إعـــــــلان

**pandora** · 10-06-2014, 13:14

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة شمائل مشاهدة المشاركة

Judge Christianity by Christians?

in all seriousness I do not believe you just said this! Should I then judge Islam by muslims? If that is the case just based on some of the behaviours of some muslims on this forum alone Islam would be found wanting.

Jesus did not bring a religion.. Jesus brought a way to salvation and a means to make oneself right before God. It is man who has labeled the followers of Jesus's teachings as Christians and it is society that has termed it as a religion. Jesus IS the only church a Christian needs.

A ~

Delayed deployment is not a hoax, is a system of law and forum

B ~

That's how it was with me as well at first with few posts . That's the rule .

A. ~ if you say so, however it does appear that Muslim members enjoy certain privileges in regards to posting on the forum than non muslims. Editing their own posts for one. I thought it was just a rule for me.. But as I see Burninglight also has the same issues it seems a system that is not quite as fair as it should be. It does seem strange to not allow direct posting.... Seeing as moderators have the right to edit or remove posts anyway.

B. ~ this is not the case.. I have been on this forum almost as long as yourself and have more posts than you.. So obviously the "rule" is not as you believe it to be.

The forum having rules is not an issue.. Every forum needs rules and guidelines for members to ensure smooth running and fairness for all. I am certainly not complaining or disagreeing with the need for rules.. Just if the rules discriminate against some members on the basis of their religious beliefs then.. It's not fair. Is this a representation of how muslims are supposed to deal with non muslims in everyday situations? A bit like the Dhimni status of old? :)

Peace to you.

**نصير الدين** · 10-06-2014, 13:44

I know more about Islam than most Muslims.

Seeing that you lack most minimum knowledge a Muslim should know , and the fact that every single arrogant person among Christians says this same line the same way , I'll take this as a joke .

Regarding delayed posting, you said it was that way with you the first few posts, but I have done quite a bit more than a few posts. Is that called Muslim fairness?

If I recall correctly , I had to write 100 posts to be able to write directly . And you're now at 99 . And this isn't something to complain so much about . You get your posts shown .

You are saying I am deluded, because you are convinced you have the truth, but I am equally convinced that Jesus is the truth; He is the only truth. He said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me.

Indeed , each of us believes in something based on what he sees as evidence . And because two religions can't both be right , one must be wrong . And that's why debates are held among people of knowledge whom I am not of .

You don't believe what Jesus said that is recorded in the Bible. You use the ridiculous excuse that the Bible is corrupted not seeming to realize or not wanting to that the Scripture that came before are from the God you claim as your God. God preserves all His words and messages. Only Muslims are not willing to believe it. Even Allah said his word is unalterable. The Bible says God word is established forever in heaven so anything that contradicts what came before should be held suspect, but Muslims put the cart before the horse; we don't do that, and you say we Christians are deluded. If the message from the Scripture that came before is corrupted than so is the Quran for saying God word is unalterable. Make up you mind. Is man's power to corrupt greater than god's power to preserve His word. Do you even know who is God's Word?

Have not I told you before that you have serious misconceptions about Islam ? Or can't you read properly ? The people of the book were entrusted to preceive their books and they failed the test . So when you try to make it look like we're saying Allah couldn't preceive his books you're on a completely different page .

5:44Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

It's not that Allah couldn't preceive his words . It's that the people of the book failed the test and corrupted their own books .

It is the god of Islam that calls himself the best of deceiver in the Arabic, but the English translation dishonestly translates him as best of planners. The fact is Allah does and did best what the unbelievers were doing according to the Quran. What were they doing? They were lying, cheating, scheming, plotting and deceiving; well Allah does those things best if you can understand context.

If you can't read Arabic then you have no idea what you're talking about . This is the sign in its original language :

وَإِذْ يَمْكُرُ بِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيُثْبِتُوكَ أَوْ يَقْتُلُوكَ أَوْ يُخْرِجُوكَ ۚ وَيَمْكُرُونَ وَيَمْكُرُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ

And this is it in a translation :

8:30 And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.

The word in question is "Makr"="مكر" . Your ignorance of Arabic - and listening to slanders you are fed with - makes you think that the word means "Deceiver" . While the best translation for the meaning is indeed "Planner" . Planning of people can be for good or bad purposes , but the planning of Allah is always for the good . An example is how you plan to corrupt the picture of Islam with lies like 9/11 - a huge farce indeed ! - still , Allah is better at planning and your schemes turned against you as more people are embracing Islam . That's what it means , not the false ideas you take for granted without even bothering to ask if true or not .

