Of couse here you ignored my whole response and focussed on just what is physical and so on

You claimed there was a spiritual death in the previous response, this response was just to proves to you that the text is not talking in a retorical way there is only the physical death in the passage

Please read my reply carefully

First the doctrine of lie in Paul :

1 Corinthians chapter 9 verses 19-22:

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some

2 Corinthians chapter 12:16:
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery

Romans 3:5-7:
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 Absolutely not! For otherwise how could God judge the world? 7 For if by my lie the truth of God enhances his glory, why am I still actually being judged as a sinner?

As for the bible the gospel , the gospel was first revealed to jesus peace be upon him then corrupted after god raised for some time : examples:

1. We do not know who wrote the gospels it is credited to people without evidence , people who spoke aramaic and apparantly in the end of their lives learned to read and write Greek!!!

2. The oldest new testement manuscript wich is named p52 a small fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND CENTURY contains some variations

3.The oldest COMPLETE NEW TESTEMENT Codex SinaiticuDating to almost 350 AD conatains multiple multiple variations , such as the resurection story in mark ends at :
”8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

The rest Does not exist , Check it out for yourself :
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=ESV

As for the Quran < I am surprised by your lack of information :

First : not all of the memorizers of the Quran died in the battle of Yamamah There still were Zaid ibn thabit, Abdullah ibn masud , Ubay ibn kaab , Ali ibn abi talib , Abu bakr and many many muslims
Zaid was the one who wrote the Quran to Abubakr and managed to use that same copy to make multiple copies of it by the order of Uthman may god be pleased with them , Zaid was also ONE OF THE PEOPLE WRITTING TH QURAN DURING THE TIME OF THE PROPHET PEACE BE UPON HIM

Here is how the Quran was gathered :

First the quran was written during the time of muhammed peace be upon him :
Anas said, "The Qur'an was collected in the lifetime of the Prophet () by four (men), all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai, Mu`adh bin Jabal, Abu Zaid and Zaid bin Thabit." I asked Anas, "Who is Abu Zaid?" He said, "One of my uncles."

ٍSahih Al bukahari Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 155

THEN compiled during the time of Abu bakr the first Caliph a YEAR after the death of the prophet :
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed). (I went to him) and found `Umar bin Al- Khattab sitting with him........ Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book.........So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat at-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuza`ima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. ....... Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with `Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4986,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 509
This same copy which was in hafsa's hand was given to uthman to make copies of :

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. ........So `Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to `Uthman........They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. `Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4987,Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 510

So as you can see the quran was preserved from the time of the prophet written and then compiled in one copy by zaid ibn thabit during the first caliph a YEAR AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET and that same copy used to make many copiesof it to distribute it


Peace and May God guide you to the truth

It is sad. I know you mean it in the sense that the Bible is the lie, but the Scripture says "Let every man be a liar but God's word is true." You might sincerely believe that you're not saying Satan is right and God is wrong, but inadvertently that is what you're doing.

Again you trying to make me say things I have not said, I said you Christians claim this according to your bible, the fact that you Claim God said to them you will die when you eat this. Then you trying to twist the truth by having different interpretation to justify your belief, by twisting the verse to say what you want them to say!

You are sincere, but sincerely wrong, and you patronize me with "I don't have time for this" as if you have the corner on truth and what I share is not true. I am spending time trying correct your misconceptions of Christianity and you act as if your time is better than mine, pfft. Yes, it is very sad.

I never said my time was better than yours, you are saying that. I said I don’t have time for people who twist the truth, there are people who are sincere, and I am not saying you have to agree with me, just don’t twist the truths, and make me say things I have not said because that is patronising.

You seem to believe God would leave His creation without His uncorrupted word or central message for a thousand + years until he could bring a messenger of Islam to straighten out what needed no correction. This makes no sense to me at all. Joseph Smith tried it and people are sucked into lies by the millions because they are willing to drop the Bible at a drop of the hat.

Well Islam does not make sense to you because you do not want it to make sense but let me put this in prospective, as a lot of Christians do not bother searching for Islam from its source, they just use the same hate propaganda that been used against Islam in years. For me if Muslims claim something against Christianity, I will hear from both sides, and I don’t just carry what I have been told, there are cases Christians will answer some aspects credibly, and it make sense to me (not the whole religion) but some aspects, they have valid answers for. Christians I discuss with however, they try to twist the truth, and as I said the same old lies against Islam, like we are in debate war, it is not who win the debate that matters, it is who will have the last laugh in the life after.

