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The first question to you Pandora do you believe that the Bible is the true word of God?
عرض للطباعة
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The first question to you Pandora do you believe that the Bible is the true word of God?
Huria.. Is this your thread of proofs? You said you would answer my ...so far unanswered questions.. That being..
~ who corrupted the scriptures? ~ why the need to change the scripture? ~ and when did this happen? ~ I thought this was to be the topic... And you have the evidence..
Huria, I am a woman blessed by God with a great measure of patience.. I hope you are not going to try that patience sorely. ;)
***sigh***
To your question ... I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. It is not possible for such a Book to exist if it were not divinely inspired. As it is not possible for God to lie or deceive then the Bible has to be truth.
Im not sure if you want me to add anything else .. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why you even ask the question.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Pandora you admit it's not only God's word?
Huria, is this going to set the tone for this thread? Did you read my post? Or simply chose to skim and seek for one word or phrase that you see can may somehow trip me up and prove your point? Come on... Get with the programme here!!!!! :)اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
what I said was ~ The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. ~ how do you get it's not only God's word from that? Do you know what inspired means? I'm sure you do. A dictionary definition is at follows..
in·spired [in-spahyuhrd]
adjective
1.
aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or as if by supernatural or divine influence: an inspired poet.
2.
resulting from such inspiration: an inspired poem; an inspired plan.
3.
inhaled: inspired air.
you already know that unlike the Quran the Bible is not ONE book, but a collection of Books. These Books contain the direct revelation from God to Prophets such as Moses.. Abraham etc. some Prophets received their revelations from God through dreams and visions. Other received their revelation by inspiration through the Holy Spirit. Inspiration is a given understanding of God's message that He wills to be relayed to mankind through His creation. Those conveying that message will use language of the time .. Their own words. The meaning behind those words are Gods. That is why we believe the Bible to be an inspired word of God. The teachings of Jesus we see as Gods word directly.. Because Jesus is Gods uncreated eternal word. The entire Bible as one book, you could say has one author, the Holy Spirit, and has one purpose the fall of man, and God’s way to redeem him, one theme. For example... you cannot understand the book of Revelation in the New Testament unless you study the books of Genesis and Daniel in the Old Testament.. You cannot understand the book of Hebrews in the New Testament unless you study the book of Leviticus in the Old Testament. Given that the creation of the Bible was over a period of 1500 by 40 different authors from all walks of life... On 3 continents it can only be inspired by God.. It would be impossible to produce such a work by mans efforts alone.
Timothy 3:16-17.
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete [mature], thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Lord Jesus said
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26)
I hope my explanation is clear enough.... And not overlong.
Peace to you.
Do not worry we will get to the truth, it just I don’t want this thread to be chatting thread like you normally do, and this is the last reply to any side talksاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
No dictionary needed, and I am not misquoting you, I am trying to understand, if you really think it is word of men I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
So let’s see what you have said
Direct words how did that reach us? By the gospels writers by inspiration from the holy ghost?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Then you say the words of men inspired by the holy spirit?? So I am really confused here what do you mean!!!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
The first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?
Please clarify ..
What do you mean??
Then you say this!:p016:
What does that mean, God behind the words?? Is it God’s words or their words, their expressions? Before you say I am misquoting you, you are saying it is in their own words!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.
Unlike the bible, every letter in the Quran is word of God.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Well this is the first problem before deciding if the Bible was divine or not, how many books are divine 66 or 73? :p016:اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Huria, with all due respect I don't think this is going to work. You keeping promising evidences but don't deliver. ~ who changed the scriptures? Why did they feel it necessary? And when did they do it? ~ I can only assume that you don't actually have the information. Besides you don't seem able to understand anything I say, even when I make the effort to simplify things.. You still can't see it. I'm of the opinion that you can't allow yourself to see what I say.. Rather than you lack the intelligence... Because you obviously are intelligent and have an excellent command of the English language.. So I'm at a loss to see how we can get past this.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
Given that we have a limited life span on this earth.. Is there any danger of getting to this "truth" any time soon? Chatting!!! Side talks!!! Indeedy.. If you just post your evidence to my questions I can consider what you have and see weather God will allow me to see the truth of it. If I cannot see the truth of it or it does not make sense then we may discuss it further or not...
