We know about those interpolations because we didn't have a Christian Uthman to burn our original copied manuscripts

Hi Burninglight, i'm sorry, but i did not understand what you mean.

You should not use John 5:7 as proof of the trinity because it is an interpolation that is not found in the earliest of manuscripts. Christian scholars found this out many years ago because we have a wealth of manuscripts to show what was possibly interpolated later. It was widely thought.. As it showed up in some manuscripts as a note.. Possibly of explanation, in the margin.. Over time it was found to be added at the end.

This is not new stuff. The concept of the trinity in the Bible is simply a doctrine developed by years of study of the Bible as a whole. It's not Biblical, and you won't find the word "Trinity" found there. The concept, however is.

Just because you don't understand something or don't believe it doesn't make it a lie. The Trinity makes perfect sense in presenting Gods nature.... The Bible shows us YHWH is a God who seeks community with His creation... A God of love. Who demonstrated the greatest act of agape love towards us.. His sometimes undeserving creation. It may be difficult if not impossible to explain within the bounds of human logic... But that does not mean it is irrational .. But just that we do not have the capacity to know all God is.

Peace.

No need for apologies. What I meant was you are pointing out things that were added to the Bible that were not a part of the original manuscripts and scholars agree with these interpolations and so do I. The point is when someone adds or takes away from the Bible we always can find out what has been added or taken away. And God said anyone who adds to the Bible will be punished with added plague and anyone who takes away will have taken from them their portion of the tree of life.

Muslims cannot prove wholesale corruption of the Bible nor can they prove the perfect preservation of the Quran. We know God's word was given in the torah and gospel. The only gospel we have is according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is enough and God allowed that to be what we have in possession. To these we hold fast.

Who said that?!
I can response on every words in the Bible, do you need i to do that?
We can confirmation brought by the Quran is true, do you need i to do that?
Have you read the Quran in the past?
Read the Quran then say what you said!
Mrs. Pandora, you have confirmed the Christian religion is trifling.
the God is not a love, the God is a God, if you dont know what is the God's recipes, so you shouldn't talking about God as you like!
The Trinity is false and void, if you don't believes with legitimate guides, so you should using a mental guides.
Are you understand?

Greetings, your post proves to me why I should not be Muslim. Maybe Allah is not love, and for sure there is little of love towards Allah in the Quran. I think you truly do believe that what you show to Allah is love but it seems to be that you measure this love by your own understanding of what you think love is... Understandable if Allah has not told you you are loved, or has not demonstrated this love towards you.. How then will you know the standard God sets for love? There are suras that show the conditional love of Allah that is more an expression of approval than love.. That Allah loves those who do good, and has no love for those who do evil. Yet, even to gain this approval you still have no guarantee. Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah? Or is this love born out of a need for Allah's approval or fear of Allah's wrath if you get it wrong?

I do not talk of God of the Bible as I like, I talk of God as He has been revealed to me in the Bible.. Through the Prophets, who spoke and demonstrated His love, and through Christ Jesus through whom we experience in part what Gods love truly means. I'm not sure why you bring in the Trinity.. Again.. It obviously bothers you.. Yet why it should concern you so as you do not believe it anyway is beyond my understanding. Although of course the Trinity does in fact demonstrate Gods love perfectly. For God, His Word and Spirit exist in a perfect community of love, we are a reflection of this. Our need to love and be loved is an intrinsic part of our being which is reflected in the trinity. How does a unitary being know love.. Let alone demonstrate it towards others?

Prophet Moses said... "What does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul". Deuteronomy 10:12

To walk in His ways... To love Him.. To serve Him with all our hearts and souls.. We can only do this because we know God is so worthy of this and more, that we are joyful to love God thus, everything we do must reflect this love.. Not to earn Gods love, because we know we already have that... But to return it in kind. Our love towards God cannot be born of our own hopes of any rewards and needs for future forgiveness.. But has to be freely given.

Jesus reaffirmed this message... "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment." Matthew 22:37-38

The second great commandment .. Was to love other as we love ourselves..



"And this is love, that we follow his commandments; this is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you follow love." 2 John 6

Truly faithful obedience is born of love, to follow Gods commandments out of love rather than fear.

There is nothing trifling about Gods divine love, it's because of Gods love the world turns and we live and breathe. It's because of Gods agape love for us that we shall share in the glorious community that is God for eternity. All the Prophets knew of this love that is God.. Why did Prophet Mohammed understand this most important facet of God? When I see your posts it saddens me that you don't see this most important point of how important love is to mankind.. Nothing bad can come from love.. Only good. Think on that.

Peace, blessings and love I extend to you.