Now let’s write the simple story of Islam, God created Angels, and Jin, and then Human. He created Adam peace be upon him, the father of humanity with desires, and free will, we have freedom of will, responsibility for our choice of action and the consequent accountability before God, the same goes for Jin except Satan or Iblis.

Angeles in Islam do not sin, they have no free will, they do what they are told from God, and unlike Christianity we don’t believe that Satan was an angel, he was great servant of God but he disobeyed God, and the difference between his disobedience and of Adam, that Adam repented while Iblis refuse to repent, and his only ask from God was just delay my punishment until judgement day, and I will bring to hell as much as I could from the son of Adam.

((Iblis) said: “See this one whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring all but a few!”) (Quran 17:62).
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65).

God created us, and then thought our father how to repent, and who is his enemy. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message is the same worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger.

Every messenger came with miracles, and books but Satan will send people astray from the truth then God will send, another messenger. People go astray, even to this day, you see so many sects, and divisions in one religion, they cannot be all the truth.
If God only sent one messenger and one book then people will complain why he did not send more, but God has sent many messengers, and every time the book get changed, corrupted etc so God sealed the religion with one more messengers, as prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as last messenger, and he did not come with new message it was the same “The Lord our God, the Lord is one” the only difference this time, since people like to see themselves, there were no more messengers, so how about miracles ? it had to stay, so God promised to preserve the last book from corruption, and that by itself is a miracle. Although it is miracles in many other aspects but that warrant another thread.

This is the story of Islam in short so what does not make sense??, as I explained God did not leave people without a message, and also prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with new messages, it was the same of all prophets, Adam, Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses, and every messenger peace be upon them all.

Human are created with desires, and free will, animals only have desires. Islam teaches that what is halal (permissible), you can enjoy, and what is not allowed you avoid, as human are created with desires, God did not deprive us but he sets limits for us for example, marriage is permissible in Islam but fornication is not. That why we Muslims, find that priests and nuns who decide to not get married ever very strange, we see them as human who are been deprived of natural feelings, so when we read of news of priests scandals with kids, it does not surprise us at all, because when you deprive human of natural feelings, they become animals. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam.

We human sin because we were created that way , AND not because Adam and eve brought it for us or because we inherited.
Now let’s hear the story of Christianity, God created Adam and Eve, and he forbid them from eating from one tree and when they do eat from the tree God does not forgive them, and he sent messenger after messenger and these messengers none of them mention that the son of God will be crucified. In fact after thousands of years, the son of God appear, he does not even say to them I am going to be crucified, so God the father send his son while his son is him, and holy spirit is him too but never in order of Holy spirit, son, then Father even though they are equal!! So any way in order to go back to paradise and redeem ourselves from the sin our father and mother committed we have to accept that the son of God was spat on killed, and humiliated, and accepting this humiliation upon the son of God you gain your salivation., makes perfect sense!

My source is the Quran and talking to muslims like yourself. With all due respect it does not seem you take your information of the Bible from the Bible itself by reading it in the context it was meant.. If you did I fear you would not say the things you do half the time. However, just as I am not a Muslim and so the Quran does not make sense to me then I expect the same goes for you in regards to the Bible.. It comes down to context and understanding the nature of the work. Muslims tend to judge the Bible by the same standards they set for the Quran, it is not possible to do this in any meaningful way. For a start the Quran is just one little book, the Bible is not.. But a collection of books. As for having the last laugh... Well that a really sad outlook to have in regards to the important matter of ones future eternal salvation. I do so hope the last laugh is not on yourself. If you permit I would like to make some observations about the account you have given in regards to Adam and Eve, and why it does not make as much sense as the Biblical version, which btw you have not given a very accurate account of.

Now let’s write the simple story of Islam, God created Angels, and Jin, and then Human. He created Adam peace be upon him, the father of humanity with desires, and free will, we have freedom of will, responsibility for our choice of action and the consequent accountability before God, the same goes for Jin except Satan or Iblis.

I agree that we are all created as Adam was with free will. This is because worship is worthless unless it is freely given..otherwise God could have created us as automatons if all He wished was for mankind to worship Him. I agree.. And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same. I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them. Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for his part in the fall of man.

