ِAs for the quran , your understanding of the word of god is different than ours . The word of god in Islam means a refference to the word be which god said to create jesus in the womb of his mother and the same word which was used to create Adam :

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.Quran 3: 59

So he did come in flesh and blood as Adam did

As for the passage of Ananias and Sapphira it does not show that the holy spirit is god !!!! you are twisting the context :

1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."…

No way in the context does it say that holy spirit is god , rather the holy spirit because it was with them from the time of jesus , also this context shows that he lied to god for his stealing. The lying to the holy ghost meant lying to the holy ghost within peter and the deciples (in other words to them ):





"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

The part about not lying to men means that ultimately you are lying to god

peace

God is spirit and He is holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. That verse says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God. You don't understand Christianity and the disciples intentions and understanding we do because we are the people of the Book. you are not and don't understand. Yes, the Quran says Jesus is the word be, but this make a argument for Jesus being the I am He claimed to be just as God told Moses I am that I am. Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" Did you not know and hasn't it been told to you from the beginning that I am is a form of Be? Jesus is the word "Be" God use to create all things. The word of God is uncreated and eternal. This is where you error not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. The Bible is not corrupted as you would have us believe. Even the Quran proves it. You infer from it whast you want to believe; therefore I can do the same.

Sura 3:3 says:



He has sent down upon thee the Book with truth,
confirming what was before it,
and he sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime. [Arberry]

The parallel statement in regard to this "sending down" is captured even better in Pickthall's translation which reads:



He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth
confirming that which was (revealed) before it,
EVEN AS He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

"Even as" = "in just the same way." The Arabic itself doesn't say "just as" but it makes the exact same statement about both, and has no hint that it should be understood in a different way. Furthermore have a look at Sura 4:47, stating:

You who have been given the Book,
believe in what We have sent down,
confirming what _IS_ with you. [Arberry]
O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given!
Believe in what We have revealed
confirming THAT WHICH YE POSSESS. [Pickthall]

Can anyone really be justified in saying that the Qur'an does not speak about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians which they have in their possession at the time of Muhammad but about some other "scriptural entity" which we really can't know what it is or was, ...?? You Muslims make the claim that it is certainly NOT speaking about the scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they are today, even though there is no doubt that they are the same as what the Jews and Christians had in the 7th century. [The New Testament is today translated from manuscripts that date 250 years before Muhammad]. The onus is on you along with the burden of proof that the Scriptures we have today aren't the same as during your prophet's life time and before; moreover, the burden of proof is on you to show how, when, where, and why the Scripture were corrupted and why God chose not to preserve what he promised would be established forever and what Allah commanded we stand on as people of the Book. How can you say you have something better to offer us people of the Book?

Peace

You do not understand christianity so I am not surprised when you make such huge mistakes with the Quran

The actual translation of Quran 3: 3 is :

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.



No even as here , Picktalls own view does not matter since this Even as is does not go with the Arabic context nor its meaning . و انزل not كما انزل

However even if it says what you are claiming it would not change anything since this verse is talking about the uncorrupted scriptures and I have already stated this before but you as usual chose to ignore

Sura 4: 47 You stripped it from its context probably because you copied and pasted it from others , here is verses 46 -47 in their right translation :
46 Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.47 O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.

The tafseer:(ibn katheer's tafseer) verse 46:

(there are some who displace words from (their) right places) meaning, they intentionally and falsely alter the meanings of the Words of Allah and explain them in a different manner than what Allah meant,

And say: "We hear your word and disobey) saying, "We hear what you say, O Muhammad, but we do not obey you in it,'' as Mujahid and Ibn Zayd explained. This is the implied meaning of the Ayah, and it demonstrates the Jews' disbelief, stubbornness and disregard for Allah's Book after they understood it, all the while aware of the sin and punishment that this behavior will earn for them. Allah's statement


Tafseer ibn katheer verse 47:

Allah commands the People of the Scriptures to believe in what He has sent down to His servant and Messenger, Muhammad ,