I believe I said I was a wordy person... That's how God made me.. Get over it.
I always try to be as helpful as I can. But if you feel you have more to bring.. Then bring it on.اقتباس:
No dictionary needed, and I am not misquoting you, I am trying to understand, if you really think it is word of men I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.
Why are you confused by this?? God spoke His words directly to certain Prophets in the Bible.. Moses.. Abraham.. And Noah.. For starts. Jesus goes without saying..that's a given. Are you quibbling about who actually wrote down the words in the first instance? Or doubting that these direct spoken words of God to His chosen Prophets were not given due respect and treated in a shabby manner and who ever just made it up?اقتباس:
So let’s see what you have said
Direct words how did that reach us? By the gospels writers by inspiration from the holy ghost?
So I take it you obviously must know the names of all the scribes that first penned the Quran? Who gathered the fragments of various materials and copied it all into the form you have today.
maybe you're confused because you lack the knowledge of the Holy Spirit and all it entails. I can see that may be a possible stumbling block for you. The Holy Spirit inspires the minds of men.. Jesus promised the Spirit would strengthen the Disciples and enable them to remember correctly all He had taught and preach His message to all mankind. The Holy Spirit brings knowledge and understanding of Gods will, even today Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides us to the right path. The Holy Spirit does not dictate the words but brings an understanding of what needs to be told.اقتباس:
Then you say the words of men inspired by the holy spirit?? So I am really confused here what do you mean!!!
I really cannot think how I can make things any clearer than that... If you still don't get the point I'm trying to make, then maybe this thread... Although well intentioned... Is doomed to failure before it even starts.اقتباس:
The first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?
Please clarify ..
What do you mean??
Its in your hands.. Peace to you
Still with itch the chit chat!!!!!!!
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
We do not believe that all the Bible is the actual words of God. We DO believe that all the Bible is the inspired word of God. That's to say.. The Prophets, authors.. Whatever .... were given the understanding and guidance by God as to what the Bible message was to be. That message is clear, consistent, has no contradictions or errors as you see there to be.
[QUOTE]If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.[/QURAN]
We see the Bibles message is clear, and consistent. Any work that bears the hand of man it is possible to contain error. This is even true of the Quran.. It has to be because if you claim that the hands of men who committed Gods word to written form in the Bible then the same has to be true of the Quran. Because the Muslim scribes were human and as such would have been prone to making the same spelling or textual errors. This should not affect the message any. Because Gods word (as in the message) cannot be changed.
Well, that's your belief.. Which in itself raises problems because any contradiction.. (And I believe there are quite a few... Although you would deny it. ) it then looks as if God has made a mistake, and as we know that is not possible.اقتباس:
Unlike the bible, every letter in the Quran is word of God.
اقتباس:
Well this is the first problem before deciding if the Bible was divine or not, how many books are divine 66 or 73?
Not a problem for me at all.. Jesus was always the message not the messenger... If we have that we have everything we need. The books 66 or 73 or even more... Add a rich historical perspective to the unfolding of Gods plan for mankind. It's a beautiful, perfect plan.. One that can only be attributed to a Holy and loving God.اقتباس:
:p016:
It shouldn't be a problem for you either... As you have already bought out of the plan.. And made another choice. So it doesn't impact on your life on earth at all. :) so.. Have a good one .. Life that is..
peace to you.
Greetings once again Huria, apologies just one more chit chat point to add... You said..
please I do not need a thesis from you attempting to point out all the errors you see in the Bible, in the hope you can prove it is not an inspired work of God. That's been done before.. As exercises go I consider it a waste of time. Christians in general have faith that God guides as He wills. It's the understanding of the message that's important not the words that are used in the telling. That understanding comes from the Holy Spirit and anyone who accepts Christ the in dwelling of the Spirit is part and parcel of the package. I tell you this as I don't wish that you waste your time on a long drawn out pamphlet style post that will prove nothing in respect to my having faith in God, and accepting Jesus as my saviour.اقتباس:
I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.