Angeles in Islam do not sin, they have no free will, they do what they are told from God, and unlike Christianity we don’t believe that Satan was an angel, he was great servant of God but he disobeyed God, and the difference between his disobedience and of Adam, that Adam repented while Iblis refuse to repent, and his only ask from God was just delay my punishment until judgement day, and I will bring to hell as much as I could from the son of Adam.

((Iblis) said: “See this one whom You have honored above me, if You give me respite until the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring all but a few!”) (Quran 17:62).
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65).

when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose? Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition? We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created. That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..

God created us, and then thought our father how to repent, and who is his enemy. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message is the same worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger.

we do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family. He was a lesson to mankind... To serve as a reminder of Gods power and the consequences of disobedience towards God. An example of how sin prevents our communion with a Holy God. His message was not to worship the one god... If it were he failed miserably as most of mankind adopted pagan ways and worshipped idols. His message was to trust in the One God, because only through the one true God is mankind saved. Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit... And the message was always more important than the messenger. Messengers cMe and went for they are naught but mortal.. The word is eternal.

Every messenger came with miracles, and books but Satan will send people astray from the truth then God will send, another messenger. People go astray, even to this day, you see so many sects, and divisions in one religion, they cannot be all the truth.
If God only sent one messenger and one book then people will complain why he did not send more, but God has sent many messengers, and every time the book get changed, corrupted etc so God sealed the religion with one more messengers, as prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as last messenger, and he did not come with new message it was the same “The Lord our God, the Lord is one” the only difference this time, since people like to see themselves, there were no more messengers, so how about miracles ? it had to stay, so God promised to preserve the last book from corruption, and that by itself is a miracle. Although it is miracles in many other aspects but that warrant another thread.

not every messenger came with miracles and not all miracles were from God. That is why we are told to test the prophets before we accept the message they bring is valid. We are told that many false prophets will come and lead people astray. From a biblical perspective the fact that so many prophets were chosen was simply the fact of human lifespan did not allow for Gods plan to be given in one fell swoop.. It was meant for different peoples from different times with the common theme that apart from worshipping and obeying the one God we also need God for our salvation and if we deviate from the path He places us on we do so at our peril.

This is the story of Islam in short so what does not make sense??, as I explained God did not leave people without a message, and also prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with new messages, it was the same of all prophets, Adam, Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses, and every messenger peace be upon them all.

prophet Mohammed did not bring the same message as the biblical prophets. You just tell yourself that the message was just to worship the one God, as Jews and Christians were worshipping the one true God ... YHWH.. Then I fail to see what was the point of the prophet Mohammed's revelation or what it brought new to the redemption of mankind that mankind had not already been given. Personally, I believe prophet Mohammed was sent to the pagans of Arabia to bring them to the one true God.

Human are created with desires, and free will, animals only have desires. Islam teaches that what is halal (permissible), you can enjoy, and what is not allowed you avoid, as human are created with desires, God did not deprive us but he sets limits for us for example, marriage is permissible in Islam but fornication is not. That why we Muslims, find that priests and nuns who decide to not get married ever very strange, we see them as human who are been deprived of natural feelings, so when we read of news of priests scandals with kids, it does not surprise us at all, because when you deprive human of natural feelings, they become animals. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam.

we don't see that messengers are protected in any way from sin.. And sin is sin before God, weather big or small. We cannot judge how a Holy God views sin. Although if you say it's the view of a majority of scholars.. Then they have just arrived at that conclusion and are in danger of ascribing something to God that is not of God.

We human sin because we were created that way , AND not because Adam and eve brought it for us or because we inherited.
Now let’s hear the story of Christianity, God created Adam and Eve, and he forbid them from eating from one tree and when they do eat from the tree God does not forgive them, and he sent messenger after messenger and these messengers none of them mention that the son of God will be crucified. In fact after thousands of years, the son of God appear, he does not even say to them I am going to be crucified, so God the father send his son while his son is him, and holy spirit is him too but never in order of Holy spirit, son, then Father even though they are equal!! So any way in order to go back to paradise and redeem ourselves from the sin our father and mother committed we have to accept that the son of God was spat on killed, and humiliated, and accepting this humiliation upon the son of God you gain your salivation., makes perfect sense!

