the old testement does not teach us that sin is inherited but christianity do :
one example :
[/FONT][/COLOR]12[COLOR=#001320]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-
Romans 5:12
Seven : Christianity clearly teaches us that himanity inherited a simple sin from eating from a tree and that without the sacrifice of the son of god death was upon humanity , the quote is death in Adam, Life in Jesus!!!!!
Satan wants you to think you are doomed and you have no hope so that you can say whats the point
Satan is also crafty in another way; he comes and tells you are free from sin as long as you believe in that the son of god has taken the burdon and has died for any possible sin you could commit but ONLY AS LONG YOU BELIEVE IN THAT IDEA!!
peace to you and may god guide you to truth
The truth is we don't inherit another's sin. We commit our own sin. As a result of Adam's sin, sin entered into the world, but we commit our own sin; however, as a result of the last Adam (Jesus) righteousness can be received, but we must choose to meet God on His terms. You see sin is anything that separates one from God.
God must punish sin, because He is perfectly just. Jesus is like our big brother who took the punishment for us and this satisfied God's justice. Without Christ as our mediator, we must pay for our own sin which is to be cut off from God forever. Jesus said in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. People are in hell saying "give me another chance to accept Christ as my savior so I don't have to suffer anymore punishment and torment" They will be told; "you had a chance." People's only hope in hell is that no one else goes to that horrible place of torment.
Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He... No one comes to God except through me." Christians aren't the ones who call Jesus the divine son of God; it is the Scriptures that allude to Christ's divinity and it is the Scriptures that explicitly state Jesus is the son of God. God is who I choose to believe. I am not going to let an Islamic message pull me away from the truth. If Islam's prophet was all you say, the Bible would be replete with clear reference that cut a straight unequivocal path to Him, but God didn't do that so Muslims don't have to pick out ambiguity to confirm the right path when Jesus told you straight out "I am the way" Muslims ignore this at their own spiritual peril.
Again I am not arguing with you about whether Adam sinned or not (disobeyed or not ) Everybody agrees that he ate from the tree , the focus here is on the MAGNITUDE OF BLAME ON EVE AND HOW ADAM AND THE BIBLE PORTRAYES HER PLEASE FOCUS
As for Adam passing blame : Adam passed blame in the bible to Eve not god in Genesis 3:12
The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Also according to Genesis 3: 17 17 But to Adam he said, “Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground thanks to you; in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
To answer your question about this passage , Your question does not make sense since it was his listening to Eve that led him to the disobedience of god . Please try to focus here is what god replied in the bible : But to Adam he said, “Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you
As for the last passage Yes god is blaming her : Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
This is because the question was retorical and because gGOD HAS ALREADY ASKED ADAM BEFORE : 12The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate
SO ADAM THREW THE BLAME ON EVE AND GOD ASKED HER RETORICALLY WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ??? PUTTING THE BLAME OF ADAM EATING ON EVE , EVE REPLIED THAT THE SERPENT HAVE DECIEVED HER NOT THEM BUT HER
I think the context is clear enough to everybody
For your last point that is just a claim with no evidence :
first the context does not talk about spiritual death :
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 17
The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit from the trees of the orchard; 3 but concerning the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the orchard God said, ‘You must not eat from it, and you must not touch it, or else you will die.’ Genesis 3: 2-3
The death here is only a physical death since the serpent replies to eve by : 4 The serpent said to the woman, “Surely you will not die, 5 for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like divine beings who know good and evil.”
So was there openess of eyes spiritual or physical ? it was physical : 7 Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Genesis 3: 7
Second it was god who said they would die not the serpent
Sorry, but what is the point you are trying to make here? Satan was not right in saying "you shall not surely die." God didn't say Adam would die immediately after he ate or touched the fruit; so, He was as right as God always is. When Adam ate, the death process started in his physical body just as it is with us today. As you read this post, you are come that much closer to your physical death. It is written: "It is appoint unto man once to die; after that comes the judgment." We don't fear the judgment after physical death, because we have not be appointed unto wrath, and Jesus took the sting out of death for us. The last Adam (Christ) makes us right with God, and He helps us live perfectly before God as the Lord continually transforms us to the image of His son! We people of the Book know in whom we have believed.
