If you say so.

Why was it necessary for Jesus to speak from the cradle? Was being born of a virgin not miracle enough?? For me personally the annunciation by Angel Gabriel was proof enough of Jesus status. The only reason that Jesus appears to speak from the cradle.. Was to somehow clear His mother Mary of calumny of those who would accuse her of being unchaste. Which as Mary had God with her for protection it was not necessary for the baby Jesus to speak thus.

Ok! then I think Islam is wrong saying the people of the book corrupted their scriptures.. I find the verses from the Quran you claim backs up this view you have to ambiguous to be taken as cast iron proof of such a claim. I have asked various members at various times to bring forth the "proof" one member at least claimed to have at his fingertips.. Which was who corrupted the scripture? When was it done? And why was it thought to be necessary to change the word of God? The last point.. Given the promised punishments that would befall any who altered Gods word. No evidence was forth coming. How I don't feel it unreasonable to expect some kind of proof of this sort... If one only has otherwise ambiguity and supposition.

well.. That's a given. Why would you suppose otherwise? Prophets are just men.. They are tools of God. However.. I wonder if prophet Mohammed would acknowledge the miracles attributed to him today by muslims?

I have heard it said that the Quran was in fact the only miracle Prophet Mohammed claimed for himself. I'm not sure how it seen as miracle.. But you do so that is fine.

Firstly, I cannot accept the "clay birds" can be attributed to Jesus at all. Due to the same reason as the "talking from the cradle".. It has dubious provenance and there is no evidence that it could be attributed to Jesus. Out of the hundreds of miracles Jesus performed during relatively short lifetime, the clay birds has absolutely no sound reasoning behind it, no lesson to be learnt, no benefit to anyone. It seems nothing more than a party trick.. And one thing the miracles of Lord Jesus were NOT.. Were party tricks. It just does not fit.

When it comes to the will of Allah , this sign is enough :

And I have the feeling there are appearant reasons for Christ peace upon him to speak in cradle other than being a miracle and clearing his mother's name . One is that the stubborn won't believe he was actually born of a virgin and will claim things or that he's not her child . As for other reasons , I let that to who knows better than I do . And what exactly do you mean by Jibreel annuciating Christ peace upon them ?

Fianlly !

I am no expert when it comes to this subject to be honest . But what on Earth do these questions have to do with the matter ? Do we need to know who corrupted the Bible and when and how and why to know that it was ? If I see something altered from its origin , I don't need to know who did it to know that it's altered . That's to clear it up .

Secondly , would you take it as proof that there are different versions - not translations - of the Bible today and before in history ? Or that there are Christians who admit the original scriptures are lost ? These are points to go from . But as said , I'm no expert and thus I won't talk about something I don't know as if I do .

First , we don't attribute them to HIMSELF . Secondly , we're not the ones who "attribute" them , there are countless narrations about miracles happening at his time by the will of Allah . That's because Sunnah is the second source of revelation after Quran . Not to mention how accurate it is narrated to the digree of knowing every single man in the chain .

You heard wrong . Truely , the main miracle of the prophet peace upon him was the noble Quran . The main one for Moses was the staff turning into a snake and the hand shining . The main ones for Christ were the birth from a virgin and speaking in cradle . Peace upon them all . However , there are other miracles as well . Moses had the plagues which directed to Pharoh and his people and how they were lifted after him asking Allah . Christ had curing the ill and reviving the dead and others . Muhammad had the splitting of the moon , the crying log , satisfying large groups of people with little food , and others . Peace upon them all .

As for the noble Quran , it is a miracle in that no one can rival its eloquence . Narrations and history records tell about many who admitted it is unrivaled or some who tried to only to admit later that it is impossible . Romans and Persians had spies in the Arabian lands and would know on the spot if someone succeeded but they didn't . That's so no one makes the lame claim of "of course the barbaric Muslims would kill anyone who does" as if they had the power to do so - they didn't because no one did - when htey were oppressed in Makkah for 10 years !

With all honesty , just because YOU don't see a "sound reason" behind them doesn't mean they're suspicious or whatever you call it . I could say the same about the Christian belief that he could turn water into wine or that he walked on water . But no .

Seiosuly though , you don't believe in creating birds from clay or speaking in cradle ?