And don't start talking about charecteristics of God and his prophet . Because I swear there is nothing you falsely allegate to Islam that doesn't exist times worse in your Bible . That's something unrelated to the current topic but apparently it's in your DNA to spam slanders after slanders to flood the page as if THAT is a conversation . Our current topic is that you made the joke of "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" which is clearly , a joke . So are you convinced now or do you want to embarrass yourself more ?

**pandora** · 10-06-2014, 14:24

If I recall correctly , I had to write 100 posts to be able to write directly . And you're now at 99 . And this isn't something to complain so much about . You get your posts shown .

hmm... I may just ask at this point as I have 399 posts on this forum.. How does that work? Maybe the moderator/admin just forgot to extend the same privilege to me..

**نصير الدين** · 10-06-2014, 14:58

As for the delayed posts , I seem to have got it wrong . And frankly , I don't remember what's the rule exactly . I'll leave the explanation to the sister .

**pandora** · 10-06-2014, 15:14

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

As for the delayed posts , I seem to have got it wrong . And frankly , I don't remember what's the rule exactly . I'll leave the explanation to the sister .

Well.. We all make mistakes at times don't worry about it.

May I ask is this in response to my last post about this matter, which has not been posted yet? If posts have to go through some translation process or something that's fine and good. If Muslim members see posts before they reach open forum again that's fine and good.. It would be a courtesy to explain that procedure to others who see themselves at a disadvantage because of it. It avoids misunderstandings.

**Burninglight** · 10-06-2014, 17:55

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Seeing that you lack most minimum knowledge a Muslim should know , and the fact that every single arrogant person among Christians says this same line the same way , I'll take this as a joke .

I am not laughing.

[QUOTE=نصير الدين;597154]

If I recall correctly , I had to write 100 posts to be able to write directly . And you're now at 99 . And this isn't something to complain so much about . You get your posts shown. If that is the case, my apologies for not understanding forum policy, and members should be told the policy and not be kept in the dark, IMO.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Indeed , each of us believes in something based on what he sees as evidence . And because two religions can't both be right , one must be wrong . And that's why debates are held among people of knowledge whom I am not of ..

Then let me speak with someone with knowledge, LOL.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Have not I told you before that you have serious misconceptions about Islam ? Or can't you read properly ? The people of the book were entrusted to preceive their books and they failed the test . So when you try to make it look like we're saying Allah couldn't preceive his books you're on a completely different page ..

Maybe so, but not as bad as your misconceptions are about Christians and Christianity.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

It's not that Allah couldn't preceive his words . It's that the people of the book failed the test and corrupted their own books ..

I said nothing of this sought. I said if Allah couldn't or wouldn't preserve the Scripture that came before, why would he do it with the Scripture that came after? Is man's power to corrupt God's message greater than God's power to preserve it? If Allah's word is unalterable as stated in Islam, how is it possible someone could alter his true word that came before the Quran? We know that Jesus is His Word.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

If you can't read Arabic then you have no idea what you're talking about . This is the sign in its original language :
And this is it in a translation :

The word in question is "Makr"="مكر" . Your ignorance of Arabic - and listening to slanders you are fed with - makes you think that the word means "Deceiver" . While the best translation for the meaning is indeed "Planner" . Planning of people can be for good or bad purposes , but the planning of Allah is always for the good . An example is how you plan to corrupt the picture of Islam with lies like 9/11 - a huge farce indeed ! - still , Allah is better at planning and your schemes turned against you as more people are embracing Islam . That's what it means , not the false ideas you take for granted without even bothering to ask if true or not ..

Yes, I am ignorant of Arabic, but I can make inferences; besides, the verse you quoted is not the one I am referring to from the Quran. It is the verse were the unbelievers were scheming, plotting, and planning which implies they are using deception; then it states but Allah is the best of what they were doing which was deceiving. How is it you are not able to make this simple connection? Besides, why would Abu Bakr say: I wouldn't trust the "Makr" of Allah if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" if it is a good thing as you say?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And don't start talking about charecteristics of God and his prophet . Because I swear there is nothing you falsely allegate to Islam that doesn't exist times worse in your Bible . That's something unrelated to the current topic but apparently it's in your DNA to spam slanders after slanders to flood the page as if THAT is a conversation . Our current topic is that you made the joke of "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" which is clearly , a joke . So are you convinced now or do you want to embarrass yourself more ?