[SIZE=5]Jazak Allah khair brother Muhammad, you replied beautifully, I just do not have time to go back and forth with people twisting the truth. A whole doctrine is based on lie, and you do not want to them to lie?
I quote what the bible says, and he says “So you believe Satan is right and God is wrong? That is sad.”
I told you what the Quran says, Satan was lying not God as your bible claim!! And I agree it is very sad, some people believe that.]
It is sad. I know you mean it in the sense that the Bible is the lie, but the Scripture says "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." You might sincerely believe that you're not saying Satan is right and God is wrong, but inadvertently that is what you're doing. You are sincere, but sincerely wrong, and you patronize me with "I don't have time for this" as if you have the corner on truth and what I share is not true. I am spending time trying correct your misconceptions of Christianity and you act as if your time is better than mine, pfft. Yes, it is very sad.
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Originally Posted by huria
[SIZE=5]
I think we have established nothing has accurately been documented in the bible from my thread, who wrote the bible.
The Bible was written by men inspired by God. It is not written the way you believe the Quran was written. You seem to believe God would leave His creation without His uncorrupted word or central message for a thousand + years until he could bring a messenger of Islam to straighten out what needed no correction. This makes no sense to me at all. Joseph Smith tried it and people are sucked into lies by the millions because they are willing to drop the Bible at a drop of the hat.
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Originally Posted by huria
[SIZE=5]
The bible is like Chinese whisper been changing since it was first written to this day. So really nothing to copy from it thanks!!. The Quran however is not only preserved in written format, it is also memorized by millions to this day.
Are you sure about that? How can you prove the Quran has been perfectly preserved after those that memorized it were killed in battle and Uthman burn the Qurans only to recompile it in a way to unify Muslims. Besides, who gave Uthman the divine mandate to put the recitation to writing after your prophet's death? Who is the prophet of the Quran? Is it Uthman? and who is Allah's editor? Is it Uthman? The truth is you cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran; all you have is faith like us Christians, but it certainly matters where you put your faith doesn't it? You must prove the Quran is perfectly preserved not just say what you want people to believe; finally, after you prove that you must prove it is from our Creator. A newspaper can be perfectly preserved, but that doesn't mean it is from God or does it to you?
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Originally Posted by huria
As I said, I am really pressured with time, especially if people seem to just twist the truth. I rather use my energy in better avenue. I wrote this myself, as it seem to be confusion about the beginning, and that we have copied from the bible lol what is there to copy really!! But every claim like this, it give me more energy to write something on that topic, so hopefully if Allah wills, I will write about
has the Quran borrowed from a corrupted book?
If you are so pressured for time stop responding with false statements. No one is trying to twist the truth; Everyone on this forum has been sincere. If you had a ounce of discernment, you would have been able to realize it on your own. It appears to me you copied the virgin birth of Jesus from the NT Bible. It was written there first wasn't it? The twisting of truth comes in when you reject the reason the Bible gives for His virgin birth. I can't think of a better way to spend my time than to reach people with the truth or die trying. This may not important to you, because you don't know Jesus or the father!
The truth is we don't inherit another's sin. We commit our own sin. As a result of Adam's sin, sin entered into the world, but we commit our own sin; however, as a result of the last Adam (Jesus) righteousness can be received, but we must choose to meet God on His terms. You see sin is anything that separates one from God.
God must punish sin, because He is perfectly just. Jesus is like our big brother who took the punishment for us and this satisfied God's justice. Without Christ as our mediator, we must pay for our own sin which is to be cut off from God forever. Jesus said in hell there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. People are in hell saying "give me another chance to accept Christ as my savior so I don't have to suffer anymore punishment and torment" They will be told; "you had a chance." People's only hope in hell is that no one else goes to that horrible place of torment.
Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He... No one comes to God except through me." Christians aren't the ones who call Jesus the divine son of God; it is the Scriptures that allude to Christ's divinity and it is the Scriptures that explicitly state Jesus is the son of God. God is who I choose to believe. I am not going to let an Islamic message pull me away from the truth. If Islam's prophet was all you say, the Bible would be replete with clear reference that cut a straight unequivocal path to Him, but God didn't do that so Muslims don't have to pick out ambiguity to confirm the right path when Jesus told you straight out "I am the way" Muslims ignore this at their own spiritual peril.
