Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your answers. I have many comments on them but I think that we have opened many issues and topics in general.What about if we discuss each individual issue to make the discussion so useful and fruitful for both of us. Of course, you have all right to agree or disagree with all my appreciation and respect.Also you have all right to continue or not continue at any time.I suggest that we start with the issue of the Godhood of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Many years ago, I visited two monasteries in the desert.The Monk gave us a lecture to know the Christian faith.He said directly and explicitly "And we Christian believe that Jesus is our God". In fact, it was a big shock to hear that "so I began to study the Bible.
-- By the way.There is only one version of the Holy Quran in Arabic for more than 1400 years since the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him). You should know that the Holy Quran descended on Muhammad through "Jibril" the angle of Allah throughout 23 years.Some companions of the messengers memorized The Holy Quran by heart.The Holy Quran was written in pottery or some bones or some of skins of animals and was reviewed by Jibril and Muhammad once a year .In the year that the messenger died Jibril reviewed the Quran with him two times.Osman (May Allah be pleased with him ) collected all the Holy Quran in one book . He united the Umma of Islam on one book .On one writing what is called " Osmany drawing " so the Holy Quran is one in every part in that world. .Yes, the Holy Quran was translated into many languages . We Muslims do not call them " the translation of the Holy Quran " because there are differences in translations" but we call them " the translation of the meaning of the Holy Quran" to be more accurately.Thank you and peace on you .

[pandora]

Quote

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your answers. I have many comments on them but I think that we have opened many issues and topics in general.What about if we discuss each individual issue to make the discussion so useful and fruitful for both of us. Of course, you have all right to agree or disagree with all my appreciation and respect.Also you have all right to continue or not continue at any time.I suggest that we start with the issue of the Godhood of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Many years ago, I visited two monasteries in the desert.The Monk gave us a lecture to know the Christian faith.He said directly and explicitly "And we Christian believe that Jesus is our God". In fact, it was a big shock to hear that "so I began to study the Bible.

As you please, I am always agreeable to respectful dialogue with the aim for better mutual understanding. I wish for you to understand that I am not here to win hearts and minds to Christianity.. :) I would not wish to waste my time, as I believe we are all guided by Gods Spirit alone and it is not our place to enforce our beliefs upon others. People followed Jesus by choice He never put people under obligation trusting only in God, I endeavour to follow in His gracious footsteps. I only wish to clarify a Christians belief in their scriptures, as I see many muslims believe many different things about the Christian faith which are not true. I do not see where such views of Christianity that muslims hold today stem from... I do not believe your prophet Mohammed thought thus... And these misconceptions have developed over centuries put forth by misinformed muslims with maybe an agenda of their own.. Who knows it may be a possibility.

I can can understand it would have been a great shock for you to be told so bluntly that we see Jesus as God, I would have hoped the monks would have taken the time to explain why this is so, if they did, then maybe they did not do so as well as they could have or it could just be that it is a concept that a muslim is just not equipped to deal with.. I can appreciate that as it goes against all you have ever been told and is contrary to Islam. I commend you for your study of the Bible, yet without spiritual guidance I feel it a difficult task to come to full understanding as you already must see it from another perspective and it will be impossible for you to not compare it with your accepted truth.. The Quran. I say this because it is what I find personally when reading the Quran... Much does not make sense to me and I find it difficult to see it as a final revelation after the Bible because on so many issues it appears to me to be diametrically opposed to what I know from the Bible. This is a daunting task to make sense for each I feel and that's why I see interfaith dialogue as important to find a common ground where we can exist in friendship.

I will endeavour to answer your queries on the Godhead or divinity of Christ to the best of my ability and understanding. Maybe you would like to start a thread accordingly.

Peace upon you.