Demands on my time means I will have to address the rest of your post later,

peace unto you.

the Bible teaches that God made us in His image... So one has to ask why would God then create man that was not perfect as God is perfect? What kind of God creates His best creation man.. (And as man is given dominion over the animals then for sure we must believe we are of His best creation). As flawed, in such a way that has consequences for mankind being separated from God the creator.. Especially as God created man for communion with Him? The Bible makes more sense if man was meant to take his place with God, and in order to do so has to be perfect as God is perfect. If man is tainted by sin ergo man is no longer perfect and forfeits his right to communion with God. Btw.. As already said it is not Adams sin we inherit but the sin nature.. Proof of that is the human condition, as we know no one is sinless (except for the Christ) every sin has a consequence, to ourselves, to those we sin against and to God. God sets the standard as by which mankind makes atonement for sin. Christianity teaches that we cannot atone for sin my our own efforts because we can never be as great and as good as God.. God knows this and through His divine mercy and love has given us the means to make ourselves righteous once more.. A saviour and redeemer in Jesus Christ. Obviously you disagree and it's your right to do so. However, as the Bible teaches this and Jesus said that no one gets to the Father except by Him..I believe Him and have accepted His surety on this matter. It makes more sense to me than an arbitrary God who can forgive or not forgive as God pleases.. Thereby ignoring His own divine standard of being just.

There are over 30 prophecies concerning the Crucifixion in the Old Testament alone to include a few


in Genesis Chapters 3


It is recorded in Genesis 3:14-15, "So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."


Genesis Chapters 5


"Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the Blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort."


In Psalm 22 there are many verses which clearly look forward to the Crucifixion.... As there is also in Isaiah 52


Isaiah 53


3: "He is despised and rejected by men, a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. …..he was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4: Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows


5: But He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.


6: the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.


7: He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth


9: And they made His grave with the wicked - but with the rich at His death

11: for He shall bear their iniquities.


12: because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

Jesus Himself said... "He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it. Mark 9 30:32

And also ..

Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life". Matthew 20 17:19

You do not understand the nature of God that is revealed in the Bible.. God is Spirit, and God is His Word.. Eternal and uncreated. The verses that express Gods Holy Spirit and His Word (Jesus) are too numerous to list. I don't know how you can deny God is Spirit to be worshipped in truth.. And how does God communicate with man if not through His word?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are essentially equal.. As they are all divine in nature. However, in the grand plan of redemption, they play certain roles, and these roles define authority and subservience. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Father is greater than I... Jesus commanded the Holy Spirit as he promised he would send the Spirit (comforter, advocate) in His name to guide the disciples. The father is supreme and neither the son (Word) or Spirit act contrary to Gods will.

We do not accept Christ in order to redeem ourselves from the sins of others..(parents or forefathers). But of our own sins... In order to become righteous before God, God was never humiliated or spat upon... Any pain and humiliation is a transitory state for the greater good of mankind. You don't see that.. That's fine. Jesus said ...

***12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15 12:15 ***

***“We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” John 4:13-18***

peace unto you.

And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same.

So there is no need for your savior then? Jesus who died for our sin !!

I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them.

We do not question God, we trust Allah wisdom, and it is with things that befit God almighty, because I know what your response will be then, why not believe God was put on the cross, humiliated, spat on, and killed, because that does not fit his attributes but God is the creator he created jin, human, ants etc it is not our place to question his creations.

Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for hisn, part in the fall of man.

I guess when I put him in exception, I knew that most people will understand what I meant but I guess you did not. I meant Iblis destiny is known, which is hell, so he is accountable for his action.


when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose?

He was not created as good servant he was a great servant, we do not believe he was an angel he was from Jin, who have free will, and accountability in front of God just like human.

Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?

Read the verse I have written from Quran, God said you have no authority over my servants
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65)

But some human will chose to follow statan’s path instead of God’s Path, do you think they should be rewarded?

We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created.

I know what you believe, I have stated that, we do not believe he was Angel, and Angel do not sin.

That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..

Yup I agree, so many chose Satan path, even though God’s Path is very clear, and that answer your point above too “Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?”

We do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family.

Pandora, how long did Adam peace be upon him lived?? According to your bible 930 years, tell me how many religions, sects etc can start in 100 year? Let alone 930 years. Please stop with twisting the truth so Adam had immediate family only for 930 years!!! So did he have 2 daughters, and two sons, and few animals for 900 years, after that human started multiplying !!!


Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit...