I wish you peace and truth
I really don't see the point of this response > I mean you did not explain the passage in Romans which CLEARLY CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAY :
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5: 12-14
14 clealry states that even those who were not sinful inherited the sin even at the time of moses peace be upon him the expression : Death in Adam , Life in Jesus
Almost all christians belive in the inherited sin of Adam peace be upon him so This just reflects your own opinion
As for your last point I already answered that and gave you SOME examples from many in the bible in a previous post and since this is not the subject of the thread I will just provide you with a video to watch :
…24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." 25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
Jesus reafirms here that he is sent from god ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ASKED WHO HE IS So we are the followers of the proiphet jesus peace be upon him NOT YOU . The fact that you ommitted this passage shows that
Sorry, but what is the point you are trying to make here? Satan was not right in saying "you shall not surely die." God didn't say Adam would die immediately after he ate or touched the fruit; so, He was as right as God always is. When Adam ate, the death process started in his physical body just as it is with us today. As you read this post, you are come that much closer to your physical death. It is written: "It is appoint unto man once to die; after that comes the judgment." We don't fear the judgment after physical death, because we have not be appointed unto wrath, and Jesus took the sting out of death for us. The last Adam (Christ) makes us right with God, and He helps us live perfectly before God as the Lord continually transforms us to the image of His son! We people of the Book know in whom we have believed.
Peace be unto you
Of couse here you ignored my whole response and focussed on just what is physical and so on
You claimed there was a spiritual death in the previous response, this response was just to proves to you that the text is not talking in a retorical way there is only the physical death in the passage
It is sad. I know you mean it in the sense that the Bible is the lie, but the Scripture says "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." You might sincerely believe that you're not saying Satan is right and God is wrong, but inadvertently that is what you're doing. You are sincere, but sincerely wrong, and you patronize me with "I don't have time for this" as if you have the corner on truth and what I share is not true. I am spending time trying correct your misconceptions of Christianity and you act as if your time is better than mine, pfft. Yes, it is very sad.
The Bible was written by men inspired by God. It is not written the way you believe the Quran was written. You seem to believe God would leave His creation without His uncorrupted word or central message for a thousand + years until he could bring a messenger of Islam to straighten out what needed no correction. This makes no sense to me at all. Joseph Smith tried it and people are sucked into lies by the millions because they are willing to drop the Bible at a drop of the hat.
Are you sure about that? How can you prove the Quran has been perfectly preserved after those that memorized it were killed in battle and Uthman burn the Qurans only to recompile it in a way to unify Muslims. Besides, who gave Uthman the divine mandate to put the recitation to writing after your prophet's death? Who is the prophet of the Quran? Is it Uthman? and who is Allah's editor? Is it Uthman? The truth is you cannot prove perfect preservation of the Quran; all you have is faith like us Christians, but it certainly matters where you put your faith doesn't it? You must prove the Quran is perfectly preserved not just say what you want people to believe; finally, after you prove that you must prove it is from our Creator. A newspaper can be perfectly preserved, but that doesn't mean it is from God or does it to you?
If you are so pressured for time stop responding with false statements. No one is trying to twist the truth; Everyone on this forum has been sincere. If you had a ounce of discernment, you would have been able to realize it on your own. It appears to me you copied the virgin birth of Jesus from the NT Bible. It was written there first wasn't it? The twisting of truth comes in when you reject the reason the Bible gives for His virgin birth. I can't think of a better way to spend my time than to reach people with the truth or die trying. This may not important to you, because you don't know Jesus or the father!
You are loved, blessing and peace be unto you.
First the doctrine of lie in Paul :
1 Corinthians chapter 9 verses 19-22:
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some
2 Corinthians chapter 12:16:
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery
Romans 3:5-7: 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 Absolutely not! For otherwise how could God judge the world? 7 For if by my lie the truth of God enhances his glory, why am I still actually being judged as a sinner?