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear Pandora,
1- In the name of Allah the Beneficent and Merciful.I hope that we discuss the matters with all friendliness, respect , candor and clarity.Without any hatred or any arrogance or any despising because we are all the children of Adam and Eve.We always forget that we are all brothers and sisters.The Almighty Allah (praise be to him) created us and made us nations and tribes to know each other.To spread peace among ourselves . This is an appeal declared in the Qur'an. Allah says in the Holy Quran :-
"O mankind! we created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and Tribes, that ye may know Each other (Not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the Most honoured of you In the sight of Allah is (He who is) the Most righteous of you. and Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49/13)
-- This declaration is for all mankind all over the world. The most honoured people in the sight of Allah not the most beautiful or the most interesting or the most wealthy or the strongest no but the most righteous ,pure pious and devout.Allah does not look at our images or shapes but He (pbth) look at our hearts.The righteous people always have pure hearts.They always fear Allah and love all his creatures.
2- Allah (pbth) taught us how to treat with each other and how to spread peace and love with each other . Allah says in the Holy Quran :- " O ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to Each other, nor call Each other by (offensive) nicknames: . seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after He has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 12. O ye who believe! avoid suspicion As much (as possible): for suspicion In some cases is a sin: and spy not on Each other behind their backs. would any of you like to eat the flesh of His dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.(49/11-12)
--- These are some principles that Allah (pbth) taught us .If I do well that is by the grace of Allah and his support.And if I do bad that is by my ignorance and the support of the accursed Satan. Oh my God. Shield us from the evils of ourselves and our bad deeds.
3- As you see Jesus (peace be upon him) as God or a son of God. Please ,Trust me this is a serious saying. Excuse me this is the eye of blasphemy and infidelity .This saying is the biggest insult to the Almighty God .It will never make Jesus (pbuh) happy,on the contrary it makes him very sad and very afraid to the state of his followers that overestimated and exaggerated in his love that they make him God. All evidences in the Bible deny the divinty of Jesus.Please refer to my article under the title " God is one in the Torah,in the Bible and in the Quran.Also track all the sayings of Jesus himself that ends with the phrase " who sent me " .In these sayings he confirmed that he is a messenger of Allah .Allah sent him to guide people to know and worship the only true God of that universe.Please tell me one only verse in the Bible that Jesus said "I am God worship me"
4- I will tell you the opinion of The Holy Quran (the last revelation in that world ) about the phrase "son of God" (and of course you are free to believe or not believe .To read them or not.To say I am not intrested or not)
68. They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son!" - glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things In the heavens and on earth! no warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
69. Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
70. A Little enjoyment In This world!- and then, to us will be their return, then shall we make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.(10/68-70)

88. They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing Most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down In utter ruin,
91. That They should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings In the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most gracious As a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment. (19/88-95)
26. And They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten offspring." glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.
27. They speak not before He speaks, and They act (in all things) by His command.
28. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and They offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and They stand In awe and reverence of His (Glory).
29. If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one we should reward with Hell: Thus do we reward those who do wrong. (21/26-29)

to be continued

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

5- Also I will tell you what the Holy Quran said about trinity and the saying " Jesus is God". The Almighty Allah (pbth) confirms that Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet as all prophets that Allah sent to mankind to guide them to way of Allah.Allah said in the Holy Quran :-


A) - 171. O people of the Book! Commit no excesses In your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the Truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe In Allah and His apostles. say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. glory be to him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. to Him belong all things In the heavens and on earth. and Enough is Allah As a disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah.: those who Disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).(4/171-172)

B) -- 77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not In your Religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong In times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Even way.(5/77)

C) -- 75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before Him. His mother was a woman of Truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. see How Allah doth make His Signs Clear to them; yet see In what ways They are deluded away from the truth!
76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? but Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."(5/75-76)
--- Jesus was a messenger and his mother was pure and righteous.They were eating food and that means that they were humans.Jesus is not God because God never eat or drink or sleep or die and so on.

D) -- 17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, His mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? for to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. for Allah hath power over all things."(5/17)
--- The saying " Jesus is god " is the eye of blasphemy . There in no God but God.He is the only true God of that universe.

