Two things:

1. That the earliest gospels portrayed the one on the crusifix yelling god why did you forsake me meaning abandon me

2. The re is a contradiction between the gospel of Mark and Matthew from one side and luke and john from the other

The gospels of Mark and Matthew portrays Jesus's last words as god why have you forsaken me while Luke deletes that and states that Jesus's last words was father into your hands I commit my spirit

I don't know the answer, but I would be so fast to call it a contradiction. Maybe, they are recording different last words they remember Jesus saying. A contradiction means one thing cannot be said if another thing is being said. For instance, one saying Jesus died on the cross and rose and the other says he didn't die are rise. That is a significant contradiction, but I don't have a problem with Jesus' last words when I believe he could have said both or either one of them that doesn't contradict the central gospel message

peace.

Thank you for being honest in your answer

As for maybe he would have spoke both well that is impossible for reasons which I showed in response number 57 on page 6, basically the context in both is talking about his last words

Why did I bring up such a question:

1. The last words in the gospel of Mark and Matthew god why have you forsaken me , portrays Jesus as giving up and declaring that god left him !!!!

2. The contradiction of the last words of Jesus shows an unreliability in the gospels plus downplays the whole Christian argument about eyewitnesses of the crusifix of Jesus since both Matthew and Luke were there according to christian claims and there so called gospels written by them (as what christians claim).

Sure, not a problem; there are many difficulties for me in the Bible I don't know the answer to nor do I accept all of what other Christians give as solutions, but I don't give up on the Bible, but I would give up on it if its transmission was like that of the Quran (direct dictation from God), but it was only written by the way men understood God interacted with them, and we Christians try to glean from it what God's purpose and will is for our lives, but it gets more involved when a believer becomes born again and filled by God's Spirit. We then see things that bear witness with our spirit that confirm personal revelation from God to us. God interacts with born again believers that is what Jesus told Nicodemus "You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven" Nicodemus was a religious Jew who carefully followed OT Mosaic law, but Jesus was telling him that is not enough, and that he must be born anew. Nicodemus couldn't understand it. He asked "how can a man enter his mother's womb and be born again when he is old?" Jesus responded, that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. The wind blow where it wants. You hear it but don't where it is coming from or where it is going; so are those born of the spirit. Nicodemus said how can that be. Jesus said, if you don't believe earthly things I tell you, how can you believe or understand the spiritual things?" I have been born again and understand what Jesus was talking about, but I cannot make it make sense to someone who hasn't experienced this new birth Jesus spoke of. These stories are not Biblical corruptions. it is the foundations of our salvation. You will know it only when you ask Jesus to be born again like a child believing. Jesus said "except you become a child you shall not enter into heaven." He said be like a child (in faith) not childish!

Maybe, but just the same, it doesn't hurt the central gospel message in my mind's eye or in the eye of Christianity obviously.

Not to me. It is consistent with the fact that Jesus took on the sin of the world, and God turned His back on Him (sin) for a short time as given in prophecy: "For I short time I forsook you, but I have taken you back with loving kindness" It makes perfect sense to me. It is not like Jesus' righteous disappeared. He put on our sin, and when we accept God's gift by accepting Jesus, the righteousness of Christ comes on the believer. That is why Jesus said "you will die in your sin unless you believe I am he and no comes to God except through me." Jesus was joking when He kicked them out of Eden, and it wasn't for no reason He shed His blood. The shadow of Jesus sacrifice was like that of the Passover in the torah. The blood of the lamb saved their souls like the blood of Christ saves ours from spiritual eternal death, but we have to meet God on His terms.

Not to me. It makes it more creditable, because if every thing lined up perfectly, you could think this was put together by one person who made all the pieces fit perfectly. As I had mentioned, if 12 people go to an event and report back, their stories will not be identical, but that doesn't mean the event didn't happen the way they understood it and reported it. They may have seen it from a different point of view. I don't know for sure, but I am not going to let it rob me of my faith, the joy and strength God has blessed me with.

peace

So what is the point you said we would understand when we are born again !!!1 but yet you do not understand , you are accepting certain beliefs because you said it shows you the kingdom of heaven yet you cannot answer specific questions about Jesus and his message !!!! I guess the idea about seeing the kingdom of heaven is a metaphor about good feelings and comfort after believing in a specific ideology about Jesus!!! My friend this exists in all religions
Your idea is believe and you will feel better !!!! believe and then I will prove it to you !!!! yet you yourself do not have a lot of answers!!!

The contradiction actually do hit the central message , I mean we do not know what Jesus the son of God actually said when he was crusfied !!!! There is a contradiction in one of the most important events in the christian central theme

As for this pasage : "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

Isaiah 54: 7

This is within the context of God talking to Israel not the other way around!!!!! God can abandon us if we astray and this is the point , why would Jesus say this ????
However the passage says for a brief moment but Jesus once he said that he died !!!! it was his last words according to Mark and Matthew!!!!!

