Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror?

There are two contradictory answers in the Bible . Every answer contradict completely with the other. And that is something normal in Christianity . Christian mind absorbs and accepts the thing and its opposite .Even can understand Irrational thoughts as long as priests told them that. The examples are numerous in the Bible.
1- The first answer is :- Yes, Christianity is the religion of peace and love and here is the evidence from the Bible :

MAT-5-39 : But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
MAT-5-40 : And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
MAT-5-41 : And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
MAT-5-42 : Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
MAT-5-43 : Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
MAT-5-44 : But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
2- The second contradicted answer is :- Yes, Christianity is the religion of revenge and terror snd here is the evidence from the sameBible :

1- MAT-10-34 : Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
MAT-10-35 : For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
2- EZE-9-5 : And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
EZE-9-6 : Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
EZE-9-7 : And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
3- JER-48-10 : Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.
4- ISA-13-16 : Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
ISA-13-17 : Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
ISA-13-18 : Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
ISA-13-19 : And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
ISA-13-20 : It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
5- HOS-13-16 : Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
6- NUM-31-17 : Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
NUM-31-18 : But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
NUM-31-19 : And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
NUM-31-20 : And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
7- Jos 11/ 9And Joshua did unto them as the LORD bade him: he houghed their horses, and burnt their chariots with fire.
Jos 11/10 And Joshua at that time turned back, and took Hazor, and smote the king thereof with the sword: for Hazor beforetime was the head of all those kingdoms.
JOS-11-11 : And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.
JOS-11-12 : And all the cities of those kings, and all the kings of them, did Joshua take, and smote them with the edge of the sword, and he utterly destroyed them, as Moses the servant of the LORD commanded.
8- SA1-15-3 : Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass
9- CH1-20-3 : And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

Christian Istttsa mind that absorbs and accommodates thing against him and also the absurd
10- Deu 20/16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
*** What cruelty and terrorism is that " Does God orders with killing children and pregnant women, The Crusades were carrying out the instructions of the Bible as well as in Bosnia and Herzegovina . We repeat the Question . Is Christianity the religion of peace and love or the religion of revenge and terror? . I leave the answer to the smart reader ........

This is about context... That I have to adhere to when quoting the Quran.. But yourself can blissfully ignore when it comes to quoting the Bible.

When you fail to use context then your post above make little sense. I expect a Muslim with little knowledge of the Bible will be impressed by such. However, a person who kind of knows the Bible will just see how you have misunderstood the nature of the Bible as a work.

You have mixed verses from the Old Testament and the New Testament, the majority of the verses you have chosen to prove your point from the Old Testament are in regards to Gods judgement of wicked people... The Old Testament prophets did not question Gods judgement even when it may have been violent they recorded it as it happened as it was to serve as a lesson on Gods righteous wrath. They believed God knew best, which if I'm not mistaken muslims also believe of Allah.. That Allah knows best.

How do you as a Muslim justify the violent verses in the Quran? Or do they make sense to you when read in context of the time, circumstance and place?

I hope you see my point.

Peace to you.

Excuse me pandora,
You do not know anything in Christianity or in Islam. The Bible contains The Old Testament and The New Testament Christians believe that they are the words of God .If you want to discuss these topics. You must study your faith well and the faith of Muslims through the Bible and the Holy Quran. The matter is not easy. You waste time in nonsense

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Excuse me pandora,
You do not know anything in Christianity or in Islam. The Bible contains The Old Testament and The New Testament Christians believe that they are the words of God .If you want to discuss these topics. You must study your faith well and the faith of Muslims through the Bible and the Holy Quran. The matter is not easy. You waste time in nonsense

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There is no need to be patronising or insulting. I know well the Bible, you patently don't, so best you refrain from such posts, because unless you understand that the Bible by nature of the work is not the same as the Quran. Christians believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, you can look up what that means.

Firstly, the Bible is not just one single book. It is actually a collection of 66 books, which is called the canon of scriptures. These 66 books contain a variety of genres....history, poetry, prophecy, wisdom literature, letters, and apocalyptic just to name a few.
Second, these 66 books were written by 40 different authors. These authors came from a variety of backgrounds.. shepherds, fishermen, doctors, kings, prophets, and others. And most of these authors never knew one another personally. Third, these 66 books were written over a period of 1500 years. Yet again, this is another reason why many of these authors never knew or collaborated with one another in writing these books.
Fourth, the 66 books of the Bible were written in 3 different languages. Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.. a reflection of the historical and cultural circumstances in which each of these books were written.
And finally, these 66 books were written on 3 different continents... Africa, Asia, and Europe. This is a testament to the varied historical and cultural circumstances of God’s people.


Think about the above realities... 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. What’s more, this collection of books shares a common storyline- the creation, fall, and redemption of God’s people, a common theme- God’s universal love for all of humanity, and a common message- salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. In addition to sharing these common themes, these 66 books contain no historical errors or contradictions... Contrary to your belief.

So so before you start criticising the Bible it's you who need understand better what you are criticising, otherwise the claims you make come across as nonsense. I would not criticise the Quran because I do not feel I have the depth of knowledge to do so, besides we are taught to respect the religious beliefs of others. I think the Quran also teaches muslims to be respectful of others beliefs.. At least I believe that is what your Prophet taught.

Peace to you.

Pandora,
1- I am sorry I did not mean to insult you . I respect every one in that Forum whatever his or her religion is . We Muslims believe that there is no God but God . God (praise be to him) taught us that he is the only and unique God of that universe . He has no son , no partner . no one shares him in his kingdom and no one likens him. No one is compared with him . No one had seen him and no one has heard his voice .He was not begotten and he does not beget and that is found in the Holy Bible. Allah (in Arabic) God (in English) says in the Holy Quran :-


In the name of Allah (God ), Most Gracious, Most Mercifu
1. Say: He is Allah, the one and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him. (112/1-4)

2- Allah (praise be to him) is the only God of Adam, Noah, Abraham Jacob, Isaac, Ismail, Mosa, Isa (Jesus) and Mohammad (peace be upon them all).We believe in all prophets and messengers. The Almighty God (praise be to him) sent all these prophets and messengers to guide people to the straight way (which is the only one that guide people to Paradise).To know and worship the only true God of that world.Jesus himself (peace be upon him ) invited you to worship the only true God saying " And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" and this was the same message of all prophets and messengers before Jesus and after him..

3.Christians have deviated from the path of the messengers and prophets and exaggerated in their love to Jesus after Allah (God) has raised him to heaven to save him from Jews. They said he is a son of God and made him God (Heaven forbid ) in trinity and the idea that Allah the great creator of that world (that his heavens and his earth can not expand him) incarnated in the womb of Mary and Mary became the mother of God and he is her God. Also the idea that Jesus came to die on the cross for forgiving the sins of people.And the amazing thing is that all these ideas are not found in the Bible.All these ideas are insult and affront to God . They are the true blasphemy
4- Jesus (peace be upon him) never said that . He is innocent of all that nonsence .He warned you from that saying :- "MAT-15-9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" and Muhammad (peace be upon him) said :- " Do not praise me as Christians praise the son of Mary but say (Muhammad is the slave of Allah and his messenger) . He begged to Allah saying ( Oh my God. do not make my grave an idol worshiped)

5- The Almighty God (pbth) told us to invite people to worship the Only true God saying in the Holy Quran :- '' Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. ( 16/ 125 )
-- In another verses He (praise be to him) said :-
46. And dispute ye not with the people of the Book ( Jews and Christians), except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe In the Revelation which has come down to us and In that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
6- So ,we discuss these matters with you to reach the straight way.We believe in all messengers and prophets of Allah and we make no distinction between them all (peace be upon them all ) . I hope that our God help us all and guide me and you to the straight way . Ameen.Ameen.


"We make no distinction (They say) between one and another of His apostles."

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Pandora,
1- I am sorry I did not mean to insult you . I respect every one in that Forum whatever his or her religion is . We Muslims believe that there is no God but God . God (praise be to him) taught us that he is the only and unique God of that universe . He has no son , no partner . no one shares him in his kingdom and no one likens him. No one is compared with him . No one had seen him and no one has heard his voice .He was not begotten and he does not beget and that is found in the Holy Bible. Allah (in Arabic) God (in English) says in the Holy Quran :-

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Thank you for your gracious apology. I can see it must be difficult for you to accept the beliefs of others when they seem to you so different from your own Islam. Yet funny, I do not see that much that is different in the important point, that of God being ONE. True God is not begotten and God does not beget in the way muslims imply. Christians have never believed Jesus was "begotten" as in human terms, in fact the idea is abhorrent and blasphemous to us and muslims fail to see how deep the hurt goes when you say we believe Jesus was Gods son. Because your belief of what the term means and ours are very different... And know matter how many times a Christian will say you are mistaken in this idea.. Muslims still refuse to understand.