E) --72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." but said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, My Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid Him the garden, and the Fire will be His abode. there will for the wrong-doers be no one to help (5/72)
--- Jesus said in the Bible " my God and your God. He invited his followers to know and worship the only true God who sent him to people.


F) --73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three In a Trinity: for there is no god except one Allah. if They desist not from their word (of blasphemy), Verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
74. Why turn They not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful. (5/73-74)

--- Allah (pbth) told us that the following dialouge will be happen between the Almighty Allah and Jesus (pbuh) in the day of resurrection.Allah (pbth) will ask Jesus if he told his followers that he is a god and his mother (and Allah knows everything but He wants his followers to hear Jesus' answers).In that day every messenger will be the witness of his people . And we all will stand in front of the Almighty Allah alone .Allah says in the Holy Quran :-

G)--116. And Behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst Thou say unto men, worship me and My mother As gods In derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou Knowest what is In My heart, Thou I know not what is In Thine. for Thou Knowest In full all that is hidden.
117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou Didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, My Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou Didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. "If Thou dost punish them, They are Thy servant: if Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted In power, the Wise."
119. Allah will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them, and They with Allah. that is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). (5/116-119)

[pandora]

Quote

Dear Pandora,
1- In the name of Allah the Beneficent and Merciful.I hope that we discuss the matters with all friendliness, respect , candor and clarity.Without any hatred or any arrogance or any despising because we are all the children of Adam and Eve.We always forget that we are all brothers and sisters.The Almighty Allah (praise be to him) created us and made us nations and tribes to know each other.To spread peace among ourselves . This is an appeal declared in the Qur'an. Allah says in the Holy Quran :-
"O mankind! we created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and Tribes, that ye may know Each other (Not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the Most honoured of you In the sight of Allah is (He who is) the Most righteous of you. and Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49/13)
-- This declaration is for all mankind all over the world. The most honoured people in the sight of Allah not the most beautiful or the most interesting or the most wealthy or the strongest no but the most righteous ,pure pious and devout.Allah does not look at our images or shapes but He (pbth) look at our hearts.The righteous people always have pure hearts.They always fear Allah and love all his creatures.
2- Allah (pbth) taught us how to treat with each other and how to spread peace and love with each other . Allah says in the Holy Quran :- " O ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to Each other, nor call Each other by (offensive) nicknames: . seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after He has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 12. O ye who believe! avoid suspicion As much (as possible): for suspicion In some cases is a sin: and spy not on Each other behind their backs. would any of you like to eat the flesh of His dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.(49/11-12)
--- These are some principles that Allah (pbth) taught us .If I do well that is by the grace of Allah and his support.And if I do bad that is by my ignorance and the support of the accursed Satan. Oh my God. Shield us from the evils of ourselves and our bad deeds.
3- As you see Jesus (peace be upon him) as God or a son of God. Please ,Trust me this is a serious saying. Excuse me this is the eye of blasphemy and infidelity .This saying is the biggest insult to the Almighty God .It will never make Jesus (pbuh) happy,on the contrary it makes him very sad and very afraid to the state of his followers that overestimated and exaggerated in his love that they make him God. All evidences in the Bible deny the divinty of Jesus.Please refer to my article under the title " God is one in the Torah,in the Bible and in the Quran.Also track all the sayings of Jesus himself that ends with the phrase " who sent me " .In these sayings he confirmed that he is a messenger of Allah .Allah sent him to guide people to know and worship the only true God of that universe.Please tell me one only verse in the Bible that Jesus said "I am God worship me"
4- I will tell you the opinion of The Holy Quran (the last revelation in that world ) about the phrase "son of God" (and of course you are free to believe or not believe .To read them or not.To say I am not intrested or not)
68. They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son!" - glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things In the heavens and on earth! no warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
69. Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
70. A Little enjoyment In This world!- and then, to us will be their return, then shall we make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.(10/68-70)