Lol of course you do not care about associating partners with God, and you guys get upset when we say you are not monistic religion

As for the rest of your reply, it actually deserve a new thread to address

I realize now that we are in a place were you could ignore somebody's respponse and simply state something that is repeated

The idea of inheritting sin nature is obscured , the text clearly contradicts it:


12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5: 12-14

14 clealry states that even those who were not sinful inherited the sin even at the time of moses peace be upon him the expression : Death in Adam , Life in Jesus



As for what you said about man cannot be forgiven by just repenting this contradicts the bible itself:
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jonah 3: 9-10

the repentence of David WHICH CLEARLY DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF AN ACTUAL SACRIFICE FOR A REPENTECE:

15O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise. 16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise

Psalms 51: 15-17


As for following jesus : first Jesus never ever in the bible said anything about trinity your explanation is a claim only equil to the claims OF HINDUS AND TRINITARIAN PAGANS IN ANCIENT ROME AND EGYPT it is a complete pagan idea . or else why is it not there????
I you claim that trinity is monotheism then hundus would become monotheist , they believe in 33 million gods manafestation of the supreme god , 33 million !!!!

We are the true followers of jesus , although he never mentioned or reffered to trinity as quoted in the gospels he preached for the one god only:

24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." 25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

Jesus reafirms here that he is sent from god ESPECIALLY WHEN HE IS ASKED WHO HE IS So we are the followers of the prophet jesus peace be upon him NOT YOU .

I will answer the so called prophecies about crusifiction in a seperate post

peace

The first has nothing to do with crusifiction, it is talking about a punishment to Adam and to eve and the serpent:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is talking about Adam and eve . In retorical manner it is talking about ALL of men and ALL of women

When was the head of the serpent bashed????

As for genesis chapter 5 it looks to me that you have copied and pasted this from some internet source without differentiating between the actual passages in the bible and the interpritation of the writer.
THIS PASSAGE DOES NOT EXIST IN GENESIS 5 , READ YOUR OWN BOOK CAREFULLY :
GENESIS 5: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...05&version=KJV

No prophecy of crusiction in psalms 22 only the statemnt god why have you forsaken me used by david , which is a statement used in :

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
this itself does not prove crusifiction rather it proves that christians and jews picture jesus and david peace be upon them as two men abandoned by god!!!!!

As for Isaih 53 , Isaiah 53 is a continuation of 52 where the ones talking here are the gentile kings reffering to israel as a singular NOT THE MESSIAH , describing its sorrows , grief , torture and son on
This text contains however many manipulations to dellude such a matter , For example :

the text in isiaih 9 says in his death , in the hebrew language it is translated as in his deaths (plural ). Did jesus die many deaths??? or just one according to you !!!!

Another example , in verse 10 it says :
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word seed here in both the KJB and the original hebrew refers to a biological son BUT jesus did not have a son !!!

So this text is reffering to israel as a whole in the tongue of gentile kings , this is how jews interperated it and this is what jews told christians within their debates:

I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned (i.e. Rabbis) I used these prophecies. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes. In this way he explained the text: "Your form shall be inglorious among men" and "those to whom he was not proclaimed shall see him" and "being a man in calamity"

origen the church father in his debates with jews


https://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex2/chapter17.html

Jazak Allah khair brother Muhmmad, I think your reply to the verses of so called

"prophecy of Crucifixion" deserve a new thread.

[QUOTE=huria;600986]And Christianity also teaches that we are all responsible for our own actions and are held accountable for the same.

So there is no need for your savior then? Jesus who died for our sin !!

yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin.. I guess that's why some muslims believe they go to hell first??? Obviously, as a Christian I'm going to have to go with Jesus on this one.. I don't believe he was lying when He said He is the only way to the Father. You take your own choice in this life, and we only get one chance at it.

I don't know what jinn are or why God saw the need to create them.

We do not question God, we trust Allah wisdom, and it is with things that befit God almighty, because I know what your response will be then, why not believe God was put on the cross, humiliated, spat on, and killed, because that does not fit his attributes but God is the creator he created jin, human, ants etc it is not our place to question his creations.

you may not question Allah.. But you do question God..YHWH. You doubt His word .. Jesus.. God decides His attributes, not us.

Also I do not agree with satan/iblis being somehow exempt for accountability. The bible teaches satan was very much held accountable and was eternally punished and cursed for hisn, part in the fall of man.

I guess when I put him in exception, I knew that most people will understand what I meant but I guess you did not. I meant Iblis destiny is known, which is hell, so he is accountable for his action.

Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God. All sin bar none comes down to the same thing.. Disobedience against God.. That if you like you can term as the "original sin". We are not born in this state, but as sin was introduced into the world then we are all born with the capacity within us to disobey God. Which we do every day we sin.

when was satan created as a "great servant of God"... For what purpose?