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In the name of Allah (God ), Most Gracious, Most Mercifu

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1. Say: He is Allah, the one and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him. (112/1-4)

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2- Allah (praise be to him) is the only God of Adam, Noah, Abraham Jacob, Isaac, Ismail, Mosa, Isa (Jesus) and Mohammad (peace be upon them all).We believe in all prophets and messengers. The Almighty God (praise be to him) sent all these prophets and messengers to guide people to the straight way (which is the only one that guide people to Paradise).To know and worship the only true God of that world.Jesus himself (peace be upon him ) invited you to worship the only true God saying " And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" and this was the same message of all prophets and messengers before Jesus and after him..

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You say you believe in all the prophets, but really you only believe the ones mentioned in the Quran, which is to be expected. However there are many other prophets who brought revelations. These are not known, and I don't know why the Quran has no great depth to the Biblical prophets it does recognise., because of that lack of depth the greater understanding is lost. If I am honest and did not know the prophets from the Bible and just knew of them from the Quran alone, then I would not recognise what they brought. Jesus in the Quran is like a shadow, there is nothing of his teachings, yet muslims claim to know Jesus better than His actual followers do! I find this remarkable because truly if someone did not tell me that Jesus and Isa were one and the same I would not see any resemblance at all.

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3.Christians have deviated from the path of the messengers and prophets and exaggerated in their love to Jesus after Allah (God) has raised him to heaven to save him from Jews. They said he is a son of God and made him God (Heaven forbid ) in trinity and the idea that Allah the great creator of that world (that his heavens and his earth can not expand him) incarnated in the womb of Mary and Mary became the mother of God and he is her God. Also the idea that Jesus came to die on the cross for forgiving the sins of people.And the amazing thing is that all these ideas are not found in the Bible.All these ideas are insult and affront to God . They are the true blasphemy

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Here you are talking from your own point of view, imposing your truth upon the beliefs of others and because they are not the same view as your own then obviously they are wrong. This is natural, and of course I see evidence from my scriptures which I believe are God given and the teachings of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, tell me, that I am right. I see where you misinterpret the Bible and believe it implies something it does not and you take this for evidence of your truth... But your misunderstanding of something does not prove it wrong. There are many things in Islam that I do not understand, yet I will not say you are wrong.. Because it is not my place to be so arrogant as to tell you what you should believe which maybe different to what Allah has given you to believe. I accept God places us all where He wants us to be, I have faith in His power over evil to ensure that if it feels right then it is right... For each and everyone of us who holds God in the highest esteem.

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4- Jesus (peace be upon him) never said that . He is innocent of all that nonsence .He warned you from that saying :- "MAT-15-9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" and Muhammad (peace be upon him) said :- " Do not praise me as Christians praise the son of Mary but say (Muhammad is the slave of Allah and his messenger) . He begged to Allah saying ( Oh my God. do not make my grave an idol worshiped)

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Here is an example of misunderstanding Bible scripture... You use the words here in Matthew..

"MAT-15-9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

You look at the words and see they suit your purpose but totally ignore the context and as a consequence miss the meaning I urge you to read a more of the verse below and you will see that the words you use Jesus was not applying to Himself, He was quoting Isaiah... These words were from God when he told Prophet Isaiah that the people only worshipped Him with their lips but not with their hearts.. And so they were so far from God because they had put a greater emphasis or their teachings and human rules.


15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”


3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:


8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”


12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”


13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”


15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”


16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

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5- The Almighty God (pbth) told us to invite people to worship the Only true God saying in the Holy Quran :- '' Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. ( 16/ 125 )
-- In another verses He (praise be to him) said :-
46. And dispute ye not with the people of the Book ( Jews and Christians), except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe In the Revelation which has come down to us and In that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
6- So ,we discuss these matters with you to reach the straight way.We believe in all messengers and prophets of Allah and we make no distinction between them all (peace be upon them all ) . I hope that our God help us all and guide me and you to the straight way . Ameen.Ameen.


"We make no distinction (They say) between one and another of His apostles."

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i look at your quotes from the Quran and do not see the first as applying to Jews or Christians because they were already worshipping the One true God, they just did not call Him Allah that is the only difference, and that is no difference at all for that is purely language. I do see it as a message for Mohammed to call pagan unbelievers to the One True God. The second quote seems to imply that you do not need to argue or dispute with us... Could this be because it was recognised that Jews and Christians already had communion with God? Revelation that came down to you and to us and God of all being one and the same. So why all the Dawah? Is it not better to leave such things to God alone and put our trust in Him to keep us on our intended straight way? With this small acceptance of our difference our time could be better spent in gaining a greater understanding of each other, that way there is no need for harshness. With understanding comes tolerance, with tolerance comes peace and I think we can all agree that the world would be a better place for peace.. And of course not forgetting Love which is the greatest requirement of all. .. because it best reflects the nature of Our One True God.

peace upon you, I hope God continues to guide you where He wills.

* You said :" the Bible is not just one single book. It is actually a collection of 66 books, which is called the canon of scriptures. These 66 books contain a variety of genres.
1- Do you believe that all the Bible "the word of God" or the 66 books are attributed to their authors?.
2- Do you believe that the Old Testament and the New Testament are the two parts of the Bible and they are the words of God as all Christians believe ?
3- Are you sure that all the Bibles all over the world 66 books? I think that in the single-family you can see the version of the father is different from the version of the mother and the version of the son is different from the version of the daughter . In my poor knowledge every sect has its own Bible such as:
The Copy of the Protestants is 66 chapters
The copy of the Catholicos is 73 chapters
The copy of the Greek Orthodox is 75 chapters
The copy of the Ethiopian Orthodox is 81 chapters
The copy of the east Orthodox in Eastern Europe is 87 chapters
--- Which of these Bibles is the word of God? Please tell me if you can.Who added and who removed from The Holy Bible?
--- Also there are a lot of verses were removed from " the New International Version" Please read the introduction of the bible and check the verses .Also revise the New Revised Standard Version . You will see a lot of verses that were moved from the Bible because they are not found in the oldest manuscripts.Who added these verses? !!!!!
* You said :" these 66 books were written by 40 different authors over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents And most of these authors never knew one another personally. "
1- Then the Bible is a human made written by 40 authors who do not know each other.That justifies the big mistakes, the terrible contradictions and the scientific errors in the Bible. Do not say that they wrote the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit !!!!!! Why do you say that the Bible is the word of God? I am waiting for you anwer to my questions ......

I will endeavour to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

* You said :" the Bible is not just one single book. It is actually a collection of 66 books, which is called the canon of scriptures. These 66 books contain a variety of genres.
1- Do you believe that all the Bible "the word of God" or the 66 books are attributed to their authors?.

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Christians believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. This is what the Bible claims for itself we have no reason to doubt Gods purpose or question His divine methods. Do you mean were the books penned by the Prophets they are attributed to? Many prophets did pen there own revelation many employed scribes.. Do you believe that if a book is penned by a scribe and not the author directly this somehow effects the content of the book? May I ask what method did Mohammed employ to ensure the scribes recorded his words accurately? Was the whole of the Quran collected together in the form it is today during his lifetime? I'm sure you have no cause to doubt that the scribes that penned the Quran took the utmost care with their work as they believed the work they did was to the glory of God. Why would you suppose any different for the biblical scribes? They also believed their work was to the glory of God.

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2- Do you believe that the Old Testament and the New Testament are the two parts of the Bible and they are the words of God as all Christians believe ?

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I'm not sure I understand your question here. The Old Testament is part of the Jewish scriptures and contain the Torah "laws"the New Testament or Gospel is the account of Jesus the messiah His birth, mission, earthly death and resurrection. We believe they contain the inspired message of God and an historical account of the creation, fall of man and mans redemption a gradual chronological order of the unfolding of Gods plane for mankind. Christians like muslims will at times interpret the same message differently. Yet the core belief is the same.

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3- Are you sure that all the Bibles all over the world 66 books? I think that in the single-family you can see the version of the father is different from the version of the mother and the version of the son is different from the version of the daughter . In my poor knowledge every sect has its own Bible such as:
The Copy of the Protestants is 66 chapters
The copy of the Catholicos is 73 chapters
The copy of the Greek Orthodox is 75 chapters
The copy of the Ethiopian Orthodox is 81 chapters
The copy of the east Orthodox in Eastern Europe is 87 chapters

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your knowledge is not poor in this respect, no doubt you have checked your information above and so you can also easily find out why different branches of Christianity include different numbers of books in their Bible. When you say chapters they are in fact books.. Christians of whatever branch will always have the same 66 books, why some seem to have more books than 66 in common use are because they include the Deuterocanonical or the Apocrypha. These books have always been available they have not been deleted or added, there has been disagreement amongst Biblical Scholars as to weather they contain the inspired word of God. The nature of the books in question and weather they are there or not, does not detract from the message the 66 books in common use tell. Your point about family and different Bibles.. The Bibles are the same they are translations, translations will only differ in minor textual matter which again in no way detracts from the message. You have different translations of the Quran, there may be minor textual differences but again the message remains constant.