88. They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing Most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down In utter ruin,
91. That They should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings In the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most gracious As a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment. (19/88-95)
26. And They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten offspring." glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.
27. They speak not before He speaks, and They act (in all things) by His command.
28. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and They offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and They stand In awe and reverence of His (Glory).
29. If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one we should reward with Hell: Thus do we reward those who do wrong. (21/26-29)

to be continued

Dear friend, you have given so much information here I'm not sure what it is you wish me to address. Or indeed if you are even interested in my point of view as to why a Christian believes as we do, it seems like muslims feel Christians have arrived by chance at an understanding of Gods message and we sort of make it up as we will.... This is not so. God placed us where God wants us to be, God gave us His truth through His Word.. Christ Jesus. We need to be clear about that. It appears to me that it is your intention to attempt to prove this Word God gave us is false, or even more incredible has been changed. On the first point I question... Why would God give us His Word which was not true to His divine being? On the second point I would ask... Why would God allow low men to change His Word? Either scenario I have difficulty ascribing to a Holy God, and my view is God is indeed Holy above all.

On your point of Gods declaration in regards to mankind... We can concur agreement here. As the Bible says the exact same thing. Christians may take it further in believing that the physical body is not as important to God than our soul, after all our body is purely a vehicle for our soul until such time as it returns to God. This body is a great gift, so of course we should be duty bound to keep ourselves fit and healthy so we are able to serve God in the best way. Maybe that is why we have less regulation in such matters as dress etc. for we do not see what clothes we wear have any baring on the state of our soul.

In regards to Jesus and His divinity, your answers are of course from your own Islamic perspective... Only natural.. And obviously.. Again only natural.. I do not see how they apply. As it seems clear from your quotes from the Quran, Christians have never viewed the son ship of Jesus in the way the Quran describes, which in itself is odd... If God was referring to Christians, then God as omniscient would know the hearts truth of what we believe.

Christians believe as the Bible and Jesus Himself through His words and actions taught.. Jesus Christ is the Son of God become human. By Son.. We do NOT mean biological son as we apply to human relationships and all that entails. Such belief is blasphemy of the worst kind. Jesus is truly a human being, our brother. He was born to a human mother, grew up and matured, learnt a trade, suffered hunger and thirst, displayed joy and compassion, anxiety and anger. He was a human being with body and soul – truly one of us, close to us. We see Jesus as same in essence as God the father... Jesus taught that His relationship was different with God the father as our relationship was with God. By Gods action through His Word Jesus, we the whole of humanity is healed by His love for us.

The Incarnation and the divinity of Jesus are a central theme in the Christian faith. For Christians, the doctrine of the Incarnation does not mean the deification of a man. Rather, in the Incarnation the eternal Word of God takes on a human nature and so becomes a human being. The expression Son of God serves as a pointer to the divine origin of Jesus and to the fact that in Jesus God has made himself present to humanity in a unique way. It is not a biological statement, such as would make of God a parent in the ordinary human sense. The church has always maintained that God neither begets nor is begotten... This corresponds to Quran which also says the same... Although I'm not sure that the context of this verse in the Quran refers to Christians and their beliefs.. It could refer to Meccan polytheism, which did attribute biological procreation to God, and seeing as Mohammed's message was aimed at the Meccan's initially it seems reasonable to suppose it was meant at them.


It remains central for Christian faith that the Son of God is one of us, with all that that entails, sin excepted. Jesus is therefore both divine and human in one person. You as a Muslim will never be able to accept this and I see even this must be difficult for you to read, yet, sometimes one has to face difficult things and even though you are unable totally to accept this, you should at least be able to see that to a Christian it makes perfect sense.. Because Gods Spirit assures us so. In truth Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that is fully human, with a human soul and a human will, so that through his obedient humanity he could redeem our humanity, and yet also fully God, of one substance with the Father. Divinity and humanity are united in essence and purpose. This in no way detracts from the greatness of God, or the Oneness of God. The Bible and Jesus are also clear on the Oneness of God the Father, and indeed there is nothing comparable to Him.

