, all the while aware of the sin and punishment that this behavior will earn for them. Allah's statement


Tafseer ibn katheer verse 47:

Allah commands the People of the Scriptures to believe in what He has sent down to His servant and Messenger, Muhammad ,



Your understanding is again like pandora based upon the misunderstanding between

manipulation and replacement. We do not say that all the bible was corrupted (replaced) or

you would not have similarities with us like the story of Moses rather there has been many

manipulation to the original text but some of it still exist one was the prophets name in

some of its original state


AS for your first answer :

You have again proved to me that you lack serious knowledge about islamic beliefs , you

apply christian standards to islamic texts which is clearly ridicolous. The word be which

god used in the Quran was not the same word he used to create jesus , I already explained

this but you applied your understanding of John 1 on the islamic tafseer and the passage

when I infact was not talking about John 1 rather showing the difference between the our

beliefs when it comes to the understanding of the word of god .

His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

Surah Yasin verse 82


Also god describes the creation of jesus as the creation of Adam by the word be :


Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.


ِAl imran verse 59


This explains the word reffered to in this verse :
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

ِAl nisa verse 171

So the word of god from islamic understanding means the word be that was sent down to create jesus in the womb of mary just like the word be which god said when he created Adam

Tafseer of verse 171:

(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from ﴿created by﴾ Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril.

Source : tafseer ibn katheer

As for finally what you said about the spirit in the passage I quoted again you are just

clearly throwing blunt acussations without actually answering , what you are saying is that

God is the holy ghost because god is the holy ghost !!!!!

You still failed to answer that the man lied to the deciples and the reply was that he lied to

the holy ghost with agreement to this passage here :




Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

So this actually does not prove trinity at all


The OT is clear against any kind of trinitarian belief:


God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Numbers 23: 19

This should be enough but misinterpritation is a powerful tool which Satan uses to delude and dissuade people from the truth


However for the passage before Abraham I am the actual translation of the greek text is actually :


I have seen Abraham before he was even born

This actually describes the context much better and is the reasonable answer to the jews at that time :

56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"


peace