He was not created as good servant he was a great servant, we do not believe he was an angel he was from Jin, who have free will, and accountability in front of God just like human.

do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?

Read the verse I have written from Quran, God said you have no authority over my servants
(Verily, My servants — you have no authority over them. And All-Sufficient is your Lord as a Guardian.) (Quran 17:65)

But some human will chose to follow statan’s path instead of God’s Path, do you think they should be rewarded?

Very funny ... not.. Many follow satan's path without even realising they are on it..!! He is not called the greatest deceiver and the father of lies for nothing.

We believe that angels are indeed created with free will, as they worship God and do His will the same requirement being that worship has to be freely given born of love not from obligation.. Otherwise worship is meaningless. Satan was created an angel and because of his free will and vanity wished to become like the creator and not be of the created.

I know what you believe, I have stated that, we do not believe he was Angel, and Angel do not sin.

differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

That is the reason satan was banished along with the host that chose to follow.. As free will allows. It is there aim to beleaguer mankind and to tempt them away from Gods path. By choosing satan over God mankind chooses eternal death over eternal life..

Yup I agree, so many chose Satan path, even though God’s Path is very clear, and that answer your point above too “Why would God give leave to satan to willingly allow the latter to lead Gods creation... mankind to perdition?”

that is a big question which may be better served another time. Of course we know God is omniscient and surely did know that satan would disobey and would also be the cause of mankind's fall. We also know that God is omnipotent and nothing happens by chance but only according to His will. The Bibles teachings is clear on this matter.. But as I said maybe better for another thread.

We do not see Adam as a messenger as the father of mankind there was none to tell except animals and his immediate family.

Pandora, how long did Adam peace be upon him lived?? According to your bible 930 years, tell me how many religions, sects etc can start in 100 year? Let alone 930 years. Please stop with twisting the truth so Adam had immediate family only for 930 years!!! So did he have 2 daughters, and two sons, and few animals for 900 years, after that human started multiplying !!!

lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.. The lesson we take from Adam is how much we need God... Not how much God needs us.. And our worship. God exists weather we offer worship or not. It's to understand that following false gods is meaningless as only the ONE true God who has the power over all creation is worthy of worship. The messenger is not as important as the message.


Partners were immaterial as Adam had already "known" the nature of God, His Word and Spirit...

Lol of course you do not care about associating partners with God, and you guys get upset when we say you are not monistic religion

double lol... Please don't think your misunderstanding of Christianity as a monotheistic religion upsets us any.. It doesn't. God in Christianity has no partners He is absolute in His glory, His Word and His Spirit.

As for the rest of your reply, it actually deserve a new thread to address

as you wish... Don't go take too much trouble on my account.

Peace unto you.

Huria, I would go as far as to say the brothers reply is deserving of a new thread. However, if it is felt a new thread would better serve the topic then go ahead and make one.

In regards to the brothers replies, which I do have some issues with.. in order to give them worthy consideration I will reply when I have given it more time, as on first reading it seems rather disjointed and I want to be sure I understand what the brother is saying here. I find his shouting... (Constant use of upper case letters) off putting.. Sorry it has to be said.

Peace unto you

yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin..

wishy washytalk as always, answer direct what is the point of your savior dying on the cross for the sin?? What sin is he dying for??

We say it is Adam original sin?? They say no we do not inherit sin
So tell me Pandora are babies born sinless in your believe ? please answer direct once

Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God.

Why do you enjoy twisting the words, where did I say God made him this way??
I said he chose that way, he has free will he worshiped God, then he refused to obey God, so you think God has to reward him???

Do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

I do not twist your words, that is your job. Good or great, same thing he is just God creation, he chose to be good for certain time but after Adam’s creation he disobeyed God. Jinn like human have free will, and are accountable before God. So God did not chose his path he did it himself, been good before does not guarantee you eternal life forever.

differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

We do not believe that, why would angel’s sin be worse?? or no chance of redemption? Please think that through, so they have free will just like us, and God would forgive us but not them!!! Is that just?

As I said Islam teaches that Iblis was from Jinn who have free well, and difference between his sin and of Adam’s that Adam (pbuh) after committing a mistake (Eating the forbidden fruit), repented.

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." [Surat Al-'A`rāf 7:23]

And Allah accepts his repentence.