As for the bible the gospel , the gospel was first revealed to jesus peace be upon him then corrupted after god raised for some time : examples:
1. We do not know who wrote the gospels it is credited to people without evidence , people who spoke aramaic and apparantly in the end of their lives learned to read and write Greek!!!
2. The oldest new testement manuscript wich is named p52 a small fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND CENTURY contains some variations
3.The oldest COMPLETE NEW TESTEMENT Codex SinaiticuDating to almost 350 AD conatains multiple multiple variations , such as the resurection story in mark ends at : ”8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
As for the Quran < I am surprised by your lack of information :
First : not all of the memorizers of the Quran died in the battle of Yamamah There still were Zaid ibn thabit, Abdullah ibn masud , Ubay ibn kaab , Ali ibn abi talib , Abu bakr and many many muslims
Zaid was the one who wrote the Quran to Abubakr and managed to use that same copy to make multiple copies of it by the order of Uthman may god be pleased with them , Zaid was also ONE OF THE PEOPLE WRITTING TH QURAN DURING THE TIME OF THE PROPHET PEACE BE UPON HIM
Here is how the Quran was gathered :
First the quran was written during the time of muhammed peace be upon him : Anas said, "The Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of the Prophet () by four (men), all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai, Mu`adh bin Jabal, Abu Zaid and Zaid bin Thabit." I asked Anas, "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said, "One of my uncles."
ٍSahih Al bukahari Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 155
THEN compiled during the time of Abu bakr the first Caliph a YEAR after the death of the prophet : Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed). (I went to him) and found `Umar bin Al- Khattab sitting with him........ Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book.........So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuza`ima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. ....... Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.
Sahih al-Bukhari 4986,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 509 This same copy which was in hafsa's hand was given to uthman to make copies of :
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. ........So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman........They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.
Sahih al-Bukhari 4987,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 510
So as you can see the quran was preserved from the time of the prophet written and then compiled in one copy by zaid ibn thabit during the first caliph a YEAR AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET and that same copy used to make many copiesof it to distribute it
It is sad. I know you mean it in the sense that the Bible is the lie, but the Scripture says "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." You might sincerely believe that you're not saying Satan is right and God is wrong, but inadvertently that is what you're doing.
Again you trying to make me say things I have not said, I said you Christians claim this according to your bible, the fact that you Claim God said to them you will die when you eat this. Then you trying to twist the truth by having different interpretation to justify your belief, by twisting the verse to say what you want them to say!
You are sincere, but sincerely wrong, and you patronize me with "I don't have time for this" as if you have the corner on truth and what I share is not true. I am spending time trying correct your misconceptions of Christianity and you act as if your time is better than mine, pfft. Yes, it is very sad.
I never said my time was better than yours, you are saying that. I said I don’t have time for people who twist the truth, there are people who are sincere, and I am not saying you have to agree with me, just don’t twist the truths, and make me say things I have not said because that is patronising.
You seem to believe God would leave His creation without His uncorrupted word or central message for a thousand + years until he could bring a messenger of Islam to straighten out what needed no correction. This makes no sense to me at all. Joseph Smith tried it and people are sucked into lies by the millions because they are willing to drop the Bible at a drop of the hat.
Well Islam does not make sense to you because you do not want it to make sense but let me put this in prospective, as a lot of Christians do not bother searching for Islam from its source, they just use the same hate propaganda that been used against Islam in years. For me if Muslims claim something against Christianity, I will hear from both sides, and I don’t just carry what I have been told, there are cases Christians will answer some aspects credibly, and it make sense to me (not the whole religion) but some aspects, they have valid answers for. Christians I discuss with however, they try to twist the truth, and as I said the same old lies against Islam, like we are in debate war, it is not who win the debate that matters, it is who will have the last laugh in the life after.
Now let’s write the simple story of Islam, God created Angels, and Jin, and then Human. He created Adam peace be upon him, the father of humanity with desires, and free will, we have freedom of will, responsibility for our choice of action and the consequent accountability before God, the same goes for Jin except Satan or Iblis.
