I am not changing the topic. It is all about what makes more sense Christianity or Islam which is the topic of this thread, and it doesn't go against rules to bring up sub topics that support the thread title. Iit sounds to me like you are trying to make trouble for me that is not necessary. If you think I shouldn't be able to post directly and need this disadvantage, that is fine and your opinion. I don't want to hear about it any more from you, and I told you this already so you are bent on changing the topic of this thread and sticking to it after I told I will discuss it no further with you. You bait me to be off topic and then judge me when I do it, but it is all par for the course. I know you don't care what I think, but the sources I gave about your prophet's reaction on Mt. Hira is from Muslim sources. From Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106. Words in [ ] type brackets are mine. Words in ( ) brackets are the author's.

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

Can you proof this is not authentic? it is from Muslims sources is it not? Are you going to say all the things you don't like are weak oral traditions?

The "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir", (Book of the Major Classes), by Ibn Sa'd, translated by S. Moinal Haq, [4], page 225 has Muhammad saying:

"O Khadija, I see light and hear sounds and I fear I am mad".

The visitations from the spirit continued. Then they stopped for a time believed to have been from 6 months to 3 years. When this happened, Tabari, [5], volume 6 page 76, records:

"The inspiration ceased to come to the messenger of God for a while, and he was deeply grieved. He began to go to the tops of mountain crags, in order to fling himself from them; but every time he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "You are the Prophet of God." Thereupon his anxiety would subside and he would come back to himself."



Also, from Tabari Vol. 9, page 167, note 1151 says:



"The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in the demon of poetry, and they thought that a great poet was directly inspired by demons...."

This explains why Muhammad thought he was demon possessed, or influenced by demons; the Quran in many places reads like typical Arabic poetry.

In "Muhammad at Mecca", by W. M. Watt, [6], pages 40, 41, there are also references that detail Muhammad's suicidal thoughts. Watt quotes from az-Zuhri's material.

"He (Muhammad) said, I had been meditating throwing myself from a mountain crag, but while I was so meditating, he appeared to me and said, "O Muhammad, I am Gabriel, and thou are the Messenger of God."....

Az-Zuhri said: "There was a gap for a time in the revelation to the Messenger of God and he was very sorrowful. He started going early to the tops of the mountains to throw himself down from them. But whenever he reached the summit of a mountain, Gabriel would appear to him and say, "Thou are the Prophet of God."

So before you say this is off topic know that I am using to proof to me that Christianity makes more sense. When Paul was confronted by Jesus He did fear for his life and neither did Moses at the burning bush. Paul had reason to fear, because he was bent on killing Christians that Jesus considered to be His people. Demons throw fear into people and not heavenly beings. This is an argument to show that Christianity makes more sense. Now if these stories are not true about Islam's prophet prove it to me, because they are Islamic sources. Some Muslims deny this and others accept it is true so how I am supposed to know. You haven't proven yourself dependable in your comments about Islam so who I am to believe about Islam?

may I just ask you to clarify what your difficulty with this verse is? What aspect do you feel needs addressing? I am only asking so if one of us offers an answer we can be sure it's addressing your problem with this verse. Save a lot of time I feel.

Peace.

Here is what the oldest

gospel said about jesus's

last words in the crusifix :

[/FONT][/LEFT]And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15: 34


I do not think you can misinterperate this and you cannot say that I am insulting Jesus because we do not belive in the story of Jesus on the crusifix
This is something you are going to have to answer



[/COLOR]


[/FONT]

Sure

If the one crusified did believe that he was god or if he was in the righteous side and the messiah then why would he declare that god abandoned him???

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

Song of solomon 5: 16


The actual hebrew text :(in hebrew ):


"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."



this would make the actual text as :

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Muhammed . This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.



So all together lovely replaced Mohammed . So Mohammed means all together lovely


As for the context well there is something important :

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."


This is the context in hebrew , what is important is im which in hebrew is a masculine plural that comes after a noun like elohim . This type of hebrew grammer here and in other examples such as in elohim are used as the excellentiae or what is referred to as the royal we , which is a phrase used in semetic languages to indicate plurality to a single person as a tool of glorifying that person. So this means that the word muhammed is actually a noun



peace

How does indicating plurality to a single person glorify that person? Explain God as a single person along with how is it you see his oneness. If he is one person, for instance, can he be in several different places at the same time that would require more than one person to do on earth for us humans? If yes, how does he do it?