I didn't say Islam today doesn't say the Bible is corrupted; I said Muhammad never criticized the text; he criticized people and the same with his god. Only modern day Muslim have the audacity to say the Scripture that came before is corrupted, and what I said is not spamming slander after slander as you are attempting to do to Christians on the forum. We speak the truth who is Jesus Christ. When Jesus and his disciples spoke truth, they too were accused of blasphemy and slanderous things. I don't see why it should be any different for Christians today.

Peace
BTW, I am over 100 posts and still I cannot post directly.

**نصير الدين** · 11-06-2014, 10:38

If that is the case, my apologies for not understanding forum policy, and members should be told the policy and not be kept in the dark, IMO.

Fair enough .

Then let me speak with someone with knowledge, LOL.

Go ahead . It's not a shame to admit one isn't knowledgable . True shame is in acting like you're one while you're far from it .

Maybe so, but not as bad as your misconceptions are about Christians and Christianity.

And do you see me telling you "Christianity doesn't mean Christ died for your sins" ?! Do you see now why it's frustrating .

I said nothing of this sought. I said if Allah couldn't or wouldn't preserve the Scripture that came before, why would he do it with the Scripture that came after?

For the gazillion time , because Allah said he will . But since you don't know the slightest about Quran , here :

15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

Is man's power to corrupt God's message greater than God's power to preserve it?

Now that's a sneaky way to say it which isn't the single bit close to the teachings of Islam . If you say things this way , you should also say "Is man's power to do evil deeds greater than God's power to stop it ?" . Allah tested the people of the book and they failed . That doesn't mean in any way that Allah - exalted he is - couldn't preserve his books .

If Allah's word is unalterable as stated in Islam, how is it possible someone could alter his true word that came before the Quran?

Another sneaky way to say it . Do you have an idea what the preserved tablet is ? All the events of the universe are written in it and nothing changes of them . That includes the knowledge of Allah that the Jews and Christians will corrput their books .

Yes, I am ignorant of Arabic, but I can make inferences; besides, the verse you quoted is not the one I am referring to from the Quran. It is the verse were the unbelievers were scheming, plotting, and planning which implies they are using deception; then it states but Allah is the best of what they were doing which was deceiving. How is it you are not able to make this simple connection?

Which is why I keep saying you lack most basic knowledge of what you hate so much . These are all the signs about planning :

27:50 And they planned a plan, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not.
3:54 And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.
7:99 Then did they feel secure from the plan of Allah ? But no one feels secure from the plan of Allah except the losing people.
8:30 And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.
13:42 And those before them had plotted, but to Allah belongs the plan entirely. He knows what every soul earns, and the disbelievers will know for whom is the final home.
14:46 And they had planned their plan, but with Allah is [recorded] their plan, even if their plan had been [sufficient] to do away with the mountains.

And your objection is ? You did say you don't understand a thing in Arabic so simply put , shut up . I'm telling something as simple as 1,2,3 ! Planning can be for good or bad when it comes to people . But Allah only plans for the good . On the other hand - and I just googled the numbers - what you falsely allegate to Islam exists times more in your Bible !

Ezk14:9 If the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, Yahweh, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand on him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2Thes2:11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;

And other ones !

Besides, why would Abu Bakr say: I wouldn't trust the "Makr" of Allah if I had one foot in paradise and one on earth" if it is a good thing as you say?

You seriously don't know the difference between your elbow and metatarsus ! This narration doesn't exist . And I just found this out with a quick Google search ! You on the other hand take slanders and lies and absorb them like a sponge !

https://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/inde...waId&Id=205093

Still , if true , the meaning is to not be so sure about your belief and act like "I will never go astray" . That's arrogance . One should always ask Allah to keep him on the true path .

I didn't say Islam today doesn't say the Bible is corrupted; I said Muhammad never criticized the text; he criticized people and the same with his god. Only modern day Muslim have the audacity to say the Scripture that came before is corrupted,

I honestly did what I'm obliged to do and answered your allegations , so I won't keep going with this madness !

