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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
[SIZE=5][RIGHT]Do you mean repentance or forgiveness of sins? One has to be truly repentant in order to be forgiven by God this is clear from scripture. What this passage in Jonah is saying that God relented, and withheld the promised calamity or destruction against the people of Nineveh.. Which was deserved for their evil.. By appearing repentant they avert the judgement. God can do that... If God always dispensed His divine judgement upon evil doers.. Who would be left? It does not say God forgave them. History shows that two generations later God did indeed bring destruction on Nineveh and the Assyrian nation she represented. Theirs was not a true and lasting repentance. The message of Jonah is not the repentance of the people of Nineveh but the sovereignty of God who accomplishes His purpose... Even despite disobedient prophets, such as Jonah. Which if you read about Jonah you will see. Also the people of Nineveh were not Israelites and would not be under the law of the Torah.



Psalm 51 was written by King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover his sin... I understand you do not hold with this account, on that basis you won't understand the context of the passage, as you deny the event happened then why would the passage have any relevance at all for yourself!!


Psalm 51:17 says... "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise." The meaning of this is connected with the verse just before it. In verse 16 ... "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.


Take note ...although David sinned against Bathsheba and her husband, he makes this statement to God... "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight" verse 4.. David understood how his sin effects a Holy God. Sin is a violation of Gods nature. One can be truly repentant and yes God forgives those who are truly repentant where it counts in their heart.. However, that act of repentance does not remove the consequence of the sin, that bears a penalty.. Which has to be paid for. As God is just.

Peace unto you
First of I am going to establish an important thing before I continue because I see this as a source of confusement to you although this is a debate and should be already understood:

WHEN I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE TO YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE IN IT RATHER I AM QUOTING BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE I IT THIS IS HOW DEBATES WORK , YOU QUOTE THE SOURCES OF THE OTHER TO OBLIGE HIM OR HER WITH THEIR OWN SOURCES

Second : As for your answer concerning Jonah , now you talking about simple technicalities

first the text starts by this :

4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming,“Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Jonah 3: 4-5


So this text clearly describe them believing in god that itself is repentece since they according to the text here truly became believers , the text also goes on according to the new international version of the bible :
8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence.9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

So the text describes them as clearly returning from evil and leaving that to go to god , if they were unbelievers they would have been destroyed like the people of Noa for example.

Note: We muslims do not believe in the rest of the stories about Jonah's disobedience in Jonah 4 , nor it is written in the quran nor in the hadeeth . It is also not the subject of our discussion


Third: I do understand the context of the passage but apparantly you don't undestand how debates work , Again we do not believe that David peace be upon him committed adoltrey BUT you do so I am quoting it.

However your statement here contradicts the text :

David is stating that there is nothing we can offer God to appease Him when we have sinned... Unless any sacrifice offered is from a truly repentant heart then it is worthless and God would take no pleasure in it. It in itself does not say that blood atonement was not required under the law of the Torah.

This statement is contradicted by what david said according to the bible:

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

David clearly here is saying that sacrifice for this sin to repent it is not fullfilling , plus the sacrifice here is animal but nevertheless David is literrally stating that this sin cannot be undone or forgiven by sacrifice, I never said that blood (animal ) is never required however It is not required in most circumstances in which I have explained earlier in our discussion



The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise


Here David clearly describes what kind of sacrifice needed to forgive him which is a true repentance from the heart and THAT IS MY POINT there is no need for god to sacrifice his son , David clearly states that all that is needed is a true repentence by the individual to god and regret for committing a sin

The rest of what you said about a sin requiring a penalty is contradicted by the what daivd said about a broken heart and spirit , it is just your own attempt to force your understanding on the reality of the text

And this is what is stated and taught in the OT :

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

Ezekiel 18 :21-22

These three examples in the OT of David , Jonah and Ezekiel clearly shows that god can forgive a sin if someone truly repents without the need of blood or so called penalty