We are told to question everything. That way we know the truth gained is a truth to hold on to.

This sounds as if you do not fully understand the meaning of this miracle, because you have never been told there was a definitive reason for it. The biblical miracles by some of the prophets and Jesus always had a message to convey. Miracles were a special gift from God, they were not given on a whim but only to convey something of importance. They had to in some way benefit mankind.

Gabriel .. Announcing the birth of Jesus.. Thus.~

Luke 1:26-38


The Birth of Jesus Foretold


26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”


29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”


34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”


35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”


38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Mary's cousin Elizabeth was the mother of John the Baptist, in case you didn't know. It is known that John the Baptist knew and foretold of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah. He knew this because he was blessed with this knowledge from God whilst still in the womb..

Luke 1:39-44
Mary Visits Elizabeth


39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

This for me at least is a far more satisfying account of the importance of Jesus. The Angel Gabriel announcing the birth negates the necessity for Jesus as a baby talking from his cradle. This I believe is the same Angel that brought revelation to Prophet Mohammed. You may wonder why Gabriel told a different story... Seeing as the same account or very similar was already in circulation. I know it make me wonder.


Lol... :)

Well.. For sure this has been discussed before. I never got answers to my questions.. I took that to mean no one had the answers. This may not matter to you, because you have already decided that the Bible has to be corrupted and it's message changed, to be otherwise lends difficulties to the Quran. However.. These allegations are levelled at my Holy Book, the Bible which I hold in the highest esteem as Gods inspired scripture. As I am led to believe that none can change Gods word, then I don't feel it unreasonable to ask for evidence of this crime.. Because be in no doubt crime it is... The most heinous of crimes imaginable because it is against God Himself. If a person is accused of a crime in a court of law evidence is submitted before a considered judgement and sentence is decided. Why should I settle for less.. When Gods very message is at stake and being brought into question. You are the ones making the claims of corruption then you should provide the evidence. If you have none.. Then the claims you make are baseless.


are you saying the Sunnah is also of divine origin?


do you know why Moses staff was turned into a snake? God sent the plagues on Egypt.. For a reason. What reason does the Quran give for the plagues on Egypt please? What reason do you see for miracles like splitting the moon and a crying log? I can see the food multiplication has good cause and is of benefit.. I do not see reason behind the moon and the log.

I don't think I can comment on this.

not suspicious.. But I guess I'm judging by the criteria we are given in the Bible for miracles and applying it to the Quran. Which is wrong of me. Maybe you do not need miracles to be nothing more than be proof of prophethood.

And who gave you the idea that the miracles of prophets according to Islam had no reason or message ? The first and most important is that they prove the prophecy of prophets . And no , they are not to be compared to tricks or sorcery as they are clear and impossible for humans to do at all or at the time at least . That's why the wizards of Pharoh admitted that what they saw was no sorcery because they knew what it was . Miracles also remind people that Allah is all powerful all knowing . And if people accept the prophet for seeing these miracles , doesn't that benefit mankind ? And no offense but , what is benefitting mankind that Christ walked on water according to Chrisianity ? You see what I mean ?

And to me , the noble Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him - which are also revelations from Allah - are enough . Also , just because we don't know the reason for him talking in cradle aside from the innocence of lady Mary doesn't mean there isn't . Not to mention that we shouldn't be ashamed if it was the only reason . People could have denied that he's her child or that he was born of no father or anything else . Jews knew about teh coming of Christ and it's recorded in theri books - Islam says so too - and yet they denied that it was him and accused him of things and they're still waiting for the "real Christ" which is in Islam the false Christ (Dajjal) . That's what the ones of falseehood always do . Also , talking as an infant is a miracle in itself and that is quiet enough .

There's a misconception here . In Islam , what doesn't change is the knowledge of Allah about all there is to be and what there wasn't to be . All of what's happening until the day of judgement is written in the preserved tablet (Allaoh Al-Mahfouz) . But when it comes to messages before Islam , they were to their people and time and not the whole humanity . Thus , Allah entrusted them to their people and they are the ones who did the crime and altered what has been revealed to them and hid things . A crime which they will be judged for . But when it comes to the noble Quran , Allah promised to preserve it himself - through means he knows best of - and that is why it can never be altered . That's our belief . So the people of the book didn't alter the words of Allah in the meaning that they defied destiny and such , it is all known to Allah .