Finally there is a difference between lining up and contradiction , they all according to christians saw it but there are various discrepencies !!!!! discrepencies and contradictions in the most important parts!!!! one says he said something and the other says he said another thing !!!!!
and the propblem is that you want me to belive that they were both aspired by god!!!!! how????
If 12 people attend a man's death in a hospital and the man shouts a certain thing before he dies so that everybody would hear it , I serously doubt that they would all differ at that point!!!

peace

Good question brother, according to Christians it doesn't matter even if every single person of the 12 gave different accounts, what matters is what Christians want to believe.

What specific questions? Seeing the kingdom of God is not a metaphor. It is not about feelings. Our feelings according to my understanding of our Scriptures make nice servants but very poor leaders. You could be right about good feelings existing in all religions of course that includes Islam right?
How does it impact the central gospel message? Yes, God is talking to Israel, but Jesus is the culmination of all that happens to Israel for he was sent to them! I have addressed this clearly to you by saying that Jesus became sin for the world, and God turned His back on Him for a time, but the righteousness of Christ came into those who received Him as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. People who reject this message will die in their sin as Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He." I believe Jesus not Islam's messenger who contradicts the Scriptures that came before!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة محمد سني 1989 مشاهدة المشاركة

Finally there is a difference between lining up and contradiction , they all according to christians saw it but there are various discrepencies !!!!! discrepencies and contradictions in the most important parts!!!! one says he said something and the other says he said another thing !!!!!
and the propblem is that you want me to belive that they were both aspired by god!!!!! how????
If 12 people attend a man's death in a hospital and the man shouts a certain thing before he dies so that everybody would hear it , I serously doubt that they would all differ at that point!!!

peace

People wrote things as they saw them and understood them. It is not God speaking via dictation through and angle like in the Quran. The most important part was that Jesus died for our sin (not Jesus' last words before death that doesn't change the central gospel message) and we can be saved from our sin past, present and future; it is the grace of God helps us to live perfect and holy lives.
As for you hospital example of 12 people attending a man's death in a hospital and the man shouts a certain thing before he dies so that everybody hears it, and you seriously doubting that they would all differ at that point, is a good point, but perhaps if sixty or seventy years had gone by after they share their testimony or it is documented, you might not doubt it so seriously then.
Again the important thing is that Jesus did die for our sin, and those who reject this gift of God (Jn. 3:16) go to eternal damnation first to the Jew, because as you mentioned, and I agree, Jesus came for them first; God opened the door for all people groups after they (Jews) refused the invitation to dine with the King and God of the universe. You see the point I am making mainly is your argument doesn't have any effect on the central gospel message, but Allah implying misconceptions of our God's tri unity shows a discrepancy that impacts my believing that the Quran came from an all knowing God.

peace to you

First : you said that seeing the kingdom of god as you say does not mean feelings , then what is it if it is not knowledge since you say you do not have answers yet !!!!!

Second: the passage never said anything about culmination it is your personal interpritation of the text which the context of the text does not support
What are you talking about righteousness !!!!! this has nothing to do with what Jesus said nor does it give a viable answer !!!!
The text say that Jesus's last words was asking god why he left him!!! then he shouted and died !!!! any person who can read will simply deduct this as the person not wanting to die and feels like he failed !!!!

Third No the last words of Jesus are important as his concept of dying for others , especially that his last words would reflect his beliefs. The last words for every human being is important, no body would in their right mind say giberish for their last words rather they would say what they felt

Fourth : If the twelve men wrote what happened years later and because that they started to forget then that my friend proves that :
1. Most of what they wrote are unreliable
2. They were not guided by God because forgetting things related to God's scripture before documenting it means that God did not support their writing nor were they guided by the holy ghost when writting

Note: I will not respond to topics not related to what we are discussing , so I will quote what we are discussing only. These crafty tactics of yours will not work