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--- Which of these Bibles is the word of God? Please tell me if you can.Who added and who removed from The Holy Bible?
--- Also there are a lot of verses were removed from " the New International Version" Please read the introduction of the bible and check the verses .Also revise the New Revised Standard Version . You will see a lot of verses that were moved from the Bible because they are not found in the oldest manuscripts.Who added these verses? !!!!!

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What constitutes a "lot of verses". If they were not found in the oldest manuscripts then it's right they should be removed. Personally I don't like the King James Version, no doubt he though he was doing a good thing and in a way he was because he brought the bible to people who had not had access to it before. and a chance to own their own copy. He made it his life's work but he did not use original manuscripts but translations. As more knowledge became available then it was revised. I have no idea who moved what when. Do you know about the copies of the Quran the Uthman destroyed? I mean, if all other copies at the time were destroyed how can you be sure something was not left out or the odd word added here or there? This has to come down to faith.. Just as you have faith that Allah protected his word in the Quran I have the same faith that God protects His word in the Bible.

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* You said :" these 66 books were written by 40 different authors over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents And most of these authors never knew one another personally. "
1- Then the Bible is a human made written by 40 authors who do not know each other.That justifies the big mistakes, the terrible contradictions and the scientific errors in the Bible. Do not say that they wrote the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit !!!!!! Why do you say that the Bible is the word of God? I am waiting for you anwer to my questions ......

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The Bible was written by the guidance of the Holy Spirit weather you believe it or not is immaterial. Jesus is Gods eternal word He promised he would send the spirit to guide the apostles to ensure His word reached all mankind, this he did. There are no ...big mistakes, terrible contradictions, scientific errors as you see them to be. We do not say the Bible is the word of God verbatim, as you claim for the Quran. We claim it is the inspired word of God.. Scripture is God breathed we know this and as we know God we trust His word... Jesus Christ.

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your answers. I have many comments on them but I think that we have opened many issues and topics in general.What about if we discuss each individual issue to make the discussion so useful and fruitful for both of us. Of course, you have all right to agree or disagree with all my appreciation and respect.Also you have all right to continue or not continue at any time.I suggest that we start with the issue of the Godhood of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Many years ago, I visited two monasteries in the desert.The Monk gave us a lecture to know the Christian faith.He said directly and explicitly "And we Christian believe that Jesus is our God". In fact, it was a big shock to hear that "so I began to study the Bible.
-- By the way.There is only one version of the Holy Quran in Arabic for more than 1400 years since the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him). You should know that the Holy Quran descended on Muhammad through "Jibril" the angle of Allah throughout 23 years.Some companions of the messengers memorized The Holy Quran by heart.The Holy Quran was written in pottery or some bones or some of skins of animals and was reviewed by Jibril and Muhammad once a year .In the year that the messenger died Jibril reviewed the Quran with him two times.Osman (May Allah be pleased with him ) collected all the Holy Quran in one book . He united the Umma of Islam on one book .On one writing what is called " Osmany drawing " so the Holy Quran is one in every part in that world. .Yes, the Holy Quran was translated into many languages . We Muslims do not call them " the translation of the Holy Quran " because there are differences in translations" but we call them " the translation of the meaning of the Holy Quran" to be more accurately.Thank you and peace on you .

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your answers. I have many comments on them but I think that we have opened many issues and topics in general.What about if we discuss each individual issue to make the discussion so useful and fruitful for both of us. Of course, you have all right to agree or disagree with all my appreciation and respect.Also you have all right to continue or not continue at any time.I suggest that we start with the issue of the Godhood of Jesus (peace be upon him) . Many years ago, I visited two monasteries in the desert.The Monk gave us a lecture to know the Christian faith.He said directly and explicitly "And we Christian believe that Jesus is our God". In fact, it was a big shock to hear that "so I began to study the Bible.

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As you please, I am always agreeable to respectful dialogue with the aim for better mutual understanding. I wish for you to understand that I am not here to win hearts and minds to Christianity.. :) I would not wish to waste my time, as I believe we are all guided by Gods Spirit alone and it is not our place to enforce our beliefs upon others. People followed Jesus by choice He never put people under obligation trusting only in God, I endeavour to follow in His gracious footsteps. I only wish to clarify a Christians belief in their scriptures, as I see many muslims believe many different things about the Christian faith which are not true. I do not see where such views of Christianity that muslims hold today stem from... I do not believe your prophet Mohammed thought thus... And these misconceptions have developed over centuries put forth by misinformed muslims with maybe an agenda of their own.. Who knows it may be a possibility.

I can can understand it would have been a great shock for you to be told so bluntly that we see Jesus as God, I would have hoped the monks would have taken the time to explain why this is so, if they did, then maybe they did not do so as well as they could have or it could just be that it is a concept that a muslim is just not equipped to deal with.. I can appreciate that as it goes against all you have ever been told and is contrary to Islam. I commend you for your study of the Bible, yet without spiritual guidance I feel it a difficult task to come to full understanding as you already must see it from another perspective and it will be impossible for you to not compare it with your accepted truth.. The Quran. I say this because it is what I find personally when reading the Quran... Much does not make sense to me and I find it difficult to see it as a final revelation after the Bible because on so many issues it appears to me to be diametrically opposed to what I know from the Bible. This is a daunting task to make sense for each I feel and that's why I see interfaith dialogue as important to find a common ground where we can exist in friendship.

I will endeavour to answer your queries on the Godhead or divinity of Christ to the best of my ability and understanding. Maybe you would like to start a thread accordingly.

Peace upon you.

Dear Pandora,
1- In the name of Allah the Beneficent and Merciful.I hope that we discuss the matters with all friendliness, respect , candor and clarity.Without any hatred or any arrogance or any despising because we are all the children of Adam and Eve.We always forget that we are all brothers and sisters.The Almighty Allah (praise be to him) created us and made us nations and tribes to know each other.To spread peace among ourselves . This is an appeal declared in the Qur'an. Allah says in the Holy Quran :-
"O mankind! we created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and Tribes, that ye may know Each other (Not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the Most honoured of you In the sight of Allah is (He who is) the Most righteous of you. and Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49/13)
-- This declaration is for all mankind all over the world. The most honoured people in the sight of Allah not the most beautiful or the most interesting or the most wealthy or the strongest no but the most righteous ,pure pious and devout.Allah does not look at our images or shapes but He (pbth) look at our hearts.The righteous people always have pure hearts.They always fear Allah and love all his creatures.
2- Allah (pbth) taught us how to treat with each other and how to spread peace and love with each other . Allah says in the Holy Quran :- " O ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to Each other, nor call Each other by (offensive) nicknames: . seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after He has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 12. O ye who believe! avoid suspicion As much (as possible): for suspicion In some cases is a sin: and spy not on Each other behind their backs. would any of you like to eat the flesh of His dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.(49/11-12)
--- These are some principles that Allah (pbth) taught us .If I do well that is by the grace of Allah and his support.And if I do bad that is by my ignorance and the support of the accursed Satan. Oh my God. Shield us from the evils of ourselves and our bad deeds.
3- As you see Jesus (peace be upon him) as God or a son of God. Please ,Trust me this is a serious saying. Excuse me this is the eye of blasphemy and infidelity .This saying is the biggest insult to the Almighty God .It will never make Jesus (pbuh) happy,on the contrary it makes him very sad and very afraid to the state of his followers that overestimated and exaggerated in his love that they make him God. All evidences in the Bible deny the divinty of Jesus.Please refer to my article under the title " God is one in the Torah,in the Bible and in the Quran.Also track all the sayings of Jesus himself that ends with the phrase " who sent me " .In these sayings he confirmed that he is a messenger of Allah .Allah sent him to guide people to know and worship the only true God of that universe.Please tell me one only verse in the Bible that Jesus said "I am God worship me"
4- I will tell you the opinion of The Holy Quran (the last revelation in that world ) about the phrase "son of God" (and of course you are free to believe or not believe .To read them or not.To say I am not intrested or not)
68. They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son!" - glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things In the heavens and on earth! no warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
69. Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
70. A Little enjoyment In This world!- and then, to us will be their return, then shall we make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.(10/68-70)