Your understanding is again like pandora based upon the misunderstanding between

manipulation and replacement. We do not say that all the bible was corrupted (replaced) or

you would not have similarities with us like the story of Moses rather there has been many

manipulation to the original text but some of it still exist one was the prophets name in

some of its original state


AS for your first answer :

You have again proved to me that you lack serious knowledge about islamic beliefs , you

apply christian standards to islamic texts which is clearly ridicolous. The word be which

god used in the Quran was not the same word he used to create jesus , I already explained

this but you applied your understanding of John 1 on the islamic tafseer and the passage

when I infact was not talking about John 1 rather showing the difference between the our

beliefs when it comes to the understanding of the word of god .

His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

Surah Yasin verse 82


Also god describes the creation of jesus as the creation of Adam by the word be :


Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.


ِAl imran verse 59


This explains the word reffered to in this verse :
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

ِAl nisa verse 171

So the word of god from islamic understanding means the word be that was sent down to create jesus in the womb of mary just like the word be which god said when he created Adam

Tafseer of verse 171:

(Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from ﴿created by﴾ Him;) `Isa is only one of Allah's servants and one of His creatures. Allah said to him, `Be', and he was, and He sent him as a Messenger. `Isa was a word from Allah that He bestowed on Maryam, meaning He created him with the word `Be' that He sent with Jibril to Maryam. Jibril blew the life of `Isa into Maryam by Allah's leave, and `Isa came to existence as a result. This incident was in place of the normal conception between man and woman that results in children. This is why `Isa was a word and a Ruh (spirit) created by Allah, as he had no father to conceive him. Rather, he came to existence through the word that Allah uttered, `Be,' and he was, through the life that Allah sent with Jibril.

Source : tafseer ibn katheer

As for finally what you said about the spirit in the passage I quoted again you are just

clearly throwing blunt acussations without actually answering , what you are saying is that

God is the holy ghost because god is the holy ghost !!!!!

You still failed to answer that the man lied to the deciples and the reply was that he lied to

the holy ghost with agreement to this passage here :




Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

So this actually does not prove trinity at all


The OT is clear against any kind of trinitarian belief:


God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Numbers 23: 19

This should be enough but misinterpritation is a powerful tool which Satan uses to delude and dissuade people from the truth


However for the passage before Abraham I am the actual translation of the greek text is actually :


I have seen Abraham before he was even born

This actually describes the context much better and is the reasonable answer to the jews at that time :

56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"


peace

You are actually telling me I don't understand Christianity. LOL. I am a Christian. What are you talking about? When I read that, it tells me you don't know what you talking about. I am not trying to prove God's tri unity to anybody on this forum. You are trying to force me into discussing God's essence when you don't know what it is yourself. Since you are so down on the trinity explain God's absolute oneness. This is a comment of mine you continually ignore along with not explaining what three is Allah saying to desist from saying. Is it the son, mother and father as he alludes to or the father, son and Holy Spirit or is it the son, Mary and Allah as the third person.

One can intelligently infer that Allah didn't mean the father, son and Holy Spirit. You know more about the Christian trinity than your god and prophet knew in the 7th century, and you are telling me I don't understand Islam much less Christianity??? This is laughable to me. Did not Allah say they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three? Who considered Allah the third of three or the third person of the three. Please don't try and use semantics by saying he meant a third because that would be insulting to anyone's intelligence (he said "the third" not a third; besides, no Christian believes God comes in thirds or that Jesus was a freak of half God and half man, LOL).

To be a Muslim one has to jump through to many hoops and loops IMO. You quoted: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22) and you said, "So this actually does not prove trinity at all" I never claimed this proves the trinity, but it does prove God is Jesus' father, and you deny it, and deny that Jesus is the son of God even after you know God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. If you could believe that verse and the one you quoted, you would be closer to truth than you are now.

You don't believe it, and you think you're clever, because you use the lame excuse that the Bible is corrupted. The Quran is not clear on what it means by manipulation and replacement, and of course you don't believe all the Bible is corrupted, because Islam has imperfectly borrowed from it such things as the virgin birth of Jesus (from the NT Bible.)