it is an experience and revelation of knowledge and truth that can accompany feelings but necessarily. Didn't you know there is a difference between knowledge and feelings? Take love for instance, love can accompany feelings but not necessarily. You can give your enemy who is thirsty a cup of water without having feelings be they emotional or whatever.
I never said the passage says that explicitly, but we can infer that from Biblical hermeneutics and Biblical scholars concur. It is not my private interpretation as you say. It is understood by the congregation of churches in general. You are the one coming up with private interpretation that Jesus shouting out His last words means failure and a discrepancy in the central gospel message. You are seeing this all on your own. We don't see what you talking about as being a point here, because it isn't.
Some people do say gibberish as their last words. Look it up online. A man gave his last words before being put to death on an electric chair: "You people are going to see French fries." Jesus saying "Why have you forsaken me" is not gibberish but it is significant to our belief that Jesus became cursed so we could e blessed; he died so we could live; HE BECAME SIN so we could be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. These are things that will make no sense to the unregenerated mind, heart and soul. Jesus said, "You must be born again..." That is why the Bible states that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved, it is the power of God!!!
It is your opinion and nothing more that the BIBLE IS NOT RELIABLE as you have mentioned so many times. I can say the same about the Quran. The truth is both of our faiths have difficulties in them that we don't always know the answer to. I am willing to admit it, but Muslims are not it seems, and I understand why, but it doesn't stop me from seeing them in the Quran.
Your comment about me being crafty wasn't necessary. You just want to keep me on the defensive about the Bible, and don't want to be on the defensive about the Quran so you call me "crafty." The title of this thread is to examine what makes more sense between any aspects of our faith; so there is no craft involved when I use the Quran as an example of what the Bible is not in terms of how we received our Scriptures.
Islam has to attack Christianity to promote its religion, but Christianity doesn't have to do this, and it is not a reaction against other faiths the way the Quran is against the Bible. The Bible just tells you it is this and that way and lets the chips fall where they may, and for this reason, Christianity with all its difficulties makes more sense to me than Islam.

Peace

Peace

Mat. 27 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Luke: 23: 44) It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Jesus could have said both at different times at and around the 9th hour. It does say about the 9th hour.

Peace

First : That is my point , you say it is meaning , yet you do not know most of what the bible means , thats what you said !!!! So it does not have any meaning when christians come up and say I saw the light , I am born again !!! They still know the same amount of knowledge as they did before . Love is feeling just as repulsiveness , hate , joyfull and satisfaction , they are feelings nothing more man.

Second: As for what you said here :




You can see that both statements in red are contradictory . If it was my private interpritation then why are you saying that the passage indirectly says what you are saying????

More importantly the context of the passage does not really serve such obscure interpritation , an interpritation that does not actually have meaning

I mean this is your personal interpritation of the passage when you come and say something like this :

What does this mean !!!! This is not an answer !!! The passage never said culmination , Do you even know what the word culmination is ???? Or are you just saying stuff that does not mean anything in an attempt to answer !!!!

Here you go :

"Amid the faintness, or the confusion of mind, felt at the approach of death, he experiences his abandonment by God; and yet his soul rests firmly on, and his wilt is fully subject to, God, while he is thus tasting death forevery man through God's grace .... He held firmly to God and retained the Divinity of his life, at the time when in his unity with mankind, and in his human feeling, the feeling of abandonment by God amazed him" (Lange). The verb "forsaken" is not in the perfect tense, as translated in the Authorized Version, but in the aorist; and it implies that during the three hours of darkness Christ had been in silence enduring this utter desolation, which had now come to its climax. The Man Christ Jesus asked whyhe was thus deserted; his human heart would fain comprehend this phase of the propitiatory sufferings which he was undergoing. No answer came from the darkened heaven; but the cry was heard; the unspeakable sacrifice, a sacrifice necessary according to the Almighty's purpose, was accepted, and with his own blood he obtained eternal redemption for man.

Source : pulpit commentary

So the church interpritation actually says what I say yet they try to twist and bend in order to explain this !!!!

Third: let me again state what I said about a person's last words:

This is what I said so nobody with healthy mind would say giberish in their last words

Then you come and say this :


Well my friend your twisted logic which contradicts common sense , really does not serve your argument. You claim that if you are born again you will know the answers yet I see that you have no answers, in fact my debating non christians you actually have discovered things about your bible which you never imagined were true .
Plus this argument is laughable in another way , I could tell you to understand Islam you have to convert, or a Jew could say the samething , LOL this is no answer my friend , it just show your inability to answer

Fourth : You have no idea about your faith , because christianity had a long history of attacking the jews , in fact if you read the history of the first three to six centuries of christianity you would know. Today christianity attacks Islam and tries to defame it but the fact of the matter is that this tactic of them does not work , Islam is still spreading by rapid numbers in areas like france , germany and other areas.
The fact that you claim that going on the attack itself is not neccesary contradicts the bible in the OT and NT. Just look at what Jesus peace be upon him did when he saw the Jews defaming the temple , did he go on the attack or did he sit down and minded his own business ???

plus and more importantly all these statement from you and you still did not answer my argument :

As usual you used the whole ignore and change the topic to avoid answering this fact

You are wrong man.
Love is a choice, that can but (not always) involve feelings especially when "feelings" start to wane; for instance, when people you love give you a hard time, you can and must choose to love them through it without feelings or warm emotions. This involves agape love that comes from God. God commands us in His word that we should love even our enemies. I guess you cannot understand this since there is no such command for love in your religion.
True God given love contrary to what you say is ultimately a choice and a commitment that, as I mentioned, may or may not accompany feelings or emotion. I think you just like to debate and argue for the sake of it friend.
I see no contradictions, because yours is the private interpretation not mine. Christians as a whole believe Jesus is the culmination of Israel. Do you know what culmination means?