88. They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing Most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down In utter ruin,
91. That They should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings In the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most gracious As a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment. (19/88-95)
26. And They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten offspring." glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.
27. They speak not before He speaks, and They act (in all things) by His command.
28. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and They offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and They stand In awe and reverence of His (Glory).
29. If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one we should reward with Hell: Thus do we reward those who do wrong. (21/26-29)

to be continued

5- Also I will tell you what the Holy Quran said about trinity and the saying " Jesus is God". The Almighty Allah (pbth) confirms that Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet as all prophets that Allah sent to mankind to guide them to way of Allah.Allah said in the Holy Quran :-


A) - 171. O people of the Book! Commit no excesses In your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the Truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe In Allah and His apostles. say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. glory be to him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. to Him belong all things In the heavens and on earth. and Enough is Allah As a disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah.: those who Disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).(4/171-172)

B) -- 77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not In your Religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong In times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Even way.(5/77)

C) -- 75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before Him. His mother was a woman of Truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. see How Allah doth make His Signs Clear to them; yet see In what ways They are deluded away from the truth!
76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? but Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."(5/75-76)
--- Jesus was a messenger and his mother was pure and righteous.They were eating food and that means that they were humans.Jesus is not God because God never eat or drink or sleep or die and so on.

D) -- 17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, His mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? for to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. for Allah hath power over all things."(5/17)
--- The saying " Jesus is god " is the eye of blasphemy . There in no God but God.He is the only true God of that universe.

E) --72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." but said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, My Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid Him the garden, and the Fire will be His abode. there will for the wrong-doers be no one to help (5/72)
--- Jesus said in the Bible " my God and your God. He invited his followers to know and worship the only true God who sent him to people.


F) --73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three In a Trinity: for there is no god except one Allah. if They desist not from their word (of blasphemy), Verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
74. Why turn They not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful. (5/73-74)

--- Allah (pbth) told us that the following dialouge will be happen between the Almighty Allah and Jesus (pbuh) in the day of resurrection.Allah (pbth) will ask Jesus if he told his followers that he is a god and his mother (and Allah knows everything but He wants his followers to hear Jesus' answers).In that day every messenger will be the witness of his people . And we all will stand in front of the Almighty Allah alone .Allah says in the Holy Quran :-

G)--116. And Behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst Thou say unto men, worship me and My mother As gods In derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou Knowest what is In My heart, Thou I know not what is In Thine. for Thou Knowest In full all that is hidden.
117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou Didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, My Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou Didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118. "If Thou dost punish them, They are Thy servant: if Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted In power, the Wise."
119. Allah will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them, and They with Allah. that is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). (5/116-119)

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Dear Pandora,
1- In the name of Allah the Beneficent and Merciful.I hope that we discuss the matters with all friendliness, respect , candor and clarity.Without any hatred or any arrogance or any despising because we are all the children of Adam and Eve.We always forget that we are all brothers and sisters.The Almighty Allah (praise be to him) created us and made us nations and tribes to know each other.To spread peace among ourselves . This is an appeal declared in the Qur'an. Allah says in the Holy Quran :-
"O mankind! we created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and Tribes, that ye may know Each other (Not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the Most honoured of you In the sight of Allah is (He who is) the Most righteous of you. and Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49/13)
-- This declaration is for all mankind all over the world. The most honoured people in the sight of Allah not the most beautiful or the most interesting or the most wealthy or the strongest no but the most righteous ,pure pious and devout.Allah does not look at our images or shapes but He (pbth) look at our hearts.The righteous people always have pure hearts.They always fear Allah and love all his creatures.
2- Allah (pbth) taught us how to treat with each other and how to spread peace and love with each other . Allah says in the Holy Quran :- " O ye who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to Each other, nor call Each other by (offensive) nicknames: . seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after He has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong. 12. O ye who believe! avoid suspicion As much (as possible): for suspicion In some cases is a sin: and spy not on Each other behind their backs. would any of you like to eat the flesh of His dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.(49/11-12)
--- These are some principles that Allah (pbth) taught us .If I do well that is by the grace of Allah and his support.And if I do bad that is by my ignorance and the support of the accursed Satan. Oh my God. Shield us from the evils of ourselves and our bad deeds.
3- As you see Jesus (peace be upon him) as God or a son of God. Please ,Trust me this is a serious saying. Excuse me this is the eye of blasphemy and infidelity .This saying is the biggest insult to the Almighty God .It will never make Jesus (pbuh) happy,on the contrary it makes him very sad and very afraid to the state of his followers that overestimated and exaggerated in his love that they make him God. All evidences in the Bible deny the divinty of Jesus.Please refer to my article under the title " God is one in the Torah,in the Bible and in the Quran.Also track all the sayings of Jesus himself that ends with the phrase " who sent me " .In these sayings he confirmed that he is a messenger of Allah .Allah sent him to guide people to know and worship the only true God of that universe.Please tell me one only verse in the Bible that Jesus said "I am God worship me"
4- I will tell you the opinion of The Holy Quran (the last revelation in that world ) about the phrase "son of God" (and of course you are free to believe or not believe .To read them or not.To say I am not intrested or not)
68. They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son!" - glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things In the heavens and on earth! no warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
69. Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
70. A Little enjoyment In This world!- and then, to us will be their return, then shall we make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.(10/68-70)

88. They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing Most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down In utter ruin,
91. That They should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings In the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most gracious As a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment. (19/88-95)
26. And They say: "((Allah)) Most gracious has begotten offspring." glory to Him! They are (but) servants raised to honour.
27. They speak not before He speaks, and They act (in all things) by His command.
28. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and They offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and They stand In awe and reverence of His (Glory).
29. If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one we should reward with Hell: Thus do we reward those who do wrong. (21/26-29)

to be continued

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Dear friend, you have given so much information here I'm not sure what it is you wish me to address. Or indeed if you are even interested in my point of view as to why a Christian believes as we do, it seems like muslims feel Christians have arrived by chance at an understanding of Gods message and we sort of make it up as we will.... This is not so. God placed us where God wants us to be, God gave us His truth through His Word.. Christ Jesus. We need to be clear about that. It appears to me that it is your intention to attempt to prove this Word God gave us is false, or even more incredible has been changed. On the first point I question... Why would God give us His Word which was not true to His divine being? On the second point I would ask... Why would God allow low men to change His Word? Either scenario I have difficulty ascribing to a Holy God, and my view is God is indeed Holy above all.

On your point of Gods declaration in regards to mankind... We can concur agreement here. As the Bible says the exact same thing. Christians may take it further in believing that the physical body is not as important to God than our soul, after all our body is purely a vehicle for our soul until such time as it returns to God. This body is a great gift, so of course we should be duty bound to keep ourselves fit and healthy so we are able to serve God in the best way. Maybe that is why we have less regulation in such matters as dress etc. for we do not see what clothes we wear have any baring on the state of our soul.

In regards to Jesus and His divinity, your answers are of course from your own Islamic perspective... Only natural.. And obviously.. Again only natural.. I do not see how they apply. As it seems clear from your quotes from the Quran, Christians have never viewed the son ship of Jesus in the way the Quran describes, which in itself is odd... If God was referring to Christians, then God as omniscient would know the hearts truth of what we believe.

Christians believe as the Bible and Jesus Himself through His words and actions taught.. Jesus Christ is the Son of God become human. By Son.. We do NOT mean biological son as we apply to human relationships and all that entails. Such belief is blasphemy of the worst kind. Jesus is truly a human being, our brother. He was born to a human mother, grew up and matured, learnt a trade, suffered hunger and thirst, displayed joy and compassion, anxiety and anger. He was a human being with body and soul – truly one of us, close to us. We see Jesus as same in essence as God the father... Jesus taught that His relationship was different with God the father as our relationship was with God. By Gods action through His Word Jesus, we the whole of humanity is healed by His love for us.

The Incarnation and the divinity of Jesus are a central theme in the Christian faith. For Christians, the doctrine of the Incarnation does not mean the deification of a man. Rather, in the Incarnation the eternal Word of God takes on a human nature and so becomes a human being. The expression Son of God serves as a pointer to the divine origin of Jesus and to the fact that in Jesus God has made himself present to humanity in a unique way. It is not a biological statement, such as would make of God a parent in the ordinary human sense. The church has always maintained that God neither begets nor is begotten... This corresponds to Quran which also says the same... Although I'm not sure that the context of this verse in the Quran refers to Christians and their beliefs.. It could refer to Meccan polytheism, which did attribute biological procreation to God, and seeing as Mohammed's message was aimed at the Meccan's initially it seems reasonable to suppose it was meant at them.