In regards to Weather Jesus making or not making the claim "I am God worship me" is largely irrelevant. No where in the Bible does Jesus say these exact words, yet no where in the Bible does Jesus say he is not God and do not worship me. Sometimes words are not as strong as actions, there are many instances where Jesus accepted worship, and acted with authority in matters where it was accepted that such authority belonged to God alone.

My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed. How the Quran represents the opinions of Christian belief at worse is in error at best it could only apply to a few gnostic sects found in that part of the world at that time. I cannot understand this. If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing. I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam. I feel I have to be honest here, and to be honest sometimes one has to be blunt.

Peace and blessings to you.

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your message . I will start where you have ended. You said:" I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam." .Please, No apology. We have agreed to speak frankly and clearly and without any sensitivity or any critical
1- You said : " My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed" and you think that "If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing."
--- The matter is not as you think. Allah (pbth) desended The Torah and The Bible to guide people to the true faith and worship the only true God who created me and you all that world . But the followers of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon both of them) did not keep these revelations well . As a result there is no original revelation of these Holy Books now and some humans (excuse me ) messed with these books, they added to and deleted from them according to their fancy ( there is an evidence from the Quran ).So The Almighty Allah descended the Holy Quran and pledged to save it till the day of resurrection.Allah said in the Quran :- " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and we will Assuredly guard it (from corruption).(15/9). So there is only one book all over the world. Muslims all over the world are uttering the Quran as it was descended on the messenger of Allah. The Holy Quran came down to correct the errors that have occurred due to human deeds.
---- For an example only to what I wrote :
** In the Old Testament Exo 20/11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". This is the wrong image of Allah the creator of that universe.Allah says : "There is nothing whatever like unto him, and He is the one that hears and sees (All things)".(42/11) and there is a verse like that completely in the Bible. Allah never feel tired that He (pbth) take a rest . That is an insult to The Almighty Allah .So Allah said in the Holy Quran :- "38. We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us.(50/38) .I ask you which of the two verses befitting the dignity and the sanctity and greatness of the Almighty God ? Also the image of most prophets is very bad .Does Allah chose fornicator prophets in order to call people to virtue .The image of David (peace be upon him) in the Torah is a shameful image but in the Quran David is a pure ,rightouse and obedient prophet.All prophets and messengers of Allah are the stars of that universe.They are models for us to be followed (peace be upon them all )
** In the Bible John 1(5/7-8) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
-- Priests used to use these verses to prove "trinity". Now the phrase " three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:' was deleted from all translated versions all over the world and it is found only in all Arabic versions and in King James version. Peace and blessing to you and to all our brothers and sisters all over that vast world and may Allah (God) guide us all to the right way.Ameen,Ameen.


To be continued

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

--- If they ( the father,the word and the Holy Ghost ) were deleted from the Bible because they were not found in the oldest manuscript.That means that someones added them to the Bible purposely to market for' trinity" or to show the legitimacy of trinity .I think there is no other justification for that according to my minor thought.Perhaps your point of view is smarter than mine.
--- The current versions says :
New international reader's version7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree

New international version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

New revised Standard version
7 There are three that testify:[b] 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

New American Standard Version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [k]in agreement

2- You always say " God placed us where God wants us to be, " . This saying is not true .It is called in language " The justification with fate and destiny". The theif can say that phrase to justify the theft "God placed me where he wants me to be" " If he wanted me to be honest he would do that"Then he is a theif accoding to the will of God ( God forbid) Also the atheist and the polytheist or the infidel can say that " God placed me where he wants me to be".This is the will of Allah (God fobid ) . Allah does not satisfy infidelity or evil for his slaves. In the past some polytheist said that Justification and Allah did not accept their justification and considered them liars.
148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would Our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." so did their ancestors argue falsely, until They tasted of Our Wrath. say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? if so, produce it before us. ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."(6/148)
-- Allah also says "7. If ye reject ((Allah)), truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not blasphemy from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your return, when He will Tell you the truth of all that ye did (in This life). for He knoweth well all that is In (men's) hearts.(39/7) Thank you dear Pandora.

