Adam and Eve in the Bible and the Quran

[pandora]

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Here you go two examples of repentance without blood :

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 3: 9-10

Do you mean repentance or forgiveness of sins? One has to be truly repentant in order to be forgiven by God this is clear from scripture. What this passage in Jonah is saying that God relented, and withheld the promised calamity or destruction against the people of Nineveh.. Which was deserved for their evil.. By appearing repentant they avert the judgement. God can do that... If God always dispensed His divine judgement upon evil doers.. Who would be left? It does not say God forgave them. History shows that two generations later God did indeed bring destruction on Nineveh and the Assyrian nation she represented. Theirs was not a true and lasting repentance. The message of Jonah is not the repentance of the people of Nineveh but the sovereignty of God who accomplishes His purpose... Even despite disobedient prophets, such as Jonah. Which if you read about Jonah you will see. Also the people of Nineveh were not Israelites and would not be under the law of the Torah.

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the repentence of David

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15

O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise.

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise

Psalms 51: 15-17

Psalm 51 was written by King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover his sin... I understand you do not hold with this account, on that basis you won't understand the context of the passage, as you deny the event happened then why would the passage have any relevance at all for yourself!!


Psalm 51:17 says... "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." The meaning of this is connected with the verse just before it. In verse 16 ... "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.


Take note ...although David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, he makes this statement to God... "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" verse 4.. David understood how his sin effects a Holy God. Sin is a violation of Gods nature. One can be truly repentant and yes God forgives those who are truly repentant where it counts in their heart.. However, that act of repentance does not remove the consequence of the sin, that bears a penalty.. Which has to be paid for. As God is just.

Peace unto you

[محمد سني 1989]

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[SIZE=5][RIGHT]Do you mean repentance or forgiveness of sins? One has to be truly repentant in order to be forgiven by God this is clear from scripture. What this passage in Jonah is saying that God relented, and withheld the promised calamity or destruction against the people of Nineveh.. Which was deserved for their evil.. By appearing repentant they avert the judgement. God can do that... If God always dispensed His divine judgement upon evil doers.. Who would be left? It does not say God forgave them. History shows that two generations later God did indeed bring destruction on Nineveh and the Assyrian nation she represented. Theirs was not a true and lasting repentance. The message of Jonah is not the repentance of the people of Nineveh but the sovereignty of God who accomplishes His purpose... Even despite disobedient prophets, such as Jonah. Which if you read about Jonah you will see. Also the people of Nineveh were not Israelites and would not be under the law of the Torah.



Psalm 51 was written by King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover his sin... I understand you do not hold with this account, on that basis you won't understand the context of the passage, as you deny the event happened then why would the passage have any relevance at all for yourself!!


Psalm 51:17 says... "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." The meaning of this is connected with the verse just before it. In verse 16 ... "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.


Take note ...although David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, he makes this statement to God... "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" verse 4.. David understood how his sin effects a Holy God. Sin is a violation of Gods nature. One can be truly repentant and yes God forgives those who are truly repentant where it counts in their heart.. However, that act of repentance does not remove the consequence of the sin, that bears a penalty.. Which has to be paid for. As God is just.

Peace unto you

First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

Second : As for your answer concerning Jonah , now you talking about simple technicalities

first the text starts by this :

4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming,“Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Jonah 3: 4-5


So this text clearly describe them believing in god that itself is repentece since they according to the text here truly became believers , the text also goes on according to the new international version of the bible :
8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

So the text describes them as clearly returning from evil and leaving that to go to god , if they were unbelievers they would have been destroyed like the people of Noa for example.

Note: We muslims do not believe in the rest of the stories about Jonah's disobedience in Jonah 4 , nor it is written in the quran nor in the hadeeth . It is also not the subject of our discussion


Third: I do understand the context of the passage but apparantly you don't undestand how debates work , Again we do not believe that David peace be upon him committed adoltrey BUT you do so I am quoting it.

However your statement here contradicts the text :

David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.