It remains central for Christian faith that the Son of God is one of us, with all that that entails, sin excepted. Jesus is therefore both divine and human in one person. You as a Muslim will never be able to accept this and I see even this must be difficult for you to read, yet, sometimes one has to face difficult things and even though you are unable totally to accept this, you should at least be able to see that to a Christian it makes perfect sense.. Because Gods Spirit assures us so. In truth Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that is fully human, with a human soul and a human will, so that through his obedient humanity he could redeem our humanity, and yet also fully God, of one substance with the Father. Divinity and humanity are united in essence and purpose. This in no way detracts from the greatness of God, or the Oneness of God. The Bible and Jesus are also clear on the Oneness of God the Father, and indeed there is nothing comparable to Him.

In regards to Weather Jesus making or not making the claim "I am God worship me" is largely irrelevant. No where in the Bible does Jesus say these exact words, yet no where in the Bible does Jesus say he is not God and do not worship me. Sometimes words are not as strong as actions, there are many instances where Jesus accepted worship, and acted with authority in matters where it was accepted that such authority belonged to God alone.

My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed. How the Quran represents the opinions of Christian belief at worse is in error at best it could only apply to a few gnostic sects found in that part of the world at that time. I cannot understand this. If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing. I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam. I feel I have to be honest here, and to be honest sometimes one has to be blunt.

Peace and blessings to you.

Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your message . I will start where you have ended. You said:" I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam." .Please, No apology. We have agreed to speak frankly and clearly and without any sensitivity or any critical
1- You said : " My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed" and you think that "If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing."
--- The matter is not as you think. Allah (pbth) desended The Torah and The Bible to guide people to the true faith and worship the only true God who created me and you all that world . But the followers of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon both of them) did not keep these revelations well . As a result there is no original revelation of these Holy Books now and some humans (excuse me ) messed with these books, they added to and deleted from them according to their fancy ( there is an evidence from the Quran ).So The Almighty Allah descended the Holy Quran and pledged to save it till the day of resurrection.Allah said in the Quran :- " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and we will Assuredly guard it (from corruption).(15/9). So there is only one book all over the world. Muslims all over the world are uttering the Quran as it was descended on the messenger of Allah. The Holy Quran came down to correct the errors that have occurred due to human deeds.
---- For an example only to what I wrote :
** In the Old Testament Exo 20/11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". This is the wrong image of Allah the creator of that universe.Allah says : "There is nothing whatever like unto him, and He is the one that hears and sees (All things)".(42/11) and there is a verse like that completely in the Bible. Allah never feel tired that He (pbth) take a rest . That is an insult to The Almighty Allah .So Allah said in the Holy Quran :- "38. We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us.(50/38) .I ask you which of the two verses befitting the dignity and the sanctity and greatness of the Almighty God ? Also the image of most prophets is very bad .Does Allah chose fornicator prophets in order to call people to virtue .The image of David (peace be upon him) in the Torah is a shameful image but in the Quran David is a pure ,rightouse and obedient prophet.All prophets and messengers of Allah are the stars of that universe.They are models for us to be followed (peace be upon them all )
** In the Bible John 1(5/7-8) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
-- Priests used to use these verses to prove "trinity". Now the phrase " three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:' was deleted from all translated versions all over the world and it is found only in all Arabic versions and in King James version. Peace and blessing to you and to all our brothers and sisters all over that vast world and may Allah (God) guide us all to the right way.Ameen,Ameen.


To be continued

المحترم عثمان أحمد الشيخ جزاك الله كل خير

--- If they ( the father,the word and the Holy Ghost ) were deleted from the Bible because they were not found in the oldest manuscript.That means that someones added them to the Bible purposely to market for' trinity" or to show the legitimacy of trinity .I think there is no other justification for that according to my minor thought.Perhaps your point of view is smarter than mine.
--- The current versions says :
New international reader's version7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree

New international version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

New revised Standard version
7 There are three that testify:[b] 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

New American Standard Version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [k]in agreement

2- You always say " God placed us where God wants us to be, " . This saying is not true .It is called in language " The justification with fate and destiny". The theif can say that phrase to justify the theft "God placed me where he wants me to be" " If he wanted me to be honest he would do that"Then he is a theif accoding to the will of God ( God forbid) Also the atheist and the polytheist or the infidel can say that " God placed me where he wants me to be".This is the will of Allah (God fobid ) . Allah does not satisfy infidelity or evil for his slaves. In the past some polytheist said that Justification and Allah did not accept their justification and considered them liars.
148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would Our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." so did their ancestors argue falsely, until They tasted of Our Wrath. say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? if so, produce it before us. ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."(6/148)
-- Allah also says "7. If ye reject ((Allah)), truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not blasphemy from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your return, when He will Tell you the truth of all that ye did (in This life). for He knoweth well all that is In (men's) hearts.(39/7) Thank you dear Pandora.

to be continued

أخي الكريم هشيم
أشكرك شكرا جزيلا علي كملماتكم الرقيقة .وارجوا أن تكون بخير أنت والاسرة الكريمة .والحمد لله علي نعمة الاسلام .وعلي نعمة القرآن المعجز. وعلي نعمة أن نكون من أتباع محمد صلي الله عليه وسلم .ذلك النبي الذي أنارالله به الكون وأنار به الله قلوب المؤمنين .
أرجوا أخي الكريم أن تتفضل علي وتعلمني كيف اقتبس من موضوع أكثر من اقتباس .حيث أجهل ذلك ولك شكري العميق . والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته..

استاذ المحترم عثمان أحمد الشيخ
جزاكم الله كل خير لما تقدمونه للأسلام و المسلمين ....و بارك الله فيكم....
و جعل الله حياتك سعادة و فرحا انت و احبتك..... و امد الله من عمركم في طاعته و خدمة دينه..

لا تشكرني يا استاذ على اي شيء....
اساعدك قدر ما أشاء....

انا عندما اريد ان ارد على فقرة او بعض السطور اقوم بتحديد السطور او الفقرة (او النص المراد اقتباسه) و نسخه ثم لصقه في خانة الرد و من ثم مجددا تحديده و النقرة على ايكونة الاقتباس في شريط الايكونات و ستحصل على ما تريد باذن الله.. و هكذا تستسطع ان تقوم بنسخ و لصق اي نصر تريد ثم تحديده و اقتباسبه بواسطة ايكونةن الاقتباس و الرد على النصوص منفصلا عن بعضهم...

اتمنى اني قد ساعدتكم ....


و هذه الصورة اكثر توضيحا...


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اشكرك أخي الكريم علي تعاونك ومساعدتك لي ولكني الحقيقة لا أري ايقونة الاقتباس التي أشرت اليها . فهي غير موجودة ضمن الايقونات . لك شكري وتقديري . أخوك عثمان .

Dear Pandora,
3- You said : " Christians have never viewed the son ship of Jesus in the way the Quran describes, which in itself is odd... If God was referring to Christians, then God as omniscient would know the hearts truth of what we believe." Of course.the knowledge of Allah is not limited as our knowledge .Allah (pbth) knows the intention of every one .He knows our secrets and our declared deeds.Allah said :- " It was we who created man, and we know what dark suggestions His soul makes to him: for we are nearer to Him than (His) jugular vein". 17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left. 18. Not a word does He utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it) (50/16-18)".Then Allah descended the verses that talked about Christians and He knows completely their thoughts and what goes on in their chests and hearts about the son of God and trinity .
4- In all Holy Books Allah declares himself as a God and that he created the heavens and the earth .He speaks how he created man and he only who feeds him and gives him water and so on . Did Jesus declared that .Who said these sayings :
1) " ISA-46-9: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me
2) ISA-46-5: To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
3) JER-10-6: Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
4) ISA-40-18: To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
5) ISA-40-25: To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
--- Is he the only true God that Jesus worshipped or Jesus or the Holy spirit ?
--- Who did Ibraham and Mosses worship? Is he the father or the son of gpd or the holy spirit?
--- Who created heavens and land ?
5- I noticed that you did not quote any evidences from the Bible . Trinity , the incarnate God , The Hypostasis are not found in the Bible.So the question is . From where do you take your faith ? Please , in every discussion give me evidences from the Bible .
Excuse me Pandora.peace be to you and may the only true God lead me and you to the right way.

اقتباس:

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اشكرك أخي الكريم علي تعاونك ومساعدتك لي ولكني الحقيقة لا أري ايقونة الاقتباس التي أشرت اليها . فهي غير موجودة ضمن الايقونات . لك شكري وتقديري . أخوك عثمان

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تفضل يا استاذ المحترم عثمان

مكان يايكونة الاقتباس في منتديات ابن مريم الاسلامية ...