Really what I would find useful is to see this proof you have to the three simple points I make...
who changed the scriptures? ~ when were they changed? ~ and why was it thought necessary to make the changes?
If you can offer your proof of these points I will be happy to read it.. If you have any proof of what exactly was changed then that's a bonus. But a big ask so don't knock yourself out on that one. :)
peace and blessings. May God guide you.
Quran 2:79 “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.”.
We do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)
Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
Do not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are manyاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Wow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.
· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.
· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.
You keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
May be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!:p017:اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12
Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12
Christians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Although the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82
The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.
The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:
"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)
and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:
“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)
The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.
One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.
You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.
I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39
“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
Before I address your opening statement I would like if you please for you to explain to me what you take as the meaning of this Sura.
Is this your opinion, the opinion of all muslims or just particular sects of Islam? The text below from Wiki.. The link is there if you wish to take a look and offer alternative proof.اقتباس:
We do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!
We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)
Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
Due to the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in disjointed verses and chapters, a point came when it needed to be gathered into a coherent whole text. There are disagreements among both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars as to when the Qur'an was compiled. Some believe Muhammad compiled it before he died, while others believe it was collected by either Ali ibn Abu Talib or Abu Bakr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran
Good.. I am pleased to hear that!اقتباس:
Do not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are many
اقتباس:
Wow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.
· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.
· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”
اقتباس:
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.
Weather it be Gods word spoken to His Prophets by God Himself or Gods word brought through His Spirits inspiration it's one and the same. That you cannot see this is a slight cause for concern. We see it as the authoritative word of God and do not doubt Gods power to protect His word from all corruption.
If you don't believe we have no original manuscripts left, or should I say in existence during the 7th century, how do you know what was corrupted? If there is no original you have nothing to compare to, so making claims of changes is nothing more than idle speculation.
The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from.
We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.
Yes! and I will keep asking this until you give me the answer you said you had to these three... for me, very important points. In fact that is really all the proof I wish to see. So please stop throwing straw men into the mix.اقتباس:
You keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.
اقتباس:
May be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!
اقتباس:
:p017:
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12
Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12
I probably could if I thought you were really that interested..... But I see you are just trying to be controversial. What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. They may make sense to you. I suggest Isaiah would be a good one to start. :) I always like reading the Book of Isaiah.. Very interesting prophet. I do not think he has a mention in the Quran or does he?
This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand. You are talking of men, weak men and sinners. Are you so sure these types of men do not exists within Islam? Are all Muslim men righteous?اقتباس:
Christians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!
I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you so have no wish to discuss my feelings on the Quran with you. As I see it is OK for you to criticise, denigrate and abuse the Bible without censure it would not be ok for me to do the same with the Quran. Besides I would not wish to because I can respect the fact that it holds great importance to yourselves. May I just ask, and if it offends you don't have to answer.. Why are you so sure it was God speaking to Mohammed through Gabriel? How can you trust an Angel that brought a different message several hundred years earlier? I am guessing you would say you have faith that it is truth... Well.. I also have faith in Gods message as revealed in the Bible.اقتباس:
Although the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82
The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.
The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:
"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)
and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:
“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)
The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.
One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.
You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.
I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39
“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7
I have to say I am a little disappointed with your replies so far... Some interesting points on your view of the Quran. But you did not address my questions. I was not asking much, just the answer to my 3 questions, which you sort of implied you could answer and even bring proof. It would be interesting if you clarified a bit on your opening statement, like what meaning you yourself take from it. I think it does have a baring on the topic in hand.