to be continued

[pandora]

Quote

--- If they ( the father,the word and the Holy Ghost ) were deleted from the Bible because they were not found in the oldest manuscript.That means that someones added them to the Bible purposely to market for' trinity" or to show the legitimacy of trinity .I think there is no other justification for that according to my minor thought.Perhaps your point of view is smarter than mine.
--- The current versions says :
New international reader's version7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree

New international version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

New revised Standard version
7 There are three that testify:[b] 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

New American Standard Version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [k]in agreement

Its not about deletion it's about interpretation. The Spirit and the water and the blood refers to the concept of the trinity. At least this is from my understanding. I am not a theologian so my view is from a lay person. I expect you will find my answer on this unsatisfactory but I'm afraid it is all I have as far as my knowledge goes.

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2- You always say " God placed us where God wants us to be, " . This saying is not true .It is called in language " The justification with fate and destiny". The theif can say that phrase to justify the theft "God placed me where he wants me to be" " If he wanted me to be honest he would do that"Then he is a theif accoding to the will of God ( God forbid) Also the atheist and the polytheist or the infidel can say that " God placed me where he wants me to be".This is the will of Allah (God fobid ) . Allah does not satisfy infidelity or evil for his slaves. In the past some polytheist said that Justification and Allah did not accept their justification and considered them liars.

I see what you mean, and of course anyone can make this claim... Like they also say "the devil made me do it" well, of course it is easy to "blame" another rather than take responsibility for ones actions. But I did not mean it like that. God places people where He wishes them to be when it comes to knowledge and understanding of Him and how we fit within His family. God gives us free will to choose how best to achieve that. An atheist, polytheist or infidel !!! Can say such but as they lack faith in God then their words are empty and mean nothing. God abhors evil this is obvious. God does not act against His nature and therefore will not guide people astray. Christians are not slaves, we are children of God, humble servants but never slaves. How do you know what Allah accepts as justification or who he considers liars?

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148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would Our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." so did their ancestors argue falsely, until They tasted of Our Wrath. say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? if so, produce it before us. ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."(6/148)
-- Allah also says "7. If ye reject ((Allah)), truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not blasphemy from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your return, when He will Tell you the truth of all that ye did (in This life). for He knoweth well all that is In (men's) hearts.(39/7) Thank you dear Pandora.

to be continued

Yes, I will concur and agree that God knows well what is in our hearts, there is no hiding. I am not afraid.
May God bless you and continue to guide you.

[pandora]

[QUOTE=عثمان أحمد الشيخ;590189]Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your message . I will start where you have ended. You said:" I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam." .Please, No apology. We have agreed to speak frankly and clearly and without any sensitivity or any critical
1- You said : " My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed" and you think that "If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing."

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--- The matter is not as you think. Allah (pbth) desended The Torah and The Bible to guide people to the true faith and worship the only true God who created me and you all that world . But the followers of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon both of them) did not keep these revelations well . As a result there is no original revelation of these Holy Books now and some humans (excuse me ) messed with these books, they added to and deleted from them according to their fancy ( there is an evidence from the Quran ).So The Almighty Allah descended the Holy Quran and pledged to save it till the day of resurrection.Allah said in the Quran :- " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and we will Assuredly guard it (from corruption).(15/9). So there is only one book all over the world. Muslims all over the world are uttering the Quran as it was descended on the messenger of Allah. The Holy Quran came down to correct the errors that have occurred due to human deeds.

This thing you say is very difficult to accept. Muslims always make this same claim about the Bible message being lost or changed, yet can offer no conclusive proof of this, as to why 1- Jews and Christians would wish to change what they revered as the word of their Holy God. Especially as dire punishment awaits any who dare to change Gods message. There are many warnings of such. Would they be crazy for doing such a thing???

Revelation 22:18-19 says, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

2 - who made these changes? And why were these changes made? And when exactly were these changes made? And what verses in the Bible were changed?