Angeles in Islam do not sin, they have no free will, they do what they are told from God, and unlike Christianity we don’t believe that Satan was an angel, he was great servant of God but he disobeyed God, and the difference between his disobedience and of Adam, that Adam repented while Iblis refuse to repent, and his only ask from God was just delay my punishment until judgement day, and I will bring to hell as much as I could from the son of Adam.
((Iblis) said: “See this one whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring all but a few!”) (Quran 17:62).
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65).
God created us, and then thought our father how to repent, and who is his enemy. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message is the same worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger.
Every messenger came with miracles, and books but Satan will send people astray from the truth then God will send, another messenger. People go astray, even to this day, you see so many sects, and divisions in one religion, they cannot be all the truth.
If God only sent one messenger and one book then people will complain why he did not send more, but God has sent many messengers, and every time the book get changed, corrupted etc so God sealed the religion with one more messengers, as prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as last messenger, and he did not come with new message it was the same “The Lord our God, the Lord is one” the only difference this time, since people like to see themselves, there were no more messengers, so how about miracles ? it had to stay, so God promised to preserve the last book from corruption, and that by itself is a miracle. Although it is miracles in many other aspects but that warrant another thread.
This is the story of Islam in short so what does not make sense??, as I explained God did not leave people without a message, and also prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with new messages, it was the same of all prophets, Adam, Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses, and every messenger peace be upon them all.
Human are created with desires, and free will, animals only have desires. Islam teaches that what is halal (permissible), you can enjoy, and what is not allowed you avoid, as human are created with desires, God did not deprive us but he sets limits for us for example, marriage is permissible in Islam but fornication is not. That why we Muslims, find that priests and nuns who decide to not get married ever very strange, we see them as human who are been deprived of natural feelings, so when we read of news of priests scandals with kids, it does not surprise us at all, because when you deprive human of natural feelings, they become animals. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam.
We human sin because we were created that way , AND not because Adam and eve brought it for us or because we inherited.
Now let’s hear the story of Christianity, God created Adam and Eve, and he forbid them from eating from one tree and when they do eat from the tree God does not forgive them, and he sent messenger after messenger and these messengers none of them mention that the son of God will be crucified. In fact after thousands of years, the son of God appear, he does not even say to them I am going to be crucified, so God the father send his son while his son is him, and holy spirit is him too but never in order of Holy spirit, son, then Father even though they are equal!! So any way in order to go back to paradise and redeem ourselves from the sin our father and mother committed we have to accept that the son of God was spat on killed, and humiliated, and accepting this humiliation upon the son of God you gain your salivation., makes perfect sense!
Well Islam does not make sense to you because you do not want it to make sense but let me put this in prospective, as a lot of Christians do not bother searching for Islam from its source, they just use the same hate propaganda that been used against Islam in years. For me if Muslims claim something against Christianity, I will hear from both sides, and I don’t just carry what I have been told, there are cases Christians will answer some aspects credibly, and it make sense to me (not the whole religion) but some aspects, they have valid answers for. Christians I discuss with however, they try to twist the truth, and as I said the same old lies against Islam, like we are in debate war, it is not who win the debate that matters, it is who will have the last laugh in the life after.
My source is the Quran and talking to muslims like yourself. With all due respect it does not seem you take your information of the Bible from the Bible itself by reading it in the context it was meant.. If you did I fear you would not say the things you do half the time. However, just as I am not a Muslim and so the Quran does not make sense to me then I expect the same goes for you in regards to the Bible.. It comes down to context and understanding the nature of the work. Muslims tend to judge the Bible by the same standards they set for the Quran, it is not possible to do this in any meaningful way. For a start the Quran is just one little book, the Bible is not.. But a collection of books. As for having the last laugh... Well that a really sad outlook to have in regards to the important matter of ones future eternal salvation. I do so hope the last laugh is not on yourself. If you permit I would like to make some observations about the account you have given in regards to Adam and Eve, and why it does not make as much sense as the Biblical version, which btw you have not given a very accurate account of.
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Now let’s write the simple story of Islam, God created Angels, and Jin, and then Human. He created Adam peace be upon him, the father of humanity with desires, and free will, we have freedom of will, responsibility for our choice of action and the consequent accountability before God, the same goes for Jin except Satan or Iblis.
