Is the bible today the true word of God?

[pandora]

Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy.. :) given my nature and all.

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What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20

Firstly what is important with any Book from the Bible is to understand the context of time and historical place it was set and who was the target audience. You may not see this need as the Quran is just one work maybe context does not play such a big part. After all it's creation only spans about 22 years I understand whereas the Bible spans over 2000 years... The Jewish scriptures even longer. That out of the way onto Ezekiel.

Ezekiel is a fairly long book of 48 chapters, however does have a logical, orderly structure that makes it easy to analyze and understand. It falls naturally into three main divisions... Which are (1) judgment on the nation of Judah (verses 4-24) which is where the verse that causes you such concerns stands (2) judgment on the surrounding nations (verses 25-32).. and (3) the future blessing of GOD's Covenant People (verses 33-48).


Ezekiel was a priest who lived among the other citizens of the nation of Judah as a captive of Babylon during the years of the Captivity. His revelation came from God through visions which are described at the start of the book. he continued to receive these visions throughout his lifetime. His message was proclaimed to Gods covenant people and also the Gentile nations that surrounded the land of Israel.


Its the first section of the book... Bit which you quote..that has Ezekiel describing GOD's judgment on the nation of Judah because of its rampant idolatry. It is written in the form of a parable, I am not sure if you have parables as a form of prophecy in the Quran, but in the Bible they are often used by many of the prophets and also Jesus.. I think it encourages the reader to see the deeper meaning behind words.. As words can sometimes be taken to mean something different to which they wish to convey... And the message is always more important than the just the words.

The parable refers to the “whorish” behaviour of a pair of women as a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites from two nations... “Oholah which is Samaria, and Oholibah which is Jerusalem.” We take it that what the biblical interpretation tells us is that the message of Ezekiel 23 is a warning to the nations of Earth to not be godless in our actions toward other nations, or God will give permission for the other nations to kill the former. You may see the language as quite strong, but what you fail to see the world at that time was a harsh place and idolatry was rife. Sometimes harsh times demand harsh language and harsh actions if goodness is to prevail. You as a Muslim must understand that the main command from God is that He is the One God and only He is worthy of worship. People of the Old Testament understood Gods righteous wrath, yet many times they were so weak they slipped back to the sin of idolatry. You think God should ignore this?


The next part of the book (verses 25-32) proclaims GOD's judgment against the Gentile nations surrounding the land of Israel. Included are judgments against Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.


The final section of the book (verses 33-48) speaks of the future restoration of the people of Israel. GOD promised that His Covenant People would be restored to their homeland after their period of exile in Babylon. (Verses 40-48) describe the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the renewal of sacrifices and authentic worship. These chapters are similar in tone and content to the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation. Ezekiel ends by pointing forward to the glorious kingdom of Jesus the Messiah...

I'll quickly address Ezekiel 4:12 seeing as it's from the same book..and I'm feeling kind... ;) this was written near the start when the people were living in captivity under harsh conditions.. When it states ..Thou shalt bake it with dung ... . Dried ox and cow dung was a common fuel and with this, for the lack of wood and coals, they were obliged to prepare their food. Indeed, dried excrement of every kind is gathered. When we see the prophet is to prepare his bread with dry human excrement...Btw .. we know that this did not come in contact with the bread, and was only used to warm the plate, on which the bread was laid over the fire, understanding it was common practice at THAT time and under THOSE circumstances.. It does not seem quite that horrific. Yet it goes to show the extreme degree of wretchedness to which they were exposed.. for, not being able to leave the city to collect the dried excrements of beasts, the inhabitants during the siege would be obliged, literally, to use dried human dung for fuel. However, if we read further we find that the prophet was relieved from using this kind of fuel, for cow's dung was substituted at his request.

Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I am never offended by anything you may quote from the Bible. I would only ever be offended if I thought you were deliberately being disrespectful towards what I see as Gods message. Even then I would forgive you. :)

[huria]

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Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy..
Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I

Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
I asked you where the original gone no answer
I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

How about answering my questions now??

So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

I am sure you will go off topic again !

[pandora]

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Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answer
I asked you where the original gone no answer
I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??

Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor

How about answering my questions now??

So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

I am sure you will go off topic again !

Ok..my patience at an end.. Forget it Huria. You cannot play fair. You ridicule scripture, you make ridiculous claims with no evidence.. And when asked to bring proof that you say you have to hand then you will not do so. Three little questions I ask.. Just three. Yet you bombard me with a long list of points and demand I answer each and everyone. If I do answer you dismiss it out of hand.!!!! I thought we could have got somewhere and achieved some level of understanding through dialogue. I see now that is not your aim.

What on earth is the point you want to make.? If I say "oh you are right and the Bible has errors because men wrote the words" will you then answer by questions? NO.. I don't believe you will because you have nothing. No proof of your claims of Bible corruption because no proof exists except that which is born in your minds.

Get this.. It doesn't matter to a Christian what muslims think or believe about the Bible. Because it means nothing to you... Yet means everything to us. To you your Book to me mine..

I wish you well on your chosen path. Peace.

