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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
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~ And in their footsteps we sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the Law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law.
Surat-ul Maida (5):46 ~

Please explain this sura to me? Because it appears to me that here Jesus was sent confirming the law that had come before Him... That must have been the Torah since the Gospel ... As the recording of His Birth, mission, earthly death and resurrection... did not come into being until after His ascension to God. So was Jesus telling a lie here? If He was sent to confirm the Torah would He not have had the knowledge to realise it had been corrupted? Surely.. Jesus, who even the Quran regards as sinless would not deceive His followers by confirming something that was not truth.
This has nothing to do with deceit nor did Jesus lie. The case is that Jesus confirmed the Torah that was sent to Moses, I have no evidence that the Torah that was sent to Moses is the same as your Pentateuch. The case is that you project the Torah the Quran was talking about on your Pentateuch and assume that I also think so, which is not true.

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May one ask where is this real Torah sent to Moses and the real Gospel sent to Jesus?
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. For me the Quran and Sunna are enough as they are overwhelming the previous books and by examining the Bible you have, I find that it doesn't have a solid evidence that it is continuously connected to Jesus or previous prophets, besides I find many difficulties and evidence that manipulations occurred in it. So I can't rely on it when already I have a pure evidence from God.

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if this is to be taken as proof it seems rather ambiguous to say the least.. It does not say all Jews. It seems to refer to some scribes.. It does not directly claim that it was the Torah they were changing. It implies they were interpreting the laws of the Torah for their own gain.. This is not the same as changing the word of God or the whole Torah. In fact maybe this admonishment stems from the Bible itself because I believe the Prophet Isaiah warned the very same thing. I'm sure I mentioned this on another thread here.
Well, actually it's clear talking that the sources of the people of the book are not pure that's why we should neither deny them nor believe them. Besides, I am sure if you have seen the quotes of Islamic sources regarding the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in the Torah and Gospel, you'll see that many quotes they have are not related to the Bible, so either you believe them that these were the sources they had at their time or that you know that the Bible you have is not the one they knew.

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You are assuming that people of the book paid no heed to Gods orders, because you have to believe in this corruption stuff. Why do you see it so difficult for Jews and Christians to disregard Gods orders? Do you think we hold God in less esteem and respect than a Muslim does?
In all Jews, Christians and Muslims, there are many people who disobey God. But the difference is that in case of the Bible is that it was left to people's honesty other than the Quran where Allah promised that He will keep it as it is the final message from God.

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Neither do you... Which is also a good step.. Of sorts. ;)
Well, you are the one who is supposed to give evidence not me, suppose I brought you a book and said it refers to a prophet, but actually all the evidence you gave is much late, why shall I believe you? You are the one who believe that the Gospels refer to the disciples f Jesus, so you are the one who should support your belief by solid evidence for me to believe you.

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Such as? Examples?
Well, lets's see what some early church fathers said about Jewish corruption in the Old Testament:
The first example is Justin Martyr(an early church father who died at about 150 AD) says in his dialogue with Trypho, a Jew:
Chap. LXXII. — Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.
And I said, “I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: ‘And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and….. thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.’…… And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: ‘The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.’
So Justin Martyr here is explicitly accusing the Jews of corrupting the Old Testament by hiding some verses talking about salvation. But is it that easy that verses are removed from the Bible? Let’s see what John Chrysostom (church father who lived in the fourth century) says in his Homilies on Gospel Matthew when he came to the verse quoting the Old Testament” which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”:
And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles. For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up and cut to pieces. The latter fact Jeremiah relates; the former, he who composed the fourth book of Kings, saying, that after a long time the book of Deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much 56 more when the barbarians had overrun them. For as to the fact, that the prophet had foretold it, the apostles themselves in many places call Him a Nazarene. ”
So simply John Chrysostom is not just accusing the Jews of being negligent who are not caring for their books, but also of destroying their own books. If these are accusations made by Christians, who are supposed to share the Jews their belief in the Old Testament, how could Muslims trust the Jews and consider that they were really honest and followed God’s commandment to keep Hi s books, not to add or remove or replace?
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As we are all different, we all see things and interpret things differently? However, Christians of whatever denomination do not differ in the main. Except for maybe some more recent sects.. Like Mormons, J Ws etc. ;) how do you account for the different denominations within Islam? There is one Quran .. Yet not all muslims interpret it the same. Except for maybe the central message. So on this point... I don't see there's much of a point to answer. :)
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Well, Muslims don't have Holy Spirit or Jesus who guides them, but just interpret Islamic scriptures. As for Christianity, you have no excuse, either the holy Spirit guides you that immaculate conception or sola scriptura or any other diversity is ok so the other team is blaspheming on the Holy Spirit and rejecting the inspiration of Jesus. There should be no room for accpetable diversity among Christians as long as they believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and Jesus.