Peace
Pandora, rest assured it does not offend me the slightest, but you keep jumping from one point to another, your aim is clear you do not want to answer, so what best than thrown a little accusation here and there. All I am saying lets finish the topic at hand then you can put all your points against the Quran, after we are done with your book. So if you so sure of your book defend the points I brought not just choose what you like to address, and jumping from one point to totally different point.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
In fact it has everything that with the topic, you keep telling us Christians are guided by holy spirit, and Christians even believe those who are closer to God are chosen by God and guided by holy spirit!! If these who are spouse to be closer to God do these acts, how about the ordinary Christians who are guided by holy spirit ??
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Do not worry we will entertain you, and address your points from wikiislam but first answer the points I have raised. If you do not even know who wrote the book, how can you trust what in it?
So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.
Here they are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.
Not the word!! Clever move, the only verse that you can use to defend trinity is by fake verse.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Huria, this thread was where I thought you were going to answer my questions and provide your proof.اقتباس:
Pandora, rest assured it does not offend me the slightest, but you keep jumping from one point to another, your aim is clear you do not want to answer, so what best than thrown a little accusation here and there. All I am saying lets finish the topic at hand then you can put all your points against the Quran, after we are done with your book. So if you so sure of your book defend the points I brought not just choose what you like to address, and jumping from one point to totally different point.
Who corrupted the Bible? Why did they do it? And when did this happen?
If you cannot answer these questions please just say so. This is the point you keep jumping from. So maybe it would be better if I refrain from answering all the other points you keep bringing into the mix until this.. What as see as my main point.. And on which I thought the discussion was going to be based on is dealt with. That is you answer with your proof or just say you cannot answer these questions. There's no shame to that.. I would prefer you say you don't know rather than all this beating around the bush and procrastination.
I will answer your points as truthfully and honestly as I can, but can we please just get past this one little issue.... Pretty please..
BTW.. It was Wikipedia ... Not wiki islam.. ;)
looking forward in great anticipation to your answer.
Blessings
Just re read your post.. I do hope we have not reached a stalemate already, :( honestly.. Just say if you even intend to answer my questions at some stage in the not so distant future.. And not just leading me down the garden path. And I will answer your points.
Pax
Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.
The other point is about the Holy Spirit guidance, I have made an article concerning this point:Christians always say that they believe in the Holy Spirit as the guider to the truth as Jesus said:
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
As it is written about the function of the Holy Spirit:
In Christian theology Holy Spirit is believed to perform specific divine functions in the life of the Christian or the church. The action of the Holy Spirit is seen as an essential part of the bringing of the person to the Christian faith.[48] The new believer is “born again of the Spirit”.[49] The Holy Spirit enables Christian life by dwelling in the individual believers and enables them to live a righteous and faithful life.[48] The Holy Spirit also acts as comforter or Paraclete, one who intercedes, or supports or acts as an advocate, particularly in times of trial. And it acts to convince the unredeemed person both of the sinfulness of their actions, and of their moral standing as sinners before God.[50] Another faculty of the Holy Spirit is the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit both inspires the writing of the scriptures and interprets them to the Christian and/or church.[51]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Christianity)
So if all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the inspiration and interpretation of scriptures, why do Christians have that vast diversity among them in both aspects?
Let’s talk first about inspiration, till now there is a diversity between Catholics and Protestants about the number of books of the Bible, as the Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66 only and believe that others are apocrypha. Ethiopian and Coptic churches have even more books.
If we looked at the New Testament, although its canon has been settled now, but actually this wasn’t the case among early church fathers. There have been some books as epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas that were accepted by many fathers, now they are not in the NT canon. On the other hand, some of the books accepted now as second epistle of Peter, book of Hebrews and book of Revelations, this link can be a nice list made telling about the disputed books:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html
If we are talking about Bible interpretations then we can see the diversity in faith among Christian churches, some of them are like having statues and images of saints, belief in Mary whether it is the mother of the Lord or not, immaculate conception, Holy Spirit himself who is supposed to guide Christians, Christians have diversity whether he is proceeded from the Father only or the Father and the Son, and here we go.