3- Mohammed told Jews and Christians to judge by their scriptures, that was the Torah and the Gospel... If God told Mohammed to tell the Jews and Christians to judge thus.. Why would God be content for Jews and Christians to refer to their scriptures if God knew they were corrupted to the extent of sending a new and completely different revelation? There are other points on this theme that do not make sense to me but I will leave it there.

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---- For an example only to what I wrote :
** In the Old Testament Exo 20/11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". This is the wrong image of Allah the creator of that universe.Allah says : "There is nothing whatever like unto him, and He is the one that hears and sees (All things)".(42/11) and there is a verse like that completely in the Bible. Allah never feel tired that He (pbth) take a rest . That is an insult to The Almighty Allah .So Allah said in the Holy Quran :- "38. We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us.(50/38) .I ask you which of the two verses befitting the dignity and the sanctity and greatness of the Almighty God ?

Here you misunderstand. When Exodus states God "rested" it does not mean God had exhausted His energy, that is a ridiculous notion. The day of rest, as the verse states refers to the Sabbath. No work was done on the sabbath that day was for God alone. God was setting a precedent for mankind that we toil for six days but the seventh we rest and keep holy. How you ascribe something as an insult to God something that God Himself ordained for us I don't understand. Surely muslims keep their sabbath day Holy? You say the Quran claims ....We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, ... What pray does the Quran say God did on the seventh day? If it were not the Muslim sabbath. I do not see any difference between the two verses in regards to ascribing dignity and sanctity and greatness to God, only in your misunderstanding of Exodus, I feel most objections in regards to the Bible stems from misunderstanding..

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Also the image of most prophets is very bad .Does Allah chose fornicator prophets in order to call people to virtue .The image of David (peace be upon him) in the Torah is a shameful image but in the Quran David is a pure ,rightouse and obedient prophet.All prophets and messengers of Allah are the stars of that universe.They are models for us to be followed (peace be upon them all )

No, the image of the prophets is accurate and true. There is nothing shameful in an accurate portrayal of a man if it shows his strengths and weaknesses. For that's what they were, the prophets.... Men and women, human, and as such prone to the normal human weaknesses that it is our human condition to be. All were sinners and in need of God, Jesus was the only sinless being to walk the earth. Prophets were not chosen by God because they were special it was through being chosen that made them special. The Bible shows that if even prophets of God do sin and need Gods redemption then how much more do we need God. We learn important lessons that we all for short of Gods magnificent glory and we are all in need of His gracious mercy and forgiveness... Even prophets.. Even Mohammed had occasion to appeal to God for forgiveness. I feel by portraying the biblical prophets that the Quran recognises as perfect examples of humanity does them a great disservice, because if they were human men and women then it is impossible for them to be pure, they can strive to be both obedient and righteous but knowing they may fail and so are reliant on God as we all are is a greater lesson for us all to learn.

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** In the Bible John 1(5/7-8) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
-- Priests used to use these verses to prove "trinity". Now the phrase " three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:' was deleted from all translated versions all over the world and it is found only in all Arabic versions and in King James version. Peace and blessing to you and to all our brothers and sisters all over that vast world and may Allah (God) guide us all to the right way.Ameen,Ameen.

To be continued

If this was the only instance where the concept of the trinity was to be found in the Bible then you may have some kind of point. It isn't here are a few...

John 17:20-23 ESV
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.


John 15:26 ESV
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Luke 1:35 ESV
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.


John 14:16-17 ESV
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.


John 1:1-51 ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.



John 10:30-36 ESV
I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

John 1:14 ESV
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Matthew 28:19 ESV
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Peace

[عثمان أحمد الشيخ]

Dear Pandora,

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* God abhors evil this is obvious. God does not act against His nature and therefore will not guide people astray.