Here's an advice : Drop this massive arrogance of yours and learn about Islam from its scholars and not your church or whatever the source of your ridiculous misconceptions is ! You don't have the slightest idea about the doctrine of Muslims in probably anything ! Everytime you write something , you show serious ignorance !

and what I said is not spamming slander after slander as you are attempting to do to Christians on the forum.

Yes it is ! The subject was "Does Islam say the Bible is corrupted ?" and you spammed slanders about "How was it corrupted ?" , about Allah , about Quran , and so on ! What does all that have with the current discussion ?!

Well honestly , that's it . I won't waste hours trying to prove to someone that blue is blue and red is red !

**Burninglight** · 12-06-2014, 16:05

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Go ahead . It's not a shame to admit one isn't knowledgable . True shame is in acting like you're one while you're far from it .

Go ahead? go ahead and what? I never said its a shame to be ignorant. Ignorance has a cure, but willful ignorance is another matter.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And do you see me telling you "Christianity doesn't mean Christ died for your sins" ?! Do you see now why it's frustrating .

No, but I see you not showing respect for the most important part of our faith and yet you expect us to show respect for yours. I don't understand what you mean by frustrating regarding the death of Christ and my believing it. I know Muslims believe Muhammad is a slave messenger of Allah and a prophet of Islam, and I respect that they believe that. I don't see, however, how he is a messenger when he didn't hear directly from God once, but that is another issue, but I respect you believe it, and I don't take or try to take it from you.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

For the gazillion time , because Allah said he will . But since you don't know the slightest about Quran , here :

?Because we will be its guardians?" This, I can't tell you how contrived that sounds. Where is the spiritual sense to this or the prove for it? Uthman burning the original Qurans and using the help of text from Hafsah's copy and then destroying her copy fails to show me guardianship. Sorry, I fail to see it, and I call it the way I do see it, especially when the message he guards is against God's previous message or Scripture.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Now that's a sneaky way to say it which isn't the single bit close to the teachings of Islam . If you say things this way , you should also say "Is man's power to do evil deeds greater than God's power to stop it ?" . Allah tested the people of the book and they failed . That doesn't mean in any way that Allah - exalted he is - couldn't preserve his books .

You are being sneaky. I never said it is the teaching of Islam. I am asking a question is all. God said before Muhammad was born that His word is established forever and you expect me to believe that only part of his guarded word is in the Quran. You have to be joking right? Your analogy fails. God allows us free will in His sovereignty,and yes, He can and will put an end to the evil deeds of men in His time. What man does and what God does are as high as the heavens are from the earth and His thoughts from our thoughts. Your example fails miserably here.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Another sneaky way to say it . Do you have an idea what the preserved tablet is ? All the events of the universe are written in it and nothing changes of them . That includes the knowledge of Allah that the Jews and Christians will corrput their books .

Where is the prove they will corrupt their books? This is a sneaky and misleading thing to say and sounds contrived to support the Quran. When you have to cut down that God's previous Scriptures were corrupted by man to support Islam or the Quran red flags go up all over a true Christians mind and heart. Apparently, we guard our hearts, better that the god of Islam guards his word in the torah and gospel. But my Creator guards the central gospel message that Allah's "Planning" brought about. For instance, Allah's making something to appear to be true that wasn't caused this chasm between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and you prefer to call that Allah's planning; okay, call it planning instead of deception. I am fine with it.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Which is why I keep saying you lack most basic knowledge of what you hate so much . These are all the signs about planning :

Planning can be evil too. That makes planning deception friend. Yes, God sends a strong delusion to those who refuse the knowledge of truth, but he doesn't lead people who want the truth to believe Jesus died and put someone else on the cross to save Him. Imagine that, instead of Jesus dying for our sin to save us like the Scriptures say someone dies to save Jesus. That is a joke that you are willing to believe but not me.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And your objection is ? You did say you don't understand a thing in Arabic so simply put , shut up . I'm telling something as simple as 1,2,3 ! Planning can be for good or bad when it comes to people . But Allah only plans for the good . On the other hand - and I just googled the numbers - what you falsely allegate to Islam exists times more in your Bible !

Shut up? That's rude to say. One of your greatest apologist Deedat didn't know Arabic and someone cut him down for it, but Deedat shut him up good. A Muslim posted that video on this forum. You don't have to know a language to know what is true. Since when do I have to know how to read or write Arabic to understand Islam; not even your prophet