Even among early church fathers as well, there have been many misinterpretations and opinions that are against Christian theology although Christians consider them as orthodoxy church fathers who fought heresy, and believe they had a role in proving the NT true by quoting verses in their books. Actually these orthodoxy fathers adopted non orthodoxy opinions, and this can be shown more in my article concerning church fathers and Bible preservation:
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/church-fathers-bible/
The question now is; if the Holy Spirit actually guides Christians, Why didn’t he guide the early fathers? Either he guided them and they rejected, this means that they are no more orthodox as they reject the Holy Spirit. Or that he didn’t guide them, which negates what Christians believe in the Holy Spirit guidance. If the Holy Spirit guides all Christians, why do we see many Christian sects? Yes many Christians among different sects believe their sect is the only true one, this question may not apply to them, but the first question still applies. Other Christians who believe the diversity among sects is not something major or believe to be non-denominational may need to have an answer to this question as well as the first question.
So when Christians say that they are guided with the Holy Spirit, the answer shall be: which one?http://jesus-is-muslim.net/holy-spirit-and-guidance/
Greetings Huria, I realise it is wrong of me to not answer your points just because you choose not to answer my questions. You may not have the answers.. Or need more time to find them. So I'll cut you a deal.. How about I explain the meaning behind Ezekiel 23:20 From a Christian perspective, then you can think about answering a question of mine.. You know the questions so I don't need to repeat them again. I may have to beg your pardon in advance as the explanation is likely to be wordy.. :) given my nature and all.
Firstly what is important with any Book from the Bible is to understand the context of time and historical place it was set and who was the target audience. You may not see this need as the Quran is just one work maybe context does not play such a big part. After all it's creation only spans about 22 years I understand whereas the Bible spans over 2000 years... The Jewish scriptures even longer. That out of the way onto Ezekiel.اقتباس:
What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
Ezekiel is a fairly long book of 48 chapters, however does have a logical, orderly structure that makes it easy to analyze and understand. It falls naturally into three main divisions... Which are (1) judgment on the nation of Judah (verses 4-24) which is where the verse that causes you such concerns stands (2) judgment on the surrounding nations (verses 25-32).. and (3) the future blessing of GOD's Covenant People (verses 33-48).
Ezekiel was a priest who lived among the other citizens of the nation of Judah as a captive of Babylon during the years of the Captivity. His revelation came from God through visions which are described at the start of the book. he continued to receive these visions throughout his lifetime. His message was proclaimed to Gods covenant people and also the Gentile nations that surrounded the land of Israel.
Its the first section of the book... Bit which you quote..that has Ezekiel describing GOD's judgment on the nation of Judah because of its rampant idolatry. It is written in the form of a parable, I am not sure if you have parables as a form of prophecy in the Quran, but in the Bible they are often used by many of the prophets and also Jesus.. I think it encourages the reader to see the deeper meaning behind words.. As words can sometimes be taken to mean something different to which they wish to convey... And the message is always more important than the just the words.
The parable refers to the “whorish” behaviour of a pair of women as a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites from two nations... “Oholah which is Samaria, and Oholibah which is Jerusalem.” We take it that what the biblical interpretation tells us is that the message of Ezekiel 23 is a warning to the nations of Earth to not be godless in our actions toward other nations, or God will give permission for the other nations to kill the former. You may see the language as quite strong, but what you fail to see the world at that time was a harsh place and idolatry was rife. Sometimes harsh times demand harsh language and harsh actions if goodness is to prevail. You as a Muslim must understand that the main command from God is that He is the One God and only He is worthy of worship. People of the Old Testament understood Gods righteous wrath, yet many times they were so weak they slipped back to the sin of idolatry. You think God should ignore this?
The next part of the book (verses 25-32) proclaims GOD's judgment against the Gentile nations surrounding the land of Israel. Included are judgments against Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyre and Sidon, and Egypt.
The final section of the book (verses 33-48) speaks of the future restoration of the people of Israel. GOD promised that His Covenant People would be restored to their homeland after their period of exile in Babylon. (Verses 40-48) describe the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the renewal of sacrifices and authentic worship. These chapters are similar in tone and content to the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation. Ezekiel ends by pointing forward to the glorious kingdom of Jesus the Messiah...