So why would anyone want to add a corruption such as Jesus' death and resurrection for our sin in the Bible and risk their lives to preach a tale? I am seeing deception at play and Allah admits he is the best of deceivers and proves it by making something appear to be true that wasn't such as the death of Christ. Why would Allah have to use trickery to save Jesus? Why would he have to do best what the unbelievers were doing (the use of deception, schemes, lies, trickery and all other such things)?

Besides, I see manipulation and replacement more in what Uthman did to the Quran. Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon supposedly written on golden plates from God and started another religion claiming to be the seal of prophets and confirming that which has come before with a new word to nail truth down for the world and millions follow this false prophet. The warning Jesus gave is clear as crystal. That is to beware of false prophets that were to come after Him, and if we don't heed His words, we are sure to be over taken by them. Satan knows Scripture better than anyone, and he is a master mocker of God, and he is the father of lies. The writing is on the wall my friend.

peace

Also god describes the creation of jesus as the creation of Adam by the word be

I have seen Abraham before he was even born

This actually describes the context much better and is the reasonable answer to the jews at that time :

[/SIZE][/FONT]56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"


peace

[/QUOTE]It doesn't describe it much better, because the Jews knew Jesus was saying He was God; that is why they wanted to stone Him for saying what He did. "Before Abraham was I am" is exactly what Jesus said and meant. Jesus has seen all people and prophets including Adam before their creation. The Jews wouldn't have wanted to stone Him for saying I knew Abraham before he was born. You are coming to faulty conclusions.
Peace

Your response shows a lack of info AGAIN

First God said in the Quran :
لقد كفر الذين قالو ان الله ثالث ثلاثة
ثالث ثلاثة means a third NOT THE THIRD but ibviously you don not know Arabic so LOL you are killing your own argument which is pathetic since you based it all without knowing a simple Arabic
So you are insulting your own intelligence LOL !!!!!!!

Second : You claim that I ignored your question, well if you were actually paying attention TO YOUR OWN comments you would have known that this question was asked to me in another subject and webpage which I have answered yesterday in that same webpage . It is not my problem that you can't keep up

Third: One example of your own misunderstanding and also shows how you can't keep up is this statement by you :



MY GOD!!!! This was a reponse to your argument that the Holy Ghost is God , This has nothing to do with our discussion about Jesus , this is why you can't get it and you probably won't .

Fourth: What has the corruption of the bible to do with our discussion clearly you are hurt , good because the truth hurts . Remember I am not talking about the corruption of the bible , I was talking about the holy ghost and the trinity so becarefull.

Fifth: Why would someone add ??? well if someone in the Fifth century AD (where ONLY COPIES of the orginal gospels is circulating throughout turkey , egypt , north Africa, rome , south Europe ) believes in all the 4 gospels and starts to right down the bible and looks at the older manuscripts and shows a lot of contradictions in the bible which hits the core of christianity , he is going to want to settle these variations in order to remove any kind of contradictions.

Sixth : You can't deny these additions to the bible , it is not there in the oldest manuscripts, this is also shown in prints in the margins of the bible today just like I have shown you in a link but yet you ignored it.

peace

​This passage disproves trinity and the whole concept of the divinity of Jesus peace be upon him

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


Numbers 23: 19

Your use of this passage thus only serves to show your misunderstanding. Read the text carefully.

3 – To be a man is not the same as to become a man. God became a man (John 1: 1, 14), not is a man. In the Old Testament, He took a form of a man [Genesis 18], not became a man. Furthermore, if we examine Numbers 23:19 closely, we will see that God is comparing Himself with men’s behavior (they lie, they change their mind, they can destroy the people that anger them), not being. It does not say or imply anywhere in this text that God could not take the form of a man if God so wished to do so. For we know anything is possible with God.


Numbers 23:19 says, “God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it?”


God is not a man, in a sense that:


1 - He cannot lie like men do (which I can see you may have difficulty understanding since Allah is the greatest deceiver according to Surah 3:54)


2 - He does not change His mind like men do (Again, Allah can change his mind any time he wants according to Surah 2:106, so maybe that’s why Muslims cannot understand this).