Qur'an 2:37 :Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

And Indeed, If Iblees had repented after committing the mistake, Allah would have forgiven him.

Qur'an 5:39 :But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.

Lol indeed, you see the difference between us and Christians, we believe what the Quran tell us. For you might just think it is another bible story, so you can’t gasp that 1000 years, and I did not say people started pagan worship, but he lived nearly 1000 years, and he was guidance to his children. The Quran does not tell us what happened in 1000 years but we can see what happen to people, that why they need a messenger after a messenger. After Jesus followers died, a new religion emerged and claimed to be from Jesus peace be upon him.

We are the son of Adam all of us, and if one of us is in the wrong path, it has nothing to do with him that what he was sent to teach people, as I wrote in summary the difference between us in this story

The whole story of Adam and Eve in the Quran clearly teaches us the that humans have freedom of will, responsibility for their choice of action and the consequent accountability before God. God says in the Quran: “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

With respect to big letters I have already explained the reason and purpose of that in a different subject. As for my answer being disjointed, I think you should reconsider such a statement since your previous response of prophecies shows huge mistakes and evidence of copying and pasting from christian websites. I am trying to be polite here but the fact is that you obviously have not read the old testament especially genesis nor have you read the context and history of the book of Isiaih or you would not have included such misunderstanding and mistakes in your previous response

peace

[QUOTE=huria;601031]yes there is... Out of Gods mercy the penalty for my sin has been paid, so I can be made righteous in order to humble myself before God and be repentant. You will bear the penalty of your sin..

wishy washytalk as always, answer direct what is the point of your savior dying on the cross for the sin?? What sin is he dying for??

wishy washy talk!!! Indeed. I tried to make it simple for you.. The Bible teaches that every human being has sinned. To sin is anything that is against Gods Holy Character. We all deserve judgement.. And because God is just He cannot allow sin to go unpunished, as God is eternal then also any sin against Him is also eternal.. Which follows a deserving punishment must be eternal. That punishment is eternal death. That is why we accept Jesus as our Saviour..because as Gods will His perfect sacrifice in His eternal word made flesh... Jesus. Thus we do not suffer eternal death and separation from God. You really should not mock what you do not understand. I am trying to explain why a Christian accepts Jesus as Saviour. You feel you don't need a saviour.. Where's the problem?

We say it is Adam original sin?? They say no we do not inherit sin
So tell me Pandora are babies born sinless in your believe ? please answer direct once

Yes babies are sinless. As they have committed no sin.
Well, for sure it makes no sense to me. You are asking me to believe that God created Satan as evil so as to be destined to hell.. I believe that God is holy and pure and all that is good, it is not possible for God to be the author of evil. Evil exists by nature of free choice. Satan authored his own destiny to Hell through his disobedience to God.

Why do you enjoy twisting the words, where did I say God made him this way??
I said he chose that way, he has free will he worshiped God, then he refused to obey God, so you think God has to reward him???

maybe the fault is mine that I possibly misunderstood your reply.. Maybe you are not as clear as you think you are.. And assume a level of knowledge about Islam in me that you have yourself. Which obviously is not the case. I have read the Quran.. In fact I have checked a few things today... However.. I am not a Muslim and do not have an army of Islamic scholars at my call to assist me the better. If I misunderstand something I read in the Quran then by all means correct me. I am trying to do the same with your misconceptions about Christianity. But... You are not interested in any points I make except to ridicule or attempt to prove in error... From your perspective. Then I see no point in dialogue because neither of us will gain anything useful.

Do not twist my words... I did not say he was created good.. I quoted what you said .. He was created a great servant. I asked why... For what purpose? Which you did not answer. But gave me a pocket account of what you believe about jin.. As the Bible does not mention Jin.. I don't know what they are, what is their purpose and why God created another strata of beings apart from angels and men.. This is your belief and it does not overly concern me. I just said I find the Bibles account more believable and gives us a better understanding of the nature of sin and it's effect.

I do not twist your words, that is your job. Good or great, same thing he is just God creation, he chose to be good for certain time but after Adam’s creation he disobeyed God. Jinn like human have free will, and are accountable before God. So God did not chose his path he did it himself, been good before does not guarantee you eternal life forever.

we obviously have widely different views on angels and Satan.. Which is odd if we are to accept that out respective scriptures are from the same God. Why was jinn not mentioned in the Bible? Every part of Gods glorious creation is recorded but no mention of jinn.. That's why I don't know anything about jinn or understand their purpose, you could have taken the time to constructively explain this..

differing of beliefs on this matter is immaterial. However, the Bible states angels did sin and for that they were cast from the heavens.. Difference being their sin is eternal with no chance of redemption.. Unlike mankind.