What are you talking about here? Again, do you know what culmination means? If you did, I don't think you would've made this comment.

I haven't ignored you and you have mentioned no facts. My posts don't always show up in time or at all sometimes. I answered you by quoting the verses in question:
Mat. 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Luke: 23: 44)It was now about the sixth hour,] and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 while the sun's light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

It is possible that Jesus said both during or about the 9th hour because it was about that hour. About is not an exact time so both statement could have been made. You are grasping at straws here, and have not proven Biblical unreliability has you had hoped. At least not with us Christians, and you have missed the point of the passage you quote being blinded by your misdirected zeal to prove the Bible is corrupted.

The point is that Jesus did die for our sin. He paid for your sin and mine; you are without Christ's sacrifice for your sin, and will have to account to God for your sins in the past, present and future and be judged. Jesus said it to you: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He, and no one comes to the father (God /Allah) except through me."
You have strayed from your Creator and the topic of this thread. How did you get to the Christians attacking Jews and Muslims? What does that have to do with the topic?

You debate me and argue and reject truth from the Bible at your own spiritual peril along with all others reading and rejecting this message. If the Bible was corrupted, than so is the Quran, because Allah said he sent down the torah and gospel to your prophet Muhammad as guidance and light with no mention of corruption. We still have the same manuscripts he had in his hand in the 7th century. God said in those Scriptures: "My word is established forever in heaven....,"and the Quran says that no one can alter or change Allah's words. So, if the torah and gospel (Allah's words) were altered, Allah's word in the Quran isn't true; if the Bible, however, has not been altered, then the Quran is not true, because it clashes with the torah and gospel; so, in light of this, it makes more sense to me to be Christian than Muslim which is the topic of this thread!

peace

peace

I didn't say that, and it is not about Christians saying I've been born again or I've seen the light; besides, only you would dare to deny one's testimony; it is about what Jesus said not Christians, "You must be born again.. to see the kingdom of heaven" or you'll never see it much less be there. These are not my sayings; they are His!!!

Peace

You know nothing about my religion :



On the authority of Anas ibn malik (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
"No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself."

(Bukhari & Muslim)

You know nothing about yours :

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14: 26

Love is a feeling there is no debate about this , apparantly you do not know the difference between love and showing love . There is a big difference and the fact that you twist and turn to interperate the word love in this ways shows an agony in your situation.
You are contradicting , you say you know knowledge but yet you admit of not knowing !!!!! What you knew is the bloody and heretic history of the vatican church which made you convert to protistant.

Second: I do know what culmination means but it has nothing to do with the last words of Jesus which you still cannot explain

Third : As for the possibility that jesus said both , I have already answered and addressed that in a previous response which you did not answer :





You have been born blind and have become more blind , your interpritation of the text is based upon personal opinion. The fact that you admitted that there are variations and errors in the bible is enough , however your defense is that it does not effect the central message of the bible . This is a pathetic attempt to blindside the readers on the fact that your holy book has errors!!!!! LOL . The errors themselves do hit many of the core principles of christianity like the ressurection story , the crusifix story and many more

As for the Quran , LOL do not make me laugh again burninglight , you keep proving to me you know nothing about your ow religion and so I am not surprised when you come and make absurd comments like the quran never mentioned the corruption of the bible !!!:

Here you go :

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?Quran 1:75

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion.
Quran 4: 46

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.Quran 5:13


O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

Quran 3:71


And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187


So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79



From hadeeth :

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


Saheeh Bukhary

Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850

God said nobody can alter the Quran not the torah and the gospel, The quran

never stated that the torah and the gospel were not altered , the verse you

speek about talks about the Quran

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.


Quran 15: 9

Conclusion:


I really can't see any sign of your so called knowledge ,

maybe its time to start thinking and open your eyes


Christians Agree that there are variations in there gospels and the Quran

affirms it , christians claim that it is not important because it does not

contradict the central message , however even if that is true it still means

that the writers did not have the holy ghost upon them and were not inspired

by God!!! Therefore christianity contradicts itself. By also further looking into

these variations we see that they do in fact affect the central message and

therefore another contradiction again !!!! christianity does not make sense

here. While Islam affirms the corruption of the scriptures and claims that the

Quran do not contradict itself neither do it contain variations and it was

perfectly preserved therefore it is worthy to be called devinly inspired and

so Islam makes perfect sense here .

Here you contradict your self You said before that being born again means gaining knowledge yet you yourself in a previous thread stated that you do not much about the bible and what it means , your whole argument is based on "convert and you will know" yet it seems that you lack the knowledge