[pandora]

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Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

The Bible itself claims to be written under “Inspiration” from the Holy Spirit. God revealed Himself through Prophets to speak to a much larger audience.... Mankind. In the same way some one would pick up a pen as an instrument to achieve a goal.. The pen becomes the tool in the hand of the writer, the prophet is God’s pen in revelation. To illustrate ... if I wrote my name on a piece of paper with a pen... who wrote the name? Me or the pen?... The pen does not have the power to write on its own thus I am the force or spirit behind the pen..just as God is the Force or Spirit behind the Prophets. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God conveys understanding.

We've already established the Bible ( unlike the Quran) is a collection of books. As the prophets received revelation the books were collected in manuscript form. The original manuscript, written by the prophet is known as the autograph. The autograph is inspired by God from the first generation. The autograph is then copied to additional manuscripts. As the manuscripts wear out over time from use and environment.... the manuscript is again copied onto a new scroll. This process of copying the old manuscript to a new manuscript is known as manuscript transmission. Over a period of time the manuscripts from accepted prophets were collected. This collection of manuscripts is known to us as the Bible.... Which is what we have today.. Whatever you may think or believe to the contrary. You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask. But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

The Bible can only have been produced under divine inspiration.. Mankind could not have produced a coherent account of Creation.. Mankind's fall and Gods ultimate plan for our redemption to bring us back to where we were always meant to be with God the Father... Without the will of God... Without the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His Word Jesus... That's what we have in the Bible. There are no contradictions in the Word of God that effect the central theme of His message.

BTW... God decides everything.

Peace.

[M.Khaled]

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You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask.

Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

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But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

[pandora]

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Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask. I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted.. There by leaving us without correct guidance. Why would a Holy God do this? As a test?? That is even more illogical.. Seeing as God is omniscient God would know the outcome thus rendering the test obsolete before it started.. You are right, this is not about Bible canon.. So leave that for another time. Yet you continue to miss the point that Gods message cannot be changed. The onus is rather on yourselves to prove these claims you make against the Bible since I have the utmost faith that the core message the Bible contains is unaltered in essence from its conception and for all eternity.
Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

http://www.normgeisler.com/articles/...0Testament.pdf

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Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
Ps. 111:7-8 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
Is. 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Ps. 117:2 "... the truth of the Lord endureth for ever. Praise ye the Lord."
Ps. 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."
Ps 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

We also have the Living Word of God Jesus who said..

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

Peace.

am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

[M.Khaled]

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And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask.

Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.

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I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted..

Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.

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Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.

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I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.

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I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.

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am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.

[pandora]

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Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.

But really you should be concerned... Because if what you say is true it implies that God cannot be trusted to protect His message from change. That may be an acceptable scenario for you but it is not so for me. I refuses to see God that way. What are these changes you speak of? Before or after Mohammed? Because if you believe these changes occurred before Mohammed then we have the issue of The Quran claiming to confirm the scriptures.. I believe the sura states.. " in your hands".. This implies that it was confirming what was there and present in the hands of the Jews and Christians. So does Allah confirm something he knows to be corrupt? Would Mohammed tell the Jews and Christians to judge by "their" books if they were known to be corrupt? The manuscript evidence and the Bible canon we have now was set before Mohammed and the Quran.. So we know the Bible then as now is pretty much the same, and certainly in regards to the core message.. There is no change to that. So on that basis we know that it can't have been corrupted after the Quran as we could easily check when and even pinpoint where and what was changed.
Are these "changes" you speak of textual variants or errors in regards to spelling or translation issues?
I truly do not believe your Prophet Mohammed ever believed the Bible to be corrupt, he respected the scriptures. This leads me to suppose the idea of the corruption came much later long after Mohammed's death.. When Muslim scholars came to realise the the message in the Quran is for the most part diametrically opposed to that of the Bible.. Is it possible for them both to be the word of God? So obviously in order for the Quran to be right the Bible must be wrong.. This has plunged muslims into a life long quest to disprove the Bible... Sometimes coming up with the unlikeliness of scenarios. Hey.. I realise this may be pushing the boundary here and truly I mean know disrespect.. But unless one pushes boundaries in search of truth.. Then one sometimes ends up settling for something less than one should. I don't know about Islam per se but Christianity encourages us to always seek the truth.. Always question...

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Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.

Here again applying human standards to a Holy God. Of course God is quite capable of protecting His people from persecution and murder... Weather it would be right and just for God to do such a thing is a different matter. By saying God is not able to protect His word from His creation is an affront to God..
This life is a test?? A test for what? What reason for the test if the examiner already knows the outcome?

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So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.

Maybe not.. But it doesn't prove your position either does it... ;)

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So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.

Is adding or omitting the same as changing the message to and extent that it becomes completely different in meaning? Would God allow that? Just to be clear Christians have never made the claim that the Bible is word of God verbatim as you claim for the Quran. The Bible contains historical accounts, poetry etc. though inspired by God men penned the words.. But I feel we have been down this road already so will leave it there. I guess I find it easy to put my trust in God.. :)

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And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.

Yes, that is our first point of reference. Yet, when one accepts Jesus as their saviour and opens ones heart to Him the understanding of what Jesus meant by His mission it is truly inspiring.

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Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.

your thoughts are very welcome.. And I am pleased to hear them. It's a shame Huria seems to have given up. :( I accept my wordiness may irritate some people.. But I am as the good Lord made me.. :)

peace