Is the bible today the true word of God?

[huria]

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Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy..
Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I

Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
I asked you where the original gone no answer
I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

How about answering my questions now??

So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

I am sure you will go off topic again !

[pandora]

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Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
I asked you where the original gone no answer
I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

How about answering my questions now??

So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

I am sure you will go off topic again !

Ok..my patience at an end.. Forget it Huria. You cannot play fair. You ridicule scripture, you make ridiculous claims with no evidence.. And when asked to bring proof that you say you have to hand then you will not do so. Three little questions I ask.. Just three. Yet you bombard me with a long list of points and demand I answer each and everyone. If I do answer you dismiss it out of hand.!!!! I thought we could have got somewhere and achieved some level of understanding through dialogue. I see now that is not your aim.

What on earth is the point you want to make.? If I say "oh you are right and the Bible has errors because men wrote the words" will you then answer by questions? NO.. I don't believe you will because you have nothing. No proof of your claims of Bible corruption because no proof exists except that which is born in your minds.

Get this.. It doesn't matter to a Christian what muslims think or believe about the Bible. Because it means nothing to you... Yet means everything to us. To you your Book to me mine..

I wish you well on your chosen path. Peace.

[pandora]

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Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

The Bible itself claims to be written under “Inspiration” from the Holy Spirit. God revealed Himself through Prophets to speak to a much larger audience.... Mankind. In the same way some one would pick up a pen as an instrument to achieve a goal.. The pen becomes the tool in the hand of the writer, the prophet is God’s pen in revelation. To illustrate ... if I wrote my name on a piece of paper with a pen... who wrote the name? Me or the pen?... The pen does not have the power to write on its own thus I am the force or spirit behind the pen..just as God is the Force or Spirit behind the Prophets. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God conveys understanding.

We've already established the Bible ( unlike the Quran) is a collection of books. As the prophets received revelation the books were collected in manuscript form. The original manuscript, written by the prophet is known as the autograph. The autograph is inspired by God from the first generation. The autograph is then copied to additional manuscripts. As the manuscripts wear out over time from use and environment.... the manuscript is again copied onto a new scroll. This process of copying the old manuscript to a new manuscript is known as manuscript transmission. Over a period of time the manuscripts from accepted prophets were collected. This collection of manuscripts is known to us as the Bible.... Which is what we have today.. Whatever you may think or believe to the contrary. You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask. But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

The Bible can only have been produced under divine inspiration.. Mankind could not have produced a coherent account of Creation.. Mankind's fall and Gods ultimate plan for our redemption to bring us back to where we were always meant to be with God the Father... Without the will of God... Without the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His Word Jesus... That's what we have in the Bible. There are no contradictions in the Word of God that effect the central theme of His message.

BTW... God decides everything.

Peace.

[M.Khaled]

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You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask.

Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

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But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

[pandora]

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Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask. I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted.. There by leaving us without correct guidance. Why would a Holy God do this? As a test?? That is even more illogical.. Seeing as God is omniscient God would know the outcome thus rendering the test obsolete before it started.. You are right, this is not about Bible canon.. So leave that for another time. Yet you continue to miss the point that Gods message cannot be changed. The onus is rather on yourselves to prove these claims you make against the Bible since I have the utmost faith that the core message the Bible contains is unaltered in essence from its conception and for all eternity.
Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

http://www.normgeisler.com/articles/...0Testament.pdf

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Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
Ps. 111:7-8 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
Is. 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Ps. 117:2 "... the truth of the Lord endureth for ever. Praise ye the Lord."
Ps. 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."
Ps 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

We also have the Living Word of God Jesus who said..

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

Peace.

am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

[M.Khaled]

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And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask.

Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.

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I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted..

Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.

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Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.

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I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.

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I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.

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am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.

[pandora]

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Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.

But really you should be concerned... Because if what you say is true it implies that God cannot be trusted to protect His message from change. That may be an acceptable scenario for you but it is not so for me. I refuses to see God that way. What are these changes you speak of? Before or after Mohammed? Because if you believe these changes occurred before Mohammed then we have the issue of The Quran claiming to confirm the scriptures.. I believe the sura states.. " in your hands".. This implies that it was confirming what was there and present in the hands of the Jews and Christians. So does Allah confirm something he knows to be corrupt? Would Mohammed tell the Jews and Christians to judge by "their" books if they were known to be corrupt? The manuscript evidence and the Bible canon we have now was set before Mohammed and the Quran.. So we know the Bible then as now is pretty much the same, and certainly in regards to the core message.. There is no change to that. So on that basis we know that it can't have been corrupted after the Quran as we could easily check when and even pinpoint where and what was changed.
Are these "changes" you speak of textual variants or errors in regards to spelling or translation issues?
I truly do not believe your Prophet Mohammed ever believed the Bible to be corrupt, he respected the scriptures. This leads me to suppose the idea of the corruption came much later long after Mohammed's death.. When Muslim scholars came to realise the the message in the Quran is for the most part diametrically opposed to that of the Bible.. Is it possible for them both to be the word of God? So obviously in order for the Quran to be right the Bible must be wrong.. This has plunged muslims into a life long quest to disprove the Bible... Sometimes coming up with the unlikeliness of scenarios. Hey.. I realise this may be pushing the boundary here and truly I mean know disrespect.. But unless one pushes boundaries in search of truth.. Then one sometimes ends up settling for something less than one should. I don't know about Islam per se but Christianity encourages us to always seek the truth.. Always question...

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Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.