I agree that we are all created as Adam was with free will. This is because worship is worthless unless it is freely given..otherwise God could have created us as automatons if all He wished was for mankind to worship Him. I agree.. And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same. I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them. Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for his part in the fall of man.
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Angeles in Islam do not sin, they have no free will, they do what they are told from God, and unlike Christianity we don’t believe that Satan was an angel, he was great servant of God but he disobeyed God, and the difference between his disobedience and of Adam, that Adam repented while Iblis refuse to repent, and his only ask from God was just delay my punishment until judgement day, and I will bring to hell as much as I could from the son of Adam.
((Iblis) said: “See this one whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring all but a few!”) (Quran 17:62).
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65).
when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose? Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition? We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created. That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..
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God created us, and then thought our father how to repent, and who is his enemy. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message is the same worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger.
we do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family. He was a lesson to mankind... To serve as a reminder of Gods power and the consequences of disobedience towards God. An example of how sin prevents our communion with a Holy God. His message was not to worship the one god... If it were he failed miserably as most of mankind adopted pagan ways and worshipped idols. His message was to trust in the One God, because only through the one true God is mankind saved. Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit... And the message was always more important than the messenger. Messengers cMe and went for they are naught but mortal.. The word is eternal.
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Every messenger came with miracles, and books but Satan will send people astray from the truth then God will send, another messenger. People go astray, even to this day, you see so many sects, and divisions in one religion, they cannot be all the truth.
If God only sent one messenger and one book then people will complain why he did not send more, but God has sent many messengers, and every time the book get changed, corrupted etc so God sealed the religion with one more messengers, as prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as last messenger, and he did not come with new message it was the same “The Lord our God, the Lord is one” the only difference this time, since people like to see themselves, there were no more messengers, so how about miracles ? it had to stay, so God promised to preserve the last book from corruption, and that by itself is a miracle. Although it is miracles in many other aspects but that warrant another thread.
not every messenger came with miracles and not all miracles were from God. That is why we are told to test the prophets before we accept the message they bring is valid. We are told that many false prophets will come and lead people astray. From a biblical perspective the fact that so many prophets were chosen was simply the fact of human lifespan did not allow for Gods plan to be given in one fell swoop.. It was meant for different peoples from different times with the common theme that apart from worshipping and obeying the one God we also need God for our salvation and if we deviate from the path He places us on we do so at our peril.
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This is the story of Islam in short so what does not make sense??, as I explained God did not leave people without a message, and also prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with new messages, it was the same of all prophets, Adam, Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses, and every messenger peace be upon them all.
prophet Mohammed did not bring the same message as the biblical prophets. You just tell yourself that the message was just to worship the one God, as Jews and Christians were worshipping the one true God ... YHWH.. Then I fail to see what was the point of the prophet Mohammed's revelation or what it brought new to the redemption of mankind that mankind had not already been given. Personally, I believe prophet Mohammed was sent to the pagans of Arabia to bring them to the one true God.
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Human are created with desires, and free will, animals only have desires. Islam teaches that what is halal (permissible), you can enjoy, and what is not allowed you avoid, as human are created with desires, God did not deprive us but he sets limits for us for example, marriage is permissible in Islam but fornication is not. That why we Muslims, find that priests and nuns who decide to not get married ever very strange, we see them as human who are been deprived of natural feelings, so when we read of news of priests scandals with kids, it does not surprise us at all, because when you deprive human of natural feelings, they become animals. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam.
we don't see that messengers are protected in any way from sin.. And sin is sin before God, weather big or small. We cannot judge how a Holy God views sin. Although if you say it's the view of a majority of scholars.. Then they have just arrived at that conclusion and are in danger of ascribing something to God that is not of God.
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We human sin because we were created that way , AND not because Adam and eve brought it for us or because we inherited.