لك كل احترامي و تقديري و بارك الله فيك
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أشكرك أخي الفاضل الكريم وأسأل الله أن يعينك علي مهمتك .وأن يجعلها في ميزان حسناتك في يوم لاينفع فيه مال ولابنين .إلا من أتي الله بقلب سليم .وتقبل تحياتي واحترامي.

[QUOTE=عثمان أحمد الشيخ;590189]Dear Pandora,
Thank you for your message . I will start where you have ended. You said:" I apologise if my words seem harsh and I really do not wish to cause offence but I am trying to answer your questions whilst also trying to let you see my doubts about Islam." .Please, No apology. We have agreed to speak frankly and clearly and without any sensitivity or any critical
1- You said : " My main issue with the Quran is to some extent it's misrepresentation of the beliefs of both Christians and to similar extent the Jews. These beliefs were then as they are now and long set in canons hundreds of years before the Quran was revealed" and you think that "If the Quran was meant to be a final "instalment" or an "update" of what went before then I would expect it to have a more definitive idea of what it is replacing."

اقتباس:

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--- The matter is not as you think. Allah (pbth) desended The Torah and The Bible to guide people to the true faith and worship the only true God who created me and you all that world . But the followers of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon both of them) did not keep these revelations well . As a result there is no original revelation of these Holy Books now and some humans (excuse me ) messed with these books, they added to and deleted from them according to their fancy ( there is an evidence from the Quran ).So The Almighty Allah descended the Holy Quran and pledged to save it till the day of resurrection.Allah said in the Quran :- " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and we will Assuredly guard it (from corruption).(15/9). So there is only one book all over the world. Muslims all over the world are uttering the Quran as it was descended on the messenger of Allah. The Holy Quran came down to correct the errors that have occurred due to human deeds.

---

This thing you say is very difficult to accept. Muslims always make this same claim about the Bible message being lost or changed, yet can offer no conclusive proof of this, as to why 1- Jews and Christians would wish to change what they revered as the word of their Holy God. Especially as dire punishment awaits any who dare to change Gods message. There are many warnings of such. Would they be crazy for doing such a thing???

Revelation 22:18-19 says, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

2 - who made these changes? And why were these changes made? And when exactly were these changes made? And what verses in the Bible were changed?

3- Mohammed told Jews and Christians to judge by their scriptures, that was the Torah and the Gospel... If God told Mohammed to tell the Jews and Christians to judge thus.. Why would God be content for Jews and Christians to refer to their scriptures if God knew they were corrupted to the extent of sending a new and completely different revelation? There are other points on this theme that do not make sense to me but I will leave it there.

اقتباس:

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---- For an example only to what I wrote :
** In the Old Testament Exo 20/11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". This is the wrong image of Allah the creator of that universe.Allah says : "There is nothing whatever like unto him, and He is the one that hears and sees (All things)".(42/11) and there is a verse like that completely in the Bible. Allah never feel tired that He (pbth) take a rest . That is an insult to The Almighty Allah .So Allah said in the Holy Quran :- "38. We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch us.(50/38) .I ask you which of the two verses befitting the dignity and the sanctity and greatness of the Almighty God ?

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Here you misunderstand. When Exodus states God "rested" it does not mean God had exhausted His energy, that is a ridiculous notion. The day of rest, as the verse states refers to the Sabbath. No work was done on the sabbath that day was for God alone. God was setting a precedent for mankind that we toil for six days but the seventh we rest and keep holy. How you ascribe something as an insult to God something that God Himself ordained for us I don't understand. Surely muslims keep their sabbath day Holy? You say the Quran claims ....We created the heavens and the earth and all between them In six days, ... What pray does the Quran say God did on the seventh day? If it were not the Muslim sabbath. I do not see any difference between the two verses in regards to ascribing dignity and sanctity and greatness to God, only in your misunderstanding of Exodus, I feel most objections in regards to the Bible stems from misunderstanding..

اقتباس:

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Also the image of most prophets is very bad .Does Allah chose fornicator prophets in order to call people to virtue .The image of David (peace be upon him) in the Torah is a shameful image but in the Quran David is a pure ,rightouse and obedient prophet.All prophets and messengers of Allah are the stars of that universe.They are models for us to be followed (peace be upon them all )

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No, the image of the prophets is accurate and true. There is nothing shameful in an accurate portrayal of a man if it shows his strengths and weaknesses. For that's what they were, the prophets.... Men and women, human, and as such prone to the normal human weaknesses that it is our human condition to be. All were sinners and in need of God, Jesus was the only sinless being to walk the earth. Prophets were not chosen by God because they were special it was through being chosen that made them special. The Bible shows that if even prophets of God do sin and need Gods redemption then how much more do we need God. We learn important lessons that we all for short of Gods magnificent glory and we are all in need of His gracious mercy and forgiveness... Even prophets.. Even Mohammed had occasion to appeal to God for forgiveness. I feel by portraying the biblical prophets that the Quran recognises as perfect examples of humanity does them a great disservice, because if they were human men and women then it is impossible for them to be pure, they can strive to be both obedient and righteous but knowing they may fail and so are reliant on God as we all are is a greater lesson for us all to learn.

اقتباس:

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** In the Bible John 1(5/7-8) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
-- Priests used to use these verses to prove "trinity". Now the phrase " three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:' was deleted from all translated versions all over the world and it is found only in all Arabic versions and in King James version. Peace and blessing to you and to all our brothers and sisters all over that vast world and may Allah (God) guide us all to the right way.Ameen,Ameen.

To be continued

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If this was the only instance where the concept of the trinity was to be found in the Bible then you may have some kind of point. It isn't here are a few...

John 17:20-23 ESV
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.


John 15:26 ESV
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Luke 1:35 ESV
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.


John 14:16-17 ESV
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.


John 1:1-51 ESV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.



John 10:30-36 ESV
I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

John 1:14 ESV
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Matthew 28:19 ESV
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Peace

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

--- If they ( the father,the word and the Holy Ghost ) were deleted from the Bible because they were not found in the oldest manuscript.That means that someones added them to the Bible purposely to market for' trinity" or to show the legitimacy of trinity .I think there is no other justification for that according to my minor thought.Perhaps your point of view is smarter than mine.
--- The current versions says :
New international reader's version7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree

New international version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

New revised Standard version
7 There are three that testify:[b] 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

New American Standard Version
7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are [k]in agreement

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Its not about deletion it's about interpretation. The Spirit and the water and the blood refers to the concept of the trinity. At least this is from my understanding. I am not a theologian so my view is from a lay person. I expect you will find my answer on this unsatisfactory but I'm afraid it is all I have as far as my knowledge goes.

اقتباس:

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2- You always say " God placed us where God wants us to be, " . This saying is not true .It is called in language " The justification with fate and destiny". The theif can say that phrase to justify the theft "God placed me where he wants me to be" " If he wanted me to be honest he would do that"Then he is a theif accoding to the will of God ( God forbid) Also the atheist and the polytheist or the infidel can say that " God placed me where he wants me to be".This is the will of Allah (God fobid ) . Allah does not satisfy infidelity or evil for his slaves. In the past some polytheist said that Justification and Allah did not accept their justification and considered them liars.

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I see what you mean, and of course anyone can make this claim... Like they also say "the devil made me do it" well, of course it is easy to "blame" another rather than take responsibility for ones actions. But I did not mean it like that. God places people where He wishes them to be when it comes to knowledge and understanding of Him and how we fit within His family. God gives us free will to choose how best to achieve that. An atheist, polytheist or infidel !!! Can say such but as they lack faith in God then their words are empty and mean nothing. God abhors evil this is obvious. God does not act against His nature and therefore will not guide people astray. Christians are not slaves, we are children of God, humble servants but never slaves. How do you know what Allah accepts as justification or who he considers liars?

اقتباس:

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148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would Our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." so did their ancestors argue falsely, until They tasted of Our Wrath. say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? if so, produce it before us. ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."(6/148)
-- Allah also says "7. If ye reject ((Allah)), truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not blasphemy from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your return, when He will Tell you the truth of all that ye did (in This life). for He knoweth well all that is In (men's) hearts.(39/7) Thank you dear Pandora.

to be continued

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Yes, I will concur and agree that God knows well what is in our hearts, there is no hiding. I am not afraid.
May God bless you and continue to guide you.

اقتباس:

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Here you misunderstand. When Exodus states God "rested" it does not mean God had exhausted His energy, that is a ridiculous notion. The day of rest, as the verse states refers to the Sabbath.