You also don't believe in the staff becoming a snake ? Anyway , as said before , the main reasons for a miracle is proving the prophecy of a messnger or a prophet - there's a difference - , leaving no room for objection , reminding people that Allah is all powerful all knowing , and other things . So it shouldn't really directly benefit people financially or so .


I see .

Fair enough .

Fair enough . Still though , as said , in Islam , it doesn't have to directly benefit people financially or so .

And you're supposing that splitting the moon doesn't show that Allah is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him ?

Why should we believe by default that your book is holy ? Why should anyone believe that the other's book is holy ? That's where discussions are held . But not now . It's unrelated .

There seems to be a gap between your understanding and Pandora's . I just explained here :

Everything you asked about is answered in this last quote .

I do . I was asking .

Financially , materially , you know the roll .

What's the difference between that and prophets having miracles to show who they are ?

That's what we believe in Islam as well . Except the part of Christ peace upon him being one with Allah of course . Hardships , tough times , we are taught to always have faith and be pateint trying to be even the slightest like the prophets who endured countless sorts of harm .

Good , and it's the same with prophets . Anyone can say he's a prophet but only through evidence can that be proved . There were also false prophets during the first years of the Islamic nation who were expoesed for different reasons .

Again , we all have our beliefs .

Ironically missing the point in honesty . Now let's put this Smith guy - who I don't know at all - aside and focus on the issue . First , it's not how I see things . This is an Islamic belief and a matter of faith . I did say that I won't go into the matter of corruption because I'm no expert . And I repeat again , when we believe that Islam is true through signs and evidence , we believe whatever it says as it cannot be wrong . Some might misunderstand and those of falsehood will surely make slanders , but that's what faith means . It's not a matter of blind belief . And please don't dive into stuff like "You can't prove your faith" because you'd be the same as what you describe of pot and kettle . Faith isn't wrong in itself . Blind faith is .

And how come you don't accept this when Islam says it ?

Financially , materially , bodily , you know what I mean .

I am supposing nothing. There is no evidence that this happened. It would be written and documented in independent sources and known world wide like the flood of Noah recorded in all cultures. The splitting of the moon would've cause tidal flooding all around the world, and billions of people groups, tongues, nations, and languages would have seen the moon spilt and documented it. If some remote people saw it happen, I would take it to have been an illusion. Besides, faith doesn't require one to see God's power, and when God does something supernatural or a miracle, it is for a good reason and not just to show off His power. We know by faith God has power, and those who don't have faith even if they see God's miracles they will still not believe. So what is the point of splitting the moon, and what is it with the crescent moon over the Mosques? There seems to be moon based things going on in Islam that I don't understand.

Uhm, do you mean blind faith as in believing the moon was spilt without evidence?

Very well .

It tells us to believe in REAL prophets . That includes the ones Quran named and ones it didn't name . And for the record , prophet Muhammad peace upon him is the last of the prophets and messengers with the last message to mankind . Anyone who shows up after that claiming prophecy is a false one to us by default .

I didn't say it is .

We seem to differ a lot here . If th word "faith" means believe without evidence , I'll just use "belief" . We have different reasons to believe that Islam is true . And they're all logical . They don't have to be logical in the sense of "Scientifical and material" but logical to the mind . We see evidence in that the prophet peace upon him can't be a liar - his people always called him the honest and truthful - , we see evidence in that he invites to a true religion exalting the creator from any form of negative charecteristics allegated to him by other ones . We see evidence in the numeral miracles on multiple scales in Quran and Sunnah . But most importantly , we see proof in how it speaks to the pure nature of the heart .

Pandora , you can't possibly mean what you said about logic and faith being different because logic can change and faith is unshakeable . If so , we might someday see this equations of Atheism true (0+0=1) and tha's complete absurdity ! There are things called self evident truths "Badeehyyat" which can never be changed . Scientific and physical laws and theories aren't ones of them and maybe that's what you meant . On the other hand , if faith is unshakable and we should take that as proof , everyone can claim he's on the right path even those who worship cows . And no , it's not unshable . Otherwise , no one of any religion would leave it for another which clearly isn't the case .