Here again applying human standards to a Holy God. Of course God is quite capable of protecting His people from persecution and murder... Weather it would be right and just for God to do such a thing is a different matter. By saying God is not able to protect His word from His creation is an affront to God..
This life is a test?? A test for what? What reason for the test if the examiner already knows the outcome?

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So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.

Maybe not.. But it doesn't prove your position either does it... ;)

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So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.

Is adding or omitting the same as changing the message to and extent that it becomes completely different in meaning? Would God allow that? Just to be clear Christians have never made the claim that the Bible is word of God verbatim as you claim for the Quran. The Bible contains historical accounts, poetry etc. though inspired by God men penned the words.. But I feel we have been down this road already so will leave it there. I guess I find it easy to put my trust in God.. :)

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And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.

Yes, that is our first point of reference. Yet, when one accepts Jesus as their saviour and opens ones heart to Him the understanding of what Jesus meant by His mission it is truly inspiring.

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Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.

your thoughts are very welcome.. And I am pleased to hear them. It's a shame Huria seems to have given up. :( I accept my wordiness may irritate some people.. But I am as the good Lord made me.. :)

peace

[M.Khaled]

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What are these changes you speak of? Before or after Mohammed? Because if you believe these changes occurred before Mohammed then we have the issue of The Quran claiming to confirm the scriptures.. I believe the sura states.. " in your hands".. This implies that it was confirming what was there and present in the hands of the Jews and Christians. So does Allah confirm something he knows to be corrupt? Would Mohammed tell the Jews and Christians to judge by "their" books if they were known to be corrupt? The manuscript evidence and the Bible canon we have now was set before Mohammed and the Quran.. So we know the Bible then as now is pretty much the same, and certainly in regards to the core message.. There is no change to that. So on that basis we know that it can't have been corrupted after the Quran as we could easily check when and even pinpoint where and what was changed.

This is a common misconception that Islam acknowledges the Bible the same way you acknowledge it, which is not true. First of all, the misconception is in the definition in the word corruption, you think that I am saying the Bible as a whole is false, which is not true. Our Muslim belief in the Bible is that God sent the Torah to Moses(Peace be upon him), and the Gospel to Jesus (Peace be upon him), but this doesn’t mean that the Pentateuch or the four Gospels present now are the real Torah and Gospel sent to Moses and Jesus (Peace be upon them). The case is that the Torah and Gospel and other prophets’ books have been subjected to a lot of corruption and interpolations that the true verses are mixed with the false ones, that’s why God sent the Quran to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who is the final prophet, where it was saved from corruption as it is the final book, and contains the absolute truth. So we consider the Quran as a judge on the Bible, we accept the Bible verses which agree with the Quran, and reject the Bible verses which disagree with the Quran, as for the verses the Quran didn’t talk about, we neither agree nor disagree.God said in the Quran in the context of talking about Jews:
79. Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, `This is from ALLAH,’ That they may take it for a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.( Holy Quran 2:79)
Ibn Abbas, the Prophet’s disciple said:
“O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur’an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,’ so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn’t the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.”
And Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him) said in Bukhari:
Do not believe the People of the Book and do not deny them. Say: “We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you. Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have submitted.”
And said in Abu Dawood:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Whatever the people of the Book tell you, do not verify them, nor falsify them, but say: We believe in Allah and His Apostle. If it is false, do not confirm it, and if it is right, do not falsify it.
Also there was another Hadith in Bukhari that that Humayd bin `Abdur-Rahman heard Mu`awiyah talking to a group of Quraysh in Al-Madinah. He mentioned Ka`b Al-Ahbar, and said: “He was one of the most truthful of those who narrated from the People of the Book, even though we found that some of what he said might be lies.’
This means that Ka’b didn’t intend to lie, but he was telling what was interpolated by the People of the book.
The verses you are quoting that the Jews and Christians to judge by "their" books were in a certain context like stoning the adulterer and foretelling about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), but there is no full endorsement of the Quran to the Bible you have now but actually the Quran tells that it's a judge over the previous books.

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Here again applying human standards to a Holy God. Of course God is quite capable of protecting His people from persecution and murder... Weather it would be right and just for God to do such a thing is a different matter. By saying God is not able to protect His word from His creation is an affront to God..
This life is a test?? A test for what? What reason for the test if the examiner already knows the outcome?

I am not sure where I said that God is not able to protect His word, all what I am saying is that God ordered the people of the book to keep His words neither add nor diminish as He ordered them nor to murder or steal, if they murdered or stole, that doesn't mean that God cannot protect His people, same as keeping God's words. If they didn't keep it, this doesn't mean that God cannot protect His word. God tests us on our deeds to see who shall obey Him and who shall not. I am not sure what's unclear in that.

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Maybe not.. But it doesn't prove your position either does it... ;)

So at least we can agree that you don't have an evidence to prove that no change occurred in the Bible during these 150 years, which I see a good step. ;)

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Is adding or omitting the same as changing the message to and extent that it becomes completely different in meaning? Would God allow that? Just to be clear Christians have never made the claim that the Bible is word of God verbatim as you claim for the Quran. The Bible contains historical accounts, poetry etc. though inspired by God men penned the words.. But I feel we have been down this road already so will leave it there. I guess I find it easy to put my trust in God.. :)

Well, I am not talking here about superficial changes, I am talking about major changes.

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Yes, that is our first point of reference. Yet, when one accepts Jesus as their saviour and opens ones heart to Him the understanding of what Jesus meant by His mission it is truly inspiring.

Well, if each one claims he is inspired by Jesus or the Holy Spirit, then it is supposed that there should be no diversity among Christians, should there be?