Now let’s hear the story of Christianity, God created Adam and Eve, and he forbid them from eating from one tree and when they do eat from the tree God does not forgive them, and he sent messenger after messenger and these messengers none of them mention that the son of God will be crucified. In fact after thousands of years, the son of God appear, he does not even say to them I am going to be crucified, so God the father send his son while his son is him, and holy spirit is him too but never in order of Holy spirit, son, then Father even though they are equal!! So any way in order to go back to paradise and redeem ourselves from the sin our father and mother committed we have to accept that the son of God was spat on killed, and humiliated, and accepting this humiliation upon the son of God you gain your salivation., makes perfect sense!
Demands on my time means I will have to address the rest of your post later,
We human sin because we were created that way , AND not because Adam and eve brought it for us or because we inherited.
Now let’s hear the story of Christianity, God created Adam and Eve, and he forbid them from eating from one tree and when they do eat from the tree God does not forgive them, and he sent messenger after messenger and these messengers none of them mention that the son of God will be crucified. In fact after thousands of years, the son of God appear, he does not even say to them I am going to be crucified, so God the father send his son while his son is him, and holy spirit is him too but never in order of Holy spirit, son, then Father even though they are equal!! So any way in order to go back to paradise and redeem ourselves from the sin our father and mother committed we have to accept that the son of God was spat on killed, and humiliated, and accepting this humiliation upon the son of God you gain your salivation., makes perfect sense!
the Bible teaches that God made us in His image... So one has to ask why would God then create man that was not perfect as God is perfect? What kind of God creates His best creation man.. (And as man is given dominion over the animals then for sure we must believe we are of His best creation). As flawed, in such a way that has consequences for mankind being separated from God the creator.. Especially as God created man for communion with Him? The Bible makes more sense if man was meant to take his place with God, and in order to do so has to be perfect as God is perfect. If man is tainted by sin ergo man is no longer perfect and forfeits his right to communion with God. Btw.. As already said it is not Adams sin we inherit but the sin nature.. Proof of that is the human condition, as we know no one is sinless (except for the Christ) every sin has a consequence, to ourselves, to those we sin against and to God. God sets the standard as by which mankind makes atonement for sin. Christianity teaches that we cannot atone for sin my our own efforts because we can never be as great and as good as God.. God knows this and through His divine mercy and love has given us the means to make ourselves righteous once more.. A saviour and redeemer in Jesus Christ. Obviously you disagree and it's your right to do so. However, as the Bible teaches this and Jesus said that no one gets to the Father except by Him..I believe Him and have accepted His surety on this matter. It makes more sense to me than an arbitrary God who can forgive or not forgive as God pleases.. Thereby ignoring His own divine standard of being just.
There are over 30 prophecies concerning the Crucifixion in the Old Testament alone to include a few
in Genesis Chapters 3
It is recorded in Genesis 3:14-15, "So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."
Genesis Chapters 5
"Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the Blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort."
In Psalm 22 there are many verses which clearly look forward to the Crucifixion.... As there is also in Isaiah 52
Isaiah 53
3: "He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. …..he was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4: Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows
5: But He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6: the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth
9: And they made His grave with the wicked - but with the rich at His death
11: for He shall bear their iniquities.
12: because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors
Jesus Himself said... "He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it. Mark 9 30:32
And also ..
Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life". Matthew 20 17:19
You do not understand the nature of God that is revealed in the Bible.. God is Spirit, and God is His Word.. Eternal and uncreated. The verses that express Gods Holy Spirit and His Word (Jesus) are too numerous to list. I don't know how you can deny God is Spirit to be worshipped in truth.. And how does God communicate with man if not through His word?
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are essentially equal.. As they are all divine in nature. However, in the grand plan of redemption, they play certain roles, and these roles define authority and subservience. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Father is greater than I... Jesus commanded the Holy Spirit as he promised he would send the Spirit (comforter, advocate) in His name to guide the disciples. The father is supreme and neither the son (Word) or Spirit act contrary to Gods will.
We do not accept Christ in order to redeem ourselves from the sins of others..(parents or forefathers). But of our own sins... In order to become righteous before God, God was never humiliated or spat upon... Any pain and humiliation is a transitory state for the greater good of mankind. You don't see that.. That's fine. Jesus said ...
***12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15 12:15 ***
***“We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” John 4:13-18***
Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989
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