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Dear Pandora,
-- The text is clear but I will leave that with the explanation of St. Augustine who said :" the rest is the rest of those who rest in Allah". But who changed the word of God "Saturday" by "Sunday" (Human or God)

اقتباس:

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No, the image of the prophets is accurate and true. There is nothing shameful in an accurate portrayal of a man if it shows his strengths and weaknesses. For that's what they were, the prophets.... Men and women, human

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-- This interpretation is comman between all Christians.If you want to choose a teacher to teach your children boys and girls , will you choose any one ? or there must be certain qualities? such as respect , good manners,patience , science and good dressing.He will be a model to your Children. Do you as a human (who has limited knowledge) use your mind , wisdom and intelligence to choose a teacher and The Almighty Allah who is full of wisdom and knowledge ,who is well acpuainted with all things choose fornicated prophets to guide people to Allah and be models to all people.Is that logical ?. Are not there humans who are righteous,pure and pious in that world.? Yes , humans commit sins but messengers and prophets never commit high sins as killing, theft or adultery .So we deny all thses dirty things on prophets and messengers. In fact you give infallibility to priests and and deny it for prophets and messengers.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will complete in another message.

to be contiued

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Dear Pandora,
-- The text is clear but I will leave that with the explanation of St. Augustine who said :" the rest is the rest of those who rest in Allah". But who changed the word of God "Saturday" by "Sunday" (Human or God)

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I should maybe wait for your next post, however I will respond thus far.

Where did God state which day was to be the sabbath? God says six days we work on the seventh it is reserved for God. Most Christians equate "Lord's Day" ( Sunday) with "Sabbath", this is kept in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ, it is often celebrated with the Eucharist. For many it is the day of rest, and of communal worship in remembrance of Resurrection Day. The sabbath for Jews begins on Friday and ends on Saturday, generally thought of as the last day of the week. Sunday being considered both the first day and the last. Do muslims observe a sabbath? If so what day? Friday? In a period of seven days one of those days is to be observed as the sabbath.. Which is totally reserved for God. As to who decided which day it is to be is immaterial the main issue is that we reserve one day out of seven as a sabbath.

اقتباس:

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-- This

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اقتباس:

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interpretation is comman between all Christians.If you want to choose a teacher to teach your children boys and girls , will you choose any one ? or there must be certain qualities? such as respect , good manners,patience , science and good dressing.He will be a model to your Children. Do you as a human (who has limited knowledge) use your mind , wisdom and intelligence to choose a teacher and The Almighty Allah who is full of wisdom and knowledge ,who is well acpuainted with all things choose fornicated prophets to guide people to Allah and be models to all people.Is that logical ?. Are not there humans who are righteous,pure and pious in that world.? Yes , humans commit sins but messengers and prophets never commit high sins as killing, theft or adultery .So we deny all thses dirty things on prophets and messengers. In fact you give infallibility to priests and and deny it for prophets and messengers.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will complete in another message.

to be contiued

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Dirty things!!!! What do you mean by this? Human nature...? Are prophets considered to be more than human then? What do you mean by high sins please? A sin is a sin before a Holy God, there are no big sin or small sin .. Only sin.. And all sin is an affront to God.

Outward appearance of good manners, patience, nice clothes and kind demeanour are not evidence of a pious person. Do not forget satan is the master of deception and lies... Satan can easily masquerade as a paragon of virtue to achieve his aim. You are of course free to see the prophets as somehow super human and above all temptation, but that view can not be real, as if they are human then they are prone to sin and you ignore that to your own peril.

Priests are men, as such they are sinners. Where on earth do you get the idea that they are infallible? They are not, they are human so cannot be infallible. They have never been viewed as such. The only sinless person to ever walk the earth Christians will recognise is Jesus. The Quran agrees that Jesus was without sin does it not? Every other being from Adam onwards with the exception of Jesus is a sinner and in need of Gods redemption.

Maybe we view sin differently.

peace to you.

Dear Pandora,

اقتباس:

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* God abhors evil this is obvious. God does not act against His nature and therefore will not guide people astray.

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-- By the way God is called " Allah" in The Holy Bible and in the Holy Quran in all Arabian versions , in all Arabian countries. All Christians and Muslims say "Allah" not God. Allah (pbth) created us free to believe or not believe. If Allah wanted all people of that world to worship him only ,he would have forced them to do that and that is very easy for him. But Allah wanted his creatures to come to him voluntarily with all love and satisfaction. Allah said in the Holy Quran :
29. Say, "The truth is from your Lord": let Him who believe, and let Him who will, reject (it) (18/29)
256. Let there be no compulsion In religion: truth stands out Clear from error: Whoever rejects evil and believes In Allah hath grasped the Most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. and Allah heareth and knoweth all things.(2/256)
-- Allah (pbth) sent prophets and messengers one after other to teach people the way of astray and the straight way.Also he descended his Holy Books to be constitution for them and gave them the freedom to choose their way .He granted them the grace of mind In order to distinguish between right and wrong. Wheat from the chaff..They have to use these graces to choose but he said :
3. We showed Him the way: whether He be grateful or ungrateful (rests on His Will).
4. For the rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a Blazing Fire.
5. As to the righteous, They shall drink of a cup mixed with Kafur,-(76/2-5)
-- He (pbth) also said: 15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for His own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to His own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would we visit with Our wrath until we had sent an apostle (to give warning) (17/15)
-- Then every one is responsible for himself and should bear the result of his deeds in that world although He (pbth) can guide who he wants to astray or to straight way . Allah is not unjust to his slaves (or his servants as you like).

اقتباس:

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* Christians are not slaves, we are children of God, humble servants but never slaves. How do you know what Allah accepts as justification or who he considers liars?

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-- You say that you are children of God . Why do you claim that Jesus is God because they called him "the son of God" equals completely what you said that you are the child of God .Is there any differences beteen the two phrases? Why did not you call "Adam" God as he is a son of god in the Bible and he does not have a father or a mother ?
Why did not you call Soloman or Israel or David Gods although they are sons of God in the Bible?
Why did not you call peacemakers Gods athough they are sons of God in the Bible? (Mat 5/9)
Why did not you call those who are led by the spirit of God (Gods) although they are sons of God in the Bible (the exambles are many )
-- Is this son-ship actually or metaphorically ? I think they never be actually.What is your point of view ?
--- You said " Christians are not slaves" " humble servants but never slaves."
I appreciate the sensitivity of the word slave . In fact it is written "slave" in the Arabic Bible and in the Quran too. The slavery to human is a state of humiliation and indignity but the slavery to the Almihgty Allah is pride, dignity and sublimity. The messenger of Allah said :" Those who humble themselves to Allah , Allah will lift them".(means Allah will lift their values and bring them closer to him (pbth) .
-- In fact we are proud that the Almighty Allah is our Beneficent and Merciful Master. We Muslims are proud that we are slaves of that great and dignity Holy master .He is more beneficent and more merciful than our fathers and mothers. No human master in that world equals him in his compassion , generosity and tender. Have you ever seen a master feeds his slave if he is hungry , drinks him if he is thirsty ,heals him if he is ill, grants him housing ,wife and children as he had granted him before mind , eyes ,ears, one tongue and two leps.hands ,legs. Allah says in the Holy Quran : 34. And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. but if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.(14/34)
-- Dear Pandora, be humble and modest to Allah and be good slave to Good Master . Mohammad (pbuh) taught us to call him "the slave of Allah and him messenger "Jesus (pbuh) was a model of the great slave to Allah . He used to pray prostrating to Allah ,putting his face on the dust begging to the Almighty God asking him what he wants with all humbly and love. The Holy Bible says :
A) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.(Mat26/39)
B) And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.(Mar 14/35)
C) And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.(Lu 6/12)
--- To whom was Jesus putting his face in dust praying ? to his God and our God or to himself? To whom was he begging to pass the cup from him? I think that he was praying to the only true God that he sent him to mankind .The God that no one saw him or heard his voice .Is he god .Have you ever heard about god who puts his face on dust asking other to help him? little mind Please.
Thank you and may Allah guide me and you to the straight way.Peace be with you and your family.