3 - God does keeps His promises.. Unlike men who constantly break theirs, even to God! Yet God still shows His mercy to those undeserving.


well.. You should know.

Peace

In the OT three people came to visit Abraham and he referred to them as Lord not lords. There is nothing in the Bible that disproves God's tri unity. You cannot see this only because you want to believe differently. We have told you that Jesus is the word of God as the Scripture states; therefore, it is impossible that God's word is less in nature than God Himself. God has given us some understanding, a mind and heart to know that God's word is eternal and uncreated.
How can God be exalted above His word? Think and pray about it instead staying on a soap box forum disadvantaged to us Christians as you push a platform that contradicts God's will. It is written, "God exalts His word above all His name. " Muslims and JWs exalt the name above God's word. Jesus is the word who was with God and who was God. You will never win over this truth, because it is God's will and message from the beginning. Jn. 1

peace

Pandora first of you need to know the rules in debating in this blog:

1. You are not allowed to keep altering the subject of the debate in each response

2. You are not allowed to throw accusations without proof , accusations that has nothing to do with the subject of discussion

3. You are not allowed to fill the blog pages with responses that have no meaning in a sense that it is not related to the topic of discussion

Points 1. , 2., 3. , of your understanding of god violates the rules of the blog

HOWEVER I will answer the absured accusations and mistinterpritation of the verses of the quran , BUT it will be short

First the deceivement : God in all these verses deceives inly those infidels who are tryung to deceive the prophets of god or the believers and who are attacking them like pharoh and his soccerres or when pharoh attacked the israelites and god saved them by splitting the red sea . God in simple terms plots against those who plot against him and his prophets : from the same verse you stated 3:54
And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.
verse within the context :

But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.

Our Lord! We believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the apostle, so write us down with those who bear witness.

And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners. (Surah Ale-Imran 3:52-54)

There are many other verses but the point is the same , the decivement is against those who are plotting to deceive against the believers and the prophets of god. Deceivement here is planning.

Deceivement in the bible :

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. (Jeremiah 4:10)

God deceiving prophets !!!!:

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)


These were examples from your bible

As for changing mind , where in the world does the verse say that ???:

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

verse 2: 106


clearly you do not know the difference between arbitration and changing mind


you should read your own bible :


And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Exodus 32: 14


And we have already spoke about this passage before


Now to the ACTUAL TOPIC :

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1. Jesus as belived by christians to be god is actually reffered to in the NT as the son of man :
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Luke 9:58


For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


Matthew 18:11

Yet I know what you will say which is that this is just a metaphore not to be taken literal , and

the passage in numbers was talking about a god that do not repent

This can be simply answered by that the context does not serve such interpritations :

God distintively denied that he was man first :

Meaning God cannot lie because he is not a man , All men lie

not in a sense rather literally because if the passage is what you said then it should be

something like this :

God does not lie like all men or god is not a man who lies


So asside from god shaping as a man in the OT (although we muslims and some jews do not

belive that ) , God in the passage is clearly denying that he is not man nor a son of man

1. I was answering your post.

2. I was expressing an opinion not making accusations.

3. Does this rule apply to all? Or just non muslims? Because from where I'm standing you have no problem filling posts with copious amounts of irrelevant points.

???

HOWEVER I will answer the absured accusations and mistinterpritation of the verses of the quran , BUT it will be short

First the deceivement : God in all these verses deceives inly those infidels who are tryung to deceive the prophets of god or the believers and who are attacking them like pharoh and his soccerres or when pharoh attacked the israelites and god saved them by splitting the red sea . God in simple terms plots against those who plot against him and his prophets : from the same verse you stated 3:54

Does making something appear to be what it is not come under the remit of deception?



if you read in context you will see these verses apply to false Prophets. The Bible says a great many things about false prophets, that's why we are on our guard against them. We are not told to believe in all prophets! Oops.. Forgot you don't like context except when in your own scripture.