I'll quickly address Ezekiel 4:12 seeing as it's from the same book..and I'm feeling kind... ;) this was written near the start when the people were living in captivity under harsh conditions.. When it states ..Thou shalt bake it with dung ... . Dried ox and cow dung was a common fuel and with this, for the lack of wood and coals, they were obliged to prepare their food. Indeed, dried excrement of every kind is gathered. When we see the prophet is to prepare his bread with dry human excrement...Btw .. we know that this did not come in contact with the bread, and was only used to warm the plate, on which the bread was laid over the fire, understanding it was common practice at THAT time and under THOSE circumstances.. It does not seem quite that horrific. Yet it goes to show the extreme degree of wretchedness to which they were exposed.. for, not being able to leave the city to collect the dried excrements of beasts, the inhabitants during the siege would be obliged, literally, to use dried human dung for fuel. However, if we read further we find that the prophet was relieved from using this kind of fuel, for cow's dung was substituted at his request.
Peace to you... Hope my explanation didn't bore you too much. Last word.. Just to mention once more I am never offended by anything you may quote from the Bible. I would only ever be offended if I thought you were deliberately being disrespectful towards what I see as Gods message. Even then I would forgive you. :)
Lool you are something all that and I have not answered your questions?? You do not even know who wrote your bible I asked you, no answerاقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
I asked you where the original gone no answer
I asked you where did Jesus claim divinity no answer, and then you tell me where are my answers??
Thanks for explaining the meaning behind those verses, long answer to tell me what I heard from Christians before it is parable or metaphor, anything in the bible cause a problem it is parable or metaphor
How about answering my questions now??
So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.
Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.
I am sure you will go off topic again !:p016:
Jazak Allah khair brother for your great input, I like the example you gave for the murdered guy, I showed her how her book was murdered, both Luke and Mathew copied from Mark, all the points I raised about the assumed writers of the gospels, then she is asking, is it really murdered? How is it murdered?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled
Ok..my patience at an end.. Forget it Huria. You cannot play fair. You ridicule scripture, you make ridiculous claims with no evidence.. And when asked to bring proof that you say you have to hand then you will not do so. Three little questions I ask.. Just three. Yet you bombard me with a long list of points and demand I answer each and everyone. If I do answer you dismiss it out of hand.!!!! I thought we could have got somewhere and achieved some level of understanding through dialogue. I see now that is not your aim.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
What on earth is the point you want to make.? If I say "oh you are right and the Bible has errors because men wrote the words" will you then answer by questions? NO.. I don't believe you will because you have nothing. No proof of your claims of Bible corruption because no proof exists except that which is born in your minds.
Get this.. It doesn't matter to a Christian what muslims think or believe about the Bible. Because it means nothing to you... Yet means everything to us. To you your Book to me mine..
I wish you well on your chosen path. Peace.
Pandora in another thread says
So translations contain errors, you consider these translations word of God.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Let me see how the central message cannot be lost if we omit a word from that sentence
The verse says I am NOT God
Translators will translate it I am God
No central meaning lost here!!:p016:
I am sorry, but with all due respect... you have got to be having a laugh!!!! You actually believe that it is ok to claim the Holy Scriptures of another who holds it in highest esteem.. has been corrupted .. And not offer any proof whatsoever to back up their claim????اقتباس:
Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.
if I came out with the claim that the Quran is not the word of God and I have proof... Would you expect me to come forth and show you the proof?
I'm not sure I can even be bothered getting into a debate about the nature of the Holy Spirit.. I can see it will go nowhere. It's been said that some muslims believe the Holy Spirit to be Gabriel.. An angel.. So really... Best leave it.
I wish you on your chosen path M. Khaled. May God bless and guide you.