اقتباس:

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المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة عثمان أحمد الشيخ

Dear Pandora,

-- By the way God is called " Allah" in The Holy Bible and in the Holy Quran in all Arabian versions , in all Arabian countries. All Christians and Muslims say "Allah" not God. Allah (pbth) created us free to believe or not believe. If Allah wanted all people of that world to worship him only ,he would have forced them to do that and that is very easy for him. But Allah wanted his creatures to come to him voluntarily with all love and satisfaction. Allah said in the Holy Quran :
29. Say, "The truth is from your Lord": let Him who believe, and let Him who will, reject (it) (18/29)
256. Let there be no compulsion In religion: truth stands out Clear from error: Whoever rejects evil and believes In Allah hath grasped the Most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. and Allah heareth and knoweth all things.(2/256)
-- Allah (pbth) sent prophets and messengers one after other to teach people the way of astray and the straight way.Also he descended his Holy Books to be constitution for them and gave them the freedom to choose their way .He granted them the grace of mind In order to distinguish between right and wrong. Wheat from the chaff..They have to use these graces to choose but he said :
3. We showed Him the way: whether He be grateful or ungrateful (rests on His Will).
4. For the rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a Blazing Fire.
5. As to the righteous, They shall drink of a cup mixed with Kafur,-(76/2-5)
-- He (pbth) also said: 15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for His own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to His own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would we visit with Our wrath until we had sent an apostle (to give warning) (17/15)
-- Then every one is responsible for himself and should bear the result of his deeds in that world although He (pbth) can guide who he wants to astray or to straight way . Allah is not unjust to his slaves (or his servants as you like).

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Of course God is known as Allah by Christians living in Arab lands. Allah is an Arabic word for God, why would this be unusual? Yet, you may understand when they pray to their Allah they have in their minds YHWH, God of the Bible, they pray the same way as Christians worldwide pray, whichever language used the prayers are the same. I have no issue with the term Allah for God as long as you mean it is the same God as YHWH, the same God as all the prophets knew. If you prefer I can use the term Allah instead of God if you are more comfortable with that.

Yes, I agree that Allah grants us grace to choose freely to accept Him as he has revealed Himself to us or to reject Him the gain or loss is for our own choice to make. There is no compulsion. So it would be better to desist from Dawah and instead respect the choice of others to accept God/Allah that has been revealed to them. God wishes us to come to Him through love because worship offered from any other standpoint is empty and worthless. What use to God/Allah prayers from hearts devoid of love? This is obvious for all to understand regardless of religion.

Christians see prophets as having a greater role than simply showing us a right path. As I see it Islam is about the seeking of God/Allah... Christianity is about God/Allah seeking to establish community and relationship with mankind, which was always the intention for mankind before the fall of Adam changed our direction. God has shown how this is possible through the Christ. You have chosen a different path, I can hope and pray for you that it is the right path and I truly believe that God shows mercy and compassion for all who worship Him from sincere hearts and from love.

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-- You say that you are children of God . Why do you claim that Jesus is God because they called him "the son of God" equals completely what you said that you are the child of God .Is there any differences beteen the two phrases? Why did not you call "Adam" God as he is a son of god in the Bible and he does not have a father or a mother ?

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Why did not you call Soloman or Israel or David Gods although they are sons of God in the Bible?
Why did not you call peacemakers Gods athough they are sons of God in the Bible? (Mat 5/9)
Why did not you call those who are led by the spirit of God (Gods) although they are sons of God in the Bible (the exambles are many )
-- Is this son-ship actually or metaphorically ? I think they never be actually.What is your point of view ?

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We use the term children of God because those saved through Jesus and accept the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit thus becoming part of the living Gospel of Christ Jesus become children of God.

Romans 8:14–17
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

There are many references to the term "Son of God" in the Bible. However, we see that the term son when used in relation to Jesus is unique. I attach a link which explains very well what the differences are and why we hold the Son ship of Jesus as different from for example Adam. Adam was a creation... Jesus is eternal.

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html

Please do not imply that we see "son" as actual. This is blasphemy... And I am not happy with that. I do not understand why the Quran seemingly misrepresents Jesus as son of God, and implies a physical union. Which is abhorrent to Christians.

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Christians are not slaves" " humble servants but never slaves."
I appreciate the sensitivity of the word slave . In fact it is written "slave" in the Arabic Bible and in the Quran too. The slavery to human is a state of humiliation and indignity but the slavery to the Almihgty Allah is pride, dignity and sublimity. The messenger of Allah said :" Those who humble themselves to Allah , Allah will lift them".(means Allah will lift their values and bring them closer to him (pbth) .
-- In fact we are proud that the Almighty Allah is our Beneficent and Merciful Master. We Muslims are proud that we are slaves of that great and dignity Holy master .He is more beneficent and more merciful than our fathers and mothers. No human master in that world equals him in his compassion , generosity and tender. Have you ever seen a master feeds his slave if he is hungry , drinks him if he is thirsty ,heals him if he is ill, grants him housing ,wife and children as he had granted him before mind , eyes ,ears, one tongue and two leps.hands ,legs. Allah says in the Holy Quran : 34. And He giveth you of all that ye ask for. but if ye count the favours of Allah, never will ye be able to number them. Verily, man is given up to injustice and ingratitude.(14/34)

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Then if it is seen as an honour to be thought of as slave then that is fine for you, I respect that. I have no experience of slaves, but from cases I have read about slaves they were rarely treated well.

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Dear Pandora, be humble and modest to Allah and be good slave to Good Master . Mohammad (pbuh) taught us to call him "the slave of Allah and him messenger "Jesus (pbuh) was a model of the great slave to Allah . He used to pray prostrating to Allah ,putting his face on the dust begging to the Almighty God asking him what he wants with all humbly and love. The Holy Bible says :
A) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.(Mat26/39)
B) And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.(Mar 14/35)
C) And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.(Lu 6/12)
--- To whom was Jesus putting his face in dust praying ? to his God and our God or to himself? To whom was he begging to pass the cup from him? I think that he was praying to the only true God that he sent him to mankind .The God that no one saw him or heard his voice .Is he god .Have you ever heard about god who puts his face on dust asking other to help him? little mind Please.
Thank you and may Allah guide me and you to the straight way.Peace be with you and your family.

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I have always been humble before God, Jesus was never a slave but forever the loving son and obedient servant. Jesus taught us how to pray, and we do so according to His teaching. Jesus usually prayed alone in a quiet place, he often knelt and sometimes prostrated, Christians do so also, Jesus also taught that it did not matter which direction we faced as God was everywhere and would hear our prayers from wherever we are if our prayers are sincere and from the heart. Of course Jesus prayed to God... Jesus was always subordinate to God the father God the father is all powerful, all mighty and all worship is for Him alone.

May God continue to guide you and bless you.

Dear Pandora,
-- I would like to say that Jesus (pbth) used to pray prostrating putting his face on dust with all humbly and surrender to the Almighty Allah .Have you ever followed him in your praying ?.Have you ever tasted the thrill of prostration to the Almighty Allah who no one has seen him or heard his voice ?. It is the true happiness to do that. The messenger of Allah "Muhammad" (pbuh) taught us that when the slave is prostrating , he is being in the closest state to Allah.

-- In regards to what you quoted from John 1 /5/10/14/15/17 to prove that Jesus (pbuh) is Allah ( God Forbid ) .What you quoted are outside the text ( as you always say ) , But trust me if anyone reads all these chapters with his simple own mind and easy own thought away from the complicated thoughts of his fathers and his priests he will discover that these chapters deny the divinity of Jesus .Jesus (pbuh) was so clear to prove his humanity. He (pbuh) was talking about two, he and Allah the only true God who sent him. I hope that you reread them but without any background or any preivous ideas.I can comment on every chapter if you would like.
-- In fact a lot of priests deceive you and plant unreasonable ideas in your mind (Taking the chance that you look at them as angles) as they do in your ancestors when they persuaded them that they can buy parts of lands in Paradise versus taking their money. Historically that was known as " Deeds of forgiveness ". Their immorality reached to persuade people to buy land in Paradise for their dead relatives.
-- Excuse me . I will tell you something in present . I saw a video about a big priest who wanted to persuade a large audience of Christians that The Holy Quran admits that Jesus is god . What did the priest do ? . The Holy Quran talked about the Miracles that God gave to Christ (pbuh) .Allah said :-
110. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to Thee and to Thy mother. Behold! I strengthened Thee with the holy spirit, so that Thou Didst speak to the people In childhood and In maturity. Behold! I taught Thee the Book and Wisdom, the law and the Gospel and Behold! Thou makest out of clay, As it Were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and Thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and Thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. and Behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. and Behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) Thee when Thou Didst Show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'(5/110)
-- The priest read these verses but he hided or removed the phrase (by my leave ) .Then he said to people : " Allah only who is able to do that , then Jesus is God" . Of course , the man deceived all people because Jesus (pbuh) did all these deeds by the leave of Allah only.

to be continued

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Its not about deletion it's about interpretation. The Spirit and the water and the blood refers to the concept of the trinity.

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what is the relationship between (the spirit –the water –the blood) and (the father-the son-the holy spirit).Who do you worship the father or the son or the Holy spirit ?