The title of this thread shouldn't be what makes more sense, but what is true between Christianity or Islam, because they cannot both be right. Something can be true and not make sense and yet be accepted by faith and something can be false and make sense to the deceived mind. Thereforr the title of this thread makes no sense when it comes to the things of God that are spiritually discerned.

peace

I believe Jesus said that, why is that a problem? As for the daeef not being reliable, I'll take your word for it. I haven't research it in great depth, it is just Muslim information that is out there that some Muslims accept it and some deny it. I'll take your word that Gabriel didn't call Muhammad a prophet of God on a mountain before his suicide attempt. But what is the problem with Jesus saying "Why have you forsaken me?" Remember Jesus became sin for us and a curse. God turns His back on sin, but the righteousness of Christ can be found in the church that God accepts as His bride.

First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. See verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:


Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.


The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles see...Matt. 15:21-28. His heart has melted within Him (verse 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (verse 15). Verses 16 to 18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.


Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. The Phoenicians developed it, and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So.. when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.


Also consider 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It is possible that at some moment on the cross when Jesus became sin on our behalf, that God the Father, in a sense, turned His back upon the Son. It says in Hab. 1:13 that God is too pure to look upon evil. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross, that God the Father...spiritually...turned away because His holiness is such that sin is an anathema to Him. At that time, the Son may have cried out. I don't know if you could imagine a feeling of desolation ... even for the shortest of moments duration what it must have been to endure separation from Gods love, something that Jesus had known and experienced as His nature from eternity. I think muslims see the idea of the crucifixion as something shameful and you do not see it as the supreme act of agape love that God demonstrated to His creation man, through His word.. Jesus.



Yes, as, I am aware you do not believe it, yet have no satisfactory reason to explain it. However, I do believe it and can only answer your question from my point of view... Because I can't quite imagine any other scenario other than that which the Bible portrays. Apologies in advance if my post is not to your satisfaction.

Peace unto you.

The context of Psalm 22:

1For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. 2O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest.3Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.4In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.…

The context of this shows that this was said because god did not respond to David as in psalm 22:2 . This was in other words said because god did not answer and that is the point Jesus according to Mark said it because as the context reveal god did not answer , it is not appropriate to say , Jesus never said that.

That is why when the writer of Luke (one of the synoptic gospels) copied from Mark , did not like this passage so he changed it to :

46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Luke 23: 46


Note : I am not talking about the crusifixion or why theidea of bearing the sin rather I am talking about what jesus said

peace

How do you know that Jesus didn't say both? Or how do you know someone had a problem and changed the verse? I don't have a problem with either of these presentations. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't die for our sin. If several people witness an event and report back, trust me that their stories will not be identical. Does that mean the event was corrupted or didn't happen? No, of course not. You are grasping as straws here.

Peace

Because the writer of luke was coppying from Mark and editted some passages which he saw a problem , one is this. Luke and Matthew copied from Mark thats why they are called the synoptic gospels

Jesus could not have said both because they are both speaking of his last words :

46

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Luke 23: 46

And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Mark 15: 37

This was his last moment , a loud cry so according to Mark his last words was god why have you forsaken me

I know what you will say , you will say the loud cry is what jesus said in Luke , that is wrong in two ways :

1. Mark and Matthew are both older than Luke , Mark 40 AD Matthew 70-100 AD . As for Luke it was written 80- 90 AD

2. biblical commentary describe the loud cry in Mark as something different:

Verse 37. - And Jesus uttered a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. The three synoptists all mention this cry, which appears to have been something different from the words which he uttered at or about the time of his death. It was evidently something supernatural, and was so regarded by the centurion who stood by; and who had no doubt been accustomed to scenes like these.

Source : Pulpit Commentary




Jesus

Jesus took the wrath of God-forsakenness on Himself. Although innocent, He took the punishment so that others could be saved. These different reported last words of Jesus you mentioned doesn't bothered my faith, and I am not interested in doing a big research on it. I already explained that people who witness an event and report back, the stories will always be different, but that just adds credence the event happened as denied by Islam. Christians have their own connection with God who reveals himself to them. IOW, His spirit bears witness with ours that we are His. Christianity, unlike Islam is a relationship with God and not just a religion. Without a relationship with God we are none of His.
peace