Huria, enough already, you are being ridiculous!!! Muslims claim for the Quran that the original Quran in Arabic is the defining one and all translations into other languages are to be known as translations. As Arabic does not have some of the equivalent words in say .. English for example. Would that be considered a textual error or variation? Does that possible textual variant detract in any way from the central message of the Quran?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
Yet somehow you see textual variants in translations of the Bible somehow completely changes and corrupts the central message to such an extent that God had to send another Prophet with a completely different central message. That may be ok for Allah but it sure does not apply to YHWH the God all the Prophets worshipped... YHWH is all powerful and perfectly able to protect His message from corruption from His humble creation... Man.
All Gods words in their Original form are true and their message is incorruptible. We have faith in God to stand by His Word.. Jesus..and His message remains the same no matter what words of men are used. You can take that to the bank!!!!
Are we done here?
Peace
Pandora, I knew you will not answer because you have no answers, your book is corrupted and it is been corrupted to this day but you do not want to see the truth. It is all clear in this thread for true seeker of the truth.
'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'
you can't make the deaf hear, and you can't make the blind see.
اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
Huria, I did not say I would not answer your questions.. You asked so many.. More than my three questions which you repeatedly ignore. In fact you have not answered any of my questions. This thread just seems to be a vehicle for your refutes. I confess I find your manner difficult, but that is my problem not yours.. :) So, as you have asked so many points I will answer them separately.. Or try to. I hope you will grant me the curtesy of choosing the order in which I answer.
You ask if we have original Manuscripts the answer is we have copies of the originals and many (hundreds) of them, The Jews made copies of the torah in Hebrew and the Greek Christians made copies of the Old Testament it's not unreasonable to assume the loss of original as the materials they were recorded on would not have lasted and long rotted. You have no reason or evidence to show that the oldest copies we have in existence today are faithful copies of the original autographs.. After all they believed they were dealing with Gods divine message.
Also we didn't have a Christian Uthman to burn all our original copies to come up with one standard version or translation... We can compare and contrast and make God given intelligent decisions what God was saying in context by looking up words in Greek or Hebrew etc etc, This is something you as Muslims cannot do. Uthman burned the original Qurans and he didn't use memory to reconstruct it... As historical accounts claim he used Hafsah’s copy of the original and after her death, her copy was destroyed. Now this said to have happened after Muhammad’s death.. so, why do you pick on the Scriptures that God sent before when Allah said he sent them and his word in unalterable? If the Bible is corrupted as you imply, then so the Quran is also open to this possibility.. Because at some point in its conception men were involved... So you ask me how can we know the Bible is the true inspired word of God but can you prove prefect preservation of the Quran, because of the actions of Uthman. At least we didn’t burn our copies... We still have them for reference. We take it on faith that God sent the Torah and Gospel.
The central Gospel message is consistent. Jesus died for our sin and He is the only way to God, because He is the word of God. We believe there is only one God and Jesus is His word. Jesus is the word God used to create all things.. even the Quran states He is a word from Allah “BE” which is a form of I am. That is why Jesus could say “before Abraham was I am” He is the “Be” God used to create all things including you. Jesus is the word of God not a partner of God. He is the word that is eternal and uncreated. He is not a messenger.. he is the message. Jesus forgave sin, and accepted worship. We are not stupid. He doesn’t have to say I am Divine. We know in our hearts that He is the word of God and God exalts His word above all his name. We don’t associate anyone with God. Mohammed never criticized the Bible... he respected it as from God..he may have criticised some Jews and Christians but never the Bible itself.
Mohammed had friends that could read, and he heard gospel stories via oral tradition..it's perfectly feasible that he heard stories this way such as the virgin birth... Which was only found in the New Testament.. This could have influenced his revelations. You take it on faith that his revelations ( the Quran ) were from Allah via Gabrielle. Yet you criticise Christians for having faith that God revealed His Word to us through ( the Bible ).. So we don’t need to know the last names of inspired men of God... Or even the names on the scribes who penned the words..Our faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of what we don’t see. If you took all the Bibles and the Quran's and threw them into the ocean.. (I hear this comparison often) you could reproduce the Quran from oral tradition. Well.. The Gods word is independent of the Bible.. His Word is etched on the hearts of believers.