We do not believe that, why would angel’s sin be worse?? or no chance of redemption? Please think that through, so they have free will just like us, and God would forgive us but not them!!! Is that just?

i know you don't believe that! As I believe in the Bible then I do and it makes sense why if you understand how angels are portrayed in the Bible. The angels elect stayed with God and continue to do His will, the fallen reside with Satan and do his will. Consider that God created angels higher than man and therefore angels have a greater understanding of God than we do. Therefore.. For them to disobey God has a greater implication. They had choice they chose satan over God.. They condemned themselves.

As I said Islam teaches that Iblis was from Jinn who have free well, and difference between his sin and of Adam’s that Adam (pbuh) after committing a mistake (Eating the forbidden fruit), repented.

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." [Surat Al-'A`rf 7:23]

And Allah accepts his repentence.

Qur'an 2:37 :Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

And Indeed, If Iblees had repented after committing the mistake, Allah would have forgiven him.

Qur'an 5:39 :But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

That's why I looked up the Quran today because this what you say of Iblis being a jinn and not an angel... I remembered something and it puzzled me, you can I expect explain.. This sura.. 2:34

Sahih International
And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
Sorry about the tiny font I copied and pasted... From https://quran.com/2/34

my understanding here is God telling the ANGELS to prostrate before Adam.. Yet Iblees refused.. Does that not seem to include Iblees as part of the Angels? Why does it not say the angels and Iblees? Thereby implying Iblees was different from the angels.

And what on earth do you mean by "mistake" !!! The sin of disobedience against a Holy God can hardly be classed as a mere mistake. Do you view some sins as mistakes!!

lol... Like time span has that much importance. Or even the number of Adams progeny.. So by your hypothesis Adam was still not much good as a prophet.. Seeing the rise of pagan religions.. Did his own family fail to listen to him? For sure his sons did not as brother killed brother.

Lol indeed, you see the difference between us and Christians, we believe what the Quran tell us. For you might just think it is another bible story, so you can’t gasp that 1000 years, and I did not say people started pagan worship, but he lived nearly 1000 years, and he was guidance to his children. The Quran does not tell us what happened in 1000 years but we can see what happen to people, that why they need a messenger after a messenger. After Jesus followers died, a new religion emerged and claimed to be from Jesus peace be upon him.

Sorry but this rather flippant reply does nothing to further understanding. Unlike the Quran the Bible does tell us what happened in the intervening years.. Are you referring to Islam as the new religion.. Because for sure it has nothing of the teachings if Jesus? And it is as different from the previous revelation as could be.. You do not mention how long after the "followers" died this occurred. By followers I take it to mean disciples.. What of the thousands of followers that followed them? Did they all just disappear????

We are the son of Adam all of us, and if one of us is in the wrong path, it has nothing to do with him that what he was sent to teach people, as I wrote in summary the difference between us in this story

The whole story of Adam and Eve in the Quran clearly teaches us the that humans have freedom of will, responsibility for their choice of action and the consequent accountability before God. God says in the Quran: “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden.” (Quran 35:18)

the Bible also teaches we have freedom of will, and are responsible for our choices. Where it differs is the importance it places on sin and it's eternal consequences for us, the chasm that sin creates between us and God is far wider and deeper than we can breach alone and for that we were given a Saviour. God has to be just as He is merciful and above all God is love.

Peace unto you...

don't know why the font has changed to tiny.

Apologies I missed that explanation. It does seem disjointed and that's why I need to read it carefully. As I don't have the facility to post directly on this forum or even edit my posts for errors as other muslims members have, I have to wait till my post appears on the forum, there have been many times it is not as I had wished but am at that point unable to effect any change. I see in my post the bits I copied there was a table of facts which did not copy successfully.. This could be to do with the device I use an iPad rather than PC.. Some functionality is lost.

I will ignore your last comment.. In regards to my lack of knowledge on the OT. You make a great many mistakes yourself, so I don't think it polite or useful in pointing out the imperfections of others. I try my best to explain to the best of my ability and with honesty. I am not a theologian but an ordinary Christian woman. If that's not good enough for you then we have no further need to converse and I hope you find someone who's intellect matches your own.

Peace unto you.