This statement is contradicted by what david said according to the bible:

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

David clearly here is saying that sacrifice for this sin to repent it is not fullfilling , plus the sacrifice here is animal but nevertheless David is literrally stating that this sin cannot be undone or forgiven by sacrifice, I never said that blood (animal ) is never required however It is not required in most circumstances in which I have explained earlier in our discussion

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise


Here David clearly describes what kind of sacrifice needed to forgive him which is a true repentance from the heart and THAT IS MY POINT there is no need for god to sacrifice his son , David clearly states that all that is needed is a true repentence by the individual to god and regret for committing a sin

The rest of what you said about a sin requiring a penalty is contradicted by the what daivd said about a broken heart and spirit , it is just your own attempt to force your understanding on the reality of the text

And this is what is stated and taught in the OT :

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18 :21-22

These three examples in the OT of David , Jonah and Ezekiel clearly shows that god can forgive a sin if someone truly repents without the need of blood or so called penalty

[Burninglight]

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[SIZE=5]First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.

This statement is contradicted by what david said according to the bible:

[/FONT][/RIGHT]

16

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

David clearly here is saying that sacrifice for this sin to repent it is not fullfilling , plus the sacrifice here is animal but nevertheless David is literrally stating that this sin cannot be undone or forgiven by sacrifice, I never said that blood (animal ) is never required however It is not required in most circumstances in which I have explained earlier in our discussion

17

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise


Here David clearly describes what kind of sacrifice needed to forgive him which is a true repentance from the heart and THAT IS MY POINT there is no need for god to sacrifice his son , David clearly states that all that is needed is a true repentence by the individual to god and regret for committing a sin

The rest of what you said about a sin requiring a penalty is contradicted by the what daivd said about a broken heart and spirit , it is just your own attempt to force your understanding on the reality of the text

And this is what is stated and taught in the OT :

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18 :21-22

These three examples in the OT of David , Jonah and Ezekiel clearly shows that god can forgive a sin if someone truly repents without the need of blood or so called penalty

It is written that the just shall live by faith. David, Jonah and Ezekiel had a shadow of the promised salvation, because Jesus hadn't been born yet. That shadow was their faith and it was demonstrated by repentance and a contrite heart which is what the just do by faith. But when Jesus' ministry started and after His death and resurrection, the shadow would do no good, if we ignore the object of the shadow and type who is Jesus. Repentance is needed but can only be accomplished by faith in God's provision to us, and that is the gift of eternal life through His son. That is god's work to believe on Him whom He sent. Why do you think God would have Abraham sacrifice his son? It was to show that is what God was to do. Why do you think prophecy was given in Isaiah 53 that show Jesus taking our punishment. Repentance without Christ as your Savior will not profit anyone unless it was before Christ came into the world. Everyone reading this needs Jesus to be saved. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior. Jesus said what you always ignore: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I AM HE." He said, "No one comes to the father except by me." Your argument is not with us Christians it is with God and Jesus.

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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It is written that the just shall live by faith. David, Jonah and Ezekiel had a shadow of the promised salvation, because Jesus hadn't been born yet. That shadow was their faith and it was demonstrated by repentance and a contrite heart which is what the just do by faith. But when Jesus' ministry started and after His death and resurrection, the shadow would do no good, if we ignore the object of the shadow and type who is Jesus. Repentance is needed but can only be accomplished by faith in God's provision to us, and that is the gift of eternal life through His son. That is god's work to believe on Him whom He sent. Why do you think God would have Abraham sacrifice his son? It was to show that is what God was to do. Why do you think prophecy was given in Isaiah 53 that show Jesus taking our punishment. Repentance without Christ as your Savior will not profit anyone unless it was before Christ came into the world. Everyone reading this needs Jesus to be saved. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior. Jesus said what you always ignore: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I AM HE." He said, "No one comes to the father except by me." Your argument is not with us Christians it is with God and Jesus.

Peace

As for the shadow of sin , that does not show up in the OT and not in the NT . The new testament is clear about this when it comes to paul's writtings:

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.…

Romans 5: 12-13

No Shadow here rather literal sin

AS for Isaiah 53 I already answered it and proved it does not prophecise anything about the torture of jesus rather it was a manipulation by the writers of the King james bible by separating between Isaiah 52 and 53 to remove it from its context. I am not going to repost answers which I have already answered