Peace
Before we address the issue of the Holy Spirit I just re read your example above I don't quite see the analogy... if you saw a dead body in the street found him murdered.. and showed it to someone else. .. Then you are asked to prove how this person died..the who, how and why??? But where is the body of evidence you saw regarding the alleged corruption of Gods word? The authorities can't convict anyone of murder without the body. Where is the "body"? Once we see the "body" for ourselves, we can then determine who killed him, how and when. You haven't produced a "body". For all I know, you are seeing things that aren't there. I ask to see the evidence of this "body".. This proof you have.. Yet nothing? And you see that this lack of evidence on your part has no baring on your case??? Would that stand in a court of law do you think?اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled
The Bible itself claims to be written under “Inspiration” from the Holy Spirit. God revealed Himself through Prophets to speak to a much larger audience.... Mankind. In the same way some one would pick up a pen as an instrument to achieve a goal.. The pen becomes the tool in the hand of the writer, the prophet is God’s pen in revelation. To illustrate ... if I wrote my name on a piece of paper with a pen... who wrote the name? Me or the pen?... The pen does not have the power to write on its own thus I am the force or spirit behind the pen..just as God is the Force or Spirit behind the Prophets. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God conveys understanding.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة huria
We've already established the Bible ( unlike the Quran) is a collection of books. As the prophets received revelation the books were collected in manuscript form. The original manuscript, written by the prophet is known as the autograph. The autograph is inspired by God from the first generation. The autograph is then copied to additional manuscripts. As the manuscripts wear out over time from use and environment.... the manuscript is again copied onto a new scroll. This process of copying the old manuscript to a new manuscript is known as manuscript transmission. Over a period of time the manuscripts from accepted prophets were collected. This collection of manuscripts is known to us as the Bible.... Which is what we have today.. Whatever you may think or believe to the contrary. You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask. But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?
The Bible can only have been produced under divine inspiration.. Mankind could not have produced a coherent account of Creation.. Mankind's fall and Gods ultimate plan for our redemption to bring us back to where we were always meant to be with God the Father... Without the will of God... Without the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His Word Jesus... That's what we have in the Bible. There are no contradictions in the Word of God that effect the central theme of His message.
BTW... God decides everything.
Peace.
You misunderstood my point. I didn't say that I don't have a proof. I have a plenty of proof and you can take your time reading it here:اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/the-bible/
My point is that your argument "to prove me the Bible is corrupted tell me who corrupted it? and why and how?" has nothing to do with the Bible corrupted or not. If I want to prove that a guy is murdered then it has it's medical ways, but to ask me: "in order to prove that this guy is murdered tell me who murdered him and how and why" I have nothing to do with that nor does this prove that the guy in front of us who is shot by a bullet is not murdered. He is already shot in front of us, to look for the origin of the crime is something else than proving that this is a crime we see.
Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:اقتباس:
But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?
And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask. I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted.. There by leaving us without correct guidance. Why would a Holy God do this? As a test?? That is even more illogical.. Seeing as God is omniscient God would know the outcome thus rendering the test obsolete before it started.. You are right, this is not about Bible canon.. So leave that for another time. Yet you continue to miss the point that Gods message cannot be changed. The onus is rather on yourselves to prove these claims you make against the Bible since I have the utmost faith that the core message the Bible contains is unaltered in essence from its conception and for all eternity.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة M.Khaled
Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :
http://www.normgeisler.com/articles/...0Testament.pdf
I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,اقتباس:
Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?
Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
Ps. 111:7-8 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
Is. 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Ps. 117:2 "... the truth of the Lord endureth for ever. Praise ye the Lord."
Ps. 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."
Ps 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
We also have the Living Word of God Jesus who said..
Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.
Peace.
am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)
Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.اقتباس:
المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة pandora
Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.اقتباس:
I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted..
So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.اقتباس:
Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :
So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.اقتباس:
I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,
And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.اقتباس:
I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.
Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.اقتباس:
am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)