Very good post here. God's Love never fails. Jesus said greater love has no man than to lay down his life for a friend. That is exactly what Jesus did for us even while we were His enemies; therefore, our God proves to us that His love for us is without condition.

Ok Mrs. Pandora:
For First Paragraph: I said: "God is not love", i mean: God isn't only love, we muslims love our god too much, and he love us, Islam is religion calls to love, but not love only, but the christian religion calls only to love and safe, but it don't said what christians will to work in they life.
For what's Allah loves: Allah loves all muslims, good man, bad man, etc... but he don't love any man from other religions, for anyone who do evil: he said: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves do not despair of the mercy of Allah that Allah forgives all sins".
For your questions: "Do muslims truly show agape love towards Allah?": If we don't love Allah for his graces, we love he for his commands, but he did lot of things who make our loves he too much.
Now, if you will not think carefully, i was written this subject for muslims who talking with christians, Are you muslim? No? So exit this subject and talking with me in message or other subjects, concept? I'm ready to that.

Then you should say what you mean. You imply that Christianity is somehow weakened by its emphasis on love, whereas the opposite is true. Love is the purest, and strongest force imaginable. Nothing can fail in love all good is born out of love.

This is your belief... Which differs from mine. YHWH.. Loves all who submit to Him as the One True God. Because YHWH is bigger and greater than His creation.. YHWH does not need us. It is us who need YHWH... We know nothing we can do by our own efforts can make us righteous before YHWH. It is by grace alone that we be saved.

Muslims talking with Christians?? I do not understand am I not a Christian? Or are you saying you would prefer me not to contribute to this dialogue? If so that is fine by me. Your wish.

peace to you.

What I am trying to say is Jn 5:7 is old news and we know it was added to the original manuscripts by an over zealous scribe, but we wouldn't have known it if we had an Uthman like Islam had who burned all the original copies of the Quran and recompiled it after Islam's messenger's death.
Uthman use the help of text from Hafsah's copy, and after her death, her copy was destroyed. Why? So, no Muslim can now proof perfect preservation of the Quran, but the Christians didn't destroy the copies we had from the beginning, and we can compare and contrast when people put the Bible to print for correctness which is something Muslims cannot do. You only have the non prophet Uthman's recompilation of the Quran in you possession who acted as Allah's editor, IMO. I hope I have made myself clear now.

Pandora has explained to you correctly as well.

Islam is a religion were man is trying to reach God, but Christianity is about God reaching for man.

Why would your god leave you in spiritual uncertainty about your eternal destiny? No Muslim can answer this unfairness of Allah. Why would God leave Muslims in the dark about their hereafter when it is for all eternity. We know our eternal destiny God has made it clear.

Peace

Burning Light: If you don't know anything about ISLAMIC History, so don't say anything for defiance about your religion, Usman bin Affan was burn the false copies of Quran, not true copies, Companions saved the true copy, but one of they, was copy the Quran lot of false copies, then Usman bin Affan check about those, then he was find an error in those copies, then he was gone to burn those, then he was copy the true copy of Quran lot of copies, so Quran now is really true, if you read Quran, you will make sure about Quran.
But the bible now is "really distorted", if you was read it carefully, you will make sure it was distorted!
If you want to guides from me, tell me and i'll say to you.

Pandora: Can you understand my words before write response about it?Your response haven't link by my words absolutely! or my english language is bad because i'm arabian.

I confess I found your post difficult to read and as a consequence may have misunderstood the meaning of your post. I'm sure your English language is better than my Arabic.

peace to you

are you wishing for Christians to prove to you the trinity? There are many threads on here that deal with this topic already.. I am not sure it is possible to explain this doctrine to muslims because they are handicapped by their very narrow understanding of God. IMHO I do not see Islam shows the nature of God in any meaningful way we can understand... And as love does not figure very highly as one of the attributes of Allah then this also puts you at a disadvantage. As I said before it comes down to love.. Which Christians see as the main force of God, because through love everything is made. That's why the trinity doctrine makes sense to Christians but not to muslims who see Allah as a unitary being. A unitary being cannot know or demonstrate love.

If there is a particular aspect you feel has not been addressed before then I will attempt to make it clearer for you. The trinity doctrine is not biblical, neither is it a lie... And simply because you do not understand the concept does not make it a lie. You raised many points in your original post, maybe you could choose one to start with that causes you the most problem and I shall attempt to explain it for you. Personally.. I don't see the trinity is any kind of issue to get tied up in knots about. It's basically a doctrine men have arrived at after centuries of scriptural studies in order to explain the nature of God, the better for mans understanding. We can never know all there is to God, for God is a mystery and mankind has not been granted the ability to fully understand His nature. We can only hope to understand what God has chosen to reveal to us through His Word.. That is Jesus.. And His Prophets.

Peace to you.