I see .

To clear things , I seem to have been unclear . In Arabic , the word "Maal" means whatever a person owns . I thought it can be translated to "financially" . Thus , if the word means "Cash" , I went in the wrong direction .

I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .

First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :

https://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm

And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :

Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s_the_Moon.jpg

Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :

So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .


Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .

And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :

And :

And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :

The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?

Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .

So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .

Does it give you a criteria by which to judge the true from the false?

Ok then.. No problemo.

with all due respect, majority opinion is not a measure of logic. Scientific and numerical miracles are found in all areas of life, and certainly in relation to mathematical sequences they can be found in all books within word patterns. They are not miraculous in themselves. Otherwise if we were to find the same numerical sequences in say.. The works of Shakespeare then are we to take it his works are if divine origin? Don't think so. I do so agree with your last comment.. How it speaks to the pure nature of the heart.. That can be used as a measure of divinity. I get exactly that from the Bible and Christianity.

maybe I did not explain well.. I meant by relying on logical proofs that conform to our understanding of science, logic etc. in current time. Then if and when someone in the future comes along and proves that wrong then your basis for belief could crumble. If you have pure faith, that God is all powerful nothing can assail that because you cannot prove it by means of human understanding. For the simple reason God will always be beyond our understanding except for that which God chooses to reveal to us. It's for God to determine who is on the right path.. We can claim what we like the ultimate knowledge is Gods and Gods alone. For me this moment in time God has chosen for me Christianity and given me my faith in Jesus as my redeemer the the guidance of the Spirit. For you you have been sent on a different path... That we choose to question and explore that "path" on our journey is good for then we can be sure we have not been... As the saying goes.... Slipped a custard. ;)



I see .



Fair enough.. I just hope you got my point that such things are of no importance to God, what we do with them if we have them may be... But the possession of them ..not at all.

[/QUOTE]I take it back , there's a huge gap between you and Pandora . I'm talking with two individuals on completely different levels ! And even though you contradict yourself and book with your continuous baseless attacks on Islam , you just keep doing it . Not to mention that you have this annoying habit of spamming slanders one after another which are completely unrelated to the subject . So I'm not wrong when I say you'r clearly insecure .

First of all pal , a miracle doesn't have to be explained with science . And to clear things up , you need to know that "Science" isn't "Knowledge" , it's a mere fragment of it . Science deals only on the material level . So when you want me to explain the existence of angels materially , you're asking for something absurd . Secondly , the miracle of the moon splitting was mainly for the pagans at Makkah who asked for a miracle . Some believed and the stubborn didn't . So it wouldn't be surprising if other people didn't see it . Still , they DID see it . No , I won't show you the crack on the moon by NASA as it's debatable but actual cultures recording the incident . This is in India :

[IMG]https://www.iosworld.org/interview_cheramul.htm[/url]

And there's a mention about manscriptues of Madrid , I lost the page really , but this is the quote :



Wanna see the Persian manuscriot ? Here :

[url]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg/300px-Mohammed_Splits_the_Moon.jpg[/IMG]

Oh . and a Muslim asked a library of the Indian manuscript and got this message in return :



So when you ask "Why didn't floods happen" and all , you're contradicting the meaning of a miracle ! And don't get me started because based on this flawed thinking I can say the same about any miracle in the Bible .


Thirdly , trying to force your slander further by saying "God doesn't do things to show off" is a cheap attempt and it can be used the same way with any mentioned miracle in any religion .

And if you keep the STUPID widely spread farce of "Muslims worship the moon" , you're gonna get it . It's enough that Quran says :



And :



And there are numerous signs in Quran about subjecting the sun and moon . AND :



The crecent was the adopted by the Ottomans - ever saw the flag of Turkey ? -and it doesn't hold any religious meaning in Islam . I can take any crescent on a mosque and step on it - Not literally of course , that's vandelizing - so can you do the same with a cross ?



Or like that Jesus walked on water without evidence ? Don't say the Bible because I can claim it's corrupted just to fend you off although I have other reasons to believe it is .

So are you going to discuss like a normal person would or do you just want to embarass yourself more ? I don't have an issue , but if you want it , I can drop the fancy treatment and treat you the same way you treat others .