-- By the way God is called " Allah" in The Holy Bible and in the Holy Quran in all Arabian versions , in all Arabian countries. All Christians and Muslims say "Allah" not God. Allah (pbth) created us free to believe or not believe. If Allah wanted all people of that world to worship him only ,he would have forced them to do that and that is very easy for him. But Allah wanted his creatures to come to him voluntarily with all love and satisfaction. Allah said in the Holy Quran :
29. Say, "The truth is from your Lord": let Him who believe, and let Him who will, reject (it) (18/29)
256. Let there be no compulsion In religion: truth stands out Clear from error: Whoever rejects evil and believes In Allah hath grasped the Most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. and Allah heareth and knoweth all things.(2/256)
-- Allah (pbth) sent prophets and messengers one after other to teach people the way of astray and the straight way.Also he descended his Holy Books to be constitution for them and gave them the freedom to choose their way .He granted them the grace of mind In order to distinguish between right and wrong. Wheat from the chaff..They have to use these graces to choose but he said :
3. We showed Him the way: whether He be grateful or ungrateful (rests on His Will).
4. For the rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a Blazing Fire.
5. As to the righteous, They shall drink of a cup mixed with Kafur,-(76/2-5)
-- He (pbth) also said: 15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for His own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to His own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would we visit with Our wrath until we had sent an apostle (to give warning) (17/15)
-- Then every one is responsible for himself and should bear the result of his deeds in that world although He (pbth) can guide who he wants to astray or to straight way . Allah is not unjust to his slaves (or his servants as you like).

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* Christians are not slaves, we are children of God, humble servants but never slaves. How do you know what Allah accepts as justification or who he considers liars?

-- You say that you are children of God . Why do you claim that Jesus is God because they called him "the son of God" equals completely what you said that you are the child of God .Is there any differences beteen the two phrases? Why did not you call "Adam" God as he is a son of god in the Bible and he does not have a father or a mother ?
Why did not you call Soloman or Israel or David Gods although they are sons of God in the Bible?
Why did not you call peacemakers Gods athough they are sons of God in the Bible? (Mat 5/9)
Why did not you call those who are led by the spirit of God (Gods) although they are sons of God in the Bible (the exambles are many )
-- Is this son-ship actually or metaphorically ? I think they never be actually.What is your point of view ?
--- You said " Christians are not slaves" " humble servants but never slaves."
I appreciate the sensitivity of the word slave . In fact it is written "slave" in the Arabic Bible and in the Quran too. The slavery to human is a state of humiliation and indignity but the slavery to the Almihgty Allah is pride, dignity and sublimity. The messenger of Allah said :" Those who humble themselves to Allah , Allah will lift them".(means Allah will lift their values and bring them closer to him (pbth) .
-- In fact we are proud that the Almighty Allah is our Beneficent and Merciful Master. We Muslims are proud that we are slaves of that great and dignity Holy master .He is more beneficent and more merciful than our fathers and mothers. No human master in that world equals him in his compassion , generosity and tender. Have you ever seen a master feeds his slave if he is hungry , drinks him if he is thirsty ,heals him if he is ill, grants him housing ,wife and children as he had granted him before mind , eyes ,ears, one tongue and two leps.hands ,legs. Allah says in the Holy Quran : 34. And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. but if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.(14/34)
-- Dear Pandora, be humble and modest to Allah and be good slave to Good Master . Mohammad (pbuh) taught us to call him "the slave of Allah and him messenger "Jesus (pbuh) was a model of the great slave to Allah . He used to pray prostrating to Allah ,putting his face on the dust begging to the Almighty God asking him what he wants with all humbly and love. The Holy Bible says :
A) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.(Mat26/39)
B) And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.(Mar 14/35)
C) And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.(Lu 6/12)
--- To whom was Jesus putting his face in dust praying ? to his God and our God or to himself? To whom was he begging to pass the cup from him? I think that he was praying to the only true God that he sent him to mankind .The God that no one saw him or heard his voice .Is he god .Have you ever heard about god who puts his face on dust asking other to help him? little mind Please.
Thank you and may Allah guide me and you to the straight way.Peace be with you and your family.