These were examples from your bible

As for changing mind , where in the world does the verse say that ???:

haven't we just.. You do seem to go over the same old points time and time again.

Now to the ACTUAL TOPIC :

I explained it as best I could.. as Christians see and understand it. Quite frankly I can't be held responsible if you cannot understand or accept my explanation. You constantly misinterpret the Scriptures and in your arrogance you cannot see that yours is NOT the only opinion, and as far as biblical scripture is concerned you are certainly in error. I think I shall in future give your posts a swerve.. So as to not cause you any further trouble. Your obtuseness certainly cabbages my head!!!

Still you are loved.

Peace upon you.

First : you were not answering my post this answer had nothing to do with my post , you threw accusation without stating the actual verse within the context so it does not apply as an opinion

Second: The drowning of the army of pharoh is a deceivement against him which he plotted to deceive Moses and the belivers , yet you still did not answer to my response !!!!!

Third: here is the context :
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I theLord will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
Where is it talking about false prophets??? , oops I forget you know nothing about your own bible !!!!!!!

Here is the commentary of the text so you wouldn't accuse me of misinterpirating the text:

and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; this explains what such persons would come to a prophet for, Ezekiel 14:4; and exposes their hypocrisy:I the Lord will answer him by myself; not by the prophet to whom he comes, but by himself: or, "in my word", as the Targum; yet not by words, but by blows; not in mercy, but in wrath; and in such manner, that it shall appear to come from the Lord, and to be according to truth and justice.Source: Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Most importantly so deceivement is ok now against those deceiving plotting false prophets

Fourth : yes we discussed this before and you couldn't answer but it was within another topic

I did not see any answer concerning the last statement rather you insulted me , any ways this interpritation is not just mine rather ALSO the jews

peace

God takes credit for deceiving, but it is really the false prophets and the disobedient deceiving themselves that God takes credit for. Those who refuse the love of truth God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie. This is not God claiming to be a deceiver or the best of deceivers. Satan is the father of lies and he can claim that title. He is also the author of confusion.
You are kicking against the bricks friend, and you will not get far from here you stand now. I tell you in love that you are in this strong delusion I speak of, but I cannot convince your, and I pray that God does before your fate is sealed for eternity.
peace

For the love of Ada...what do you want from me!!!! I am starting to think you are playing some kind of game here. You have avoided all questions asked of you, yet demand all your questions are addressed. When I try my utmost to give you an answer.. You don't like it or disagree with it.. Which quite frankly my face isn't bothered about.. Ok.. May hap I waffle on but hey that's me.. If you don't like it then don't engage in dialogue.

I read Burninglights answers which are concise and to the point..... But you don't like his answers either! He has addressed your points and given great detail, all of which you brush off with distain. You seem to think your answers and posts are clear but really they are not, at least I don't find them so. You accuse others of going off topic and prevaricating when you are clearly a master at this. It seems like you are attaching blame to us because you do not like the answers we give to your questions, when you yourself keep introducing so many aspects into one post it's sometimes not even clear to see a connection between them let alone what they have to do with the topic in hand.

It's sad to say there is an underlying nastiness to this forum and it's treatment of its non Muslim members, that we are to be kept at a disadvantage in regards to posting. Is this how you wish to be seen and understood?

I shall be away for awhile, so may not be able to contribute. Please may I ask Could you choose A question out of the many you claim have not been answered.. That's ONE question, keep it clear what you mean by your chosen question and what aspect would you like answering. Please ... Do not add numerous bullet points from 1 to 10 .. 12.. 14 or whatever. I will try to the best of my ability to answer it. Or we can draw a line and move on.. In which case I wish you well in your endeavours. Your choice.

Peace.

This is just a smokescreen and cherry picking from your own interpritation .

The passage is clear it does not say that they are deceiving themselves , it is NOT talking about false prophets . The commentary and interpritation which I quoted and you IGNORED (as usual) contradicts your own conclusions

My friend you are struggling with your own delusions in order to avoid the obvious.

it seems that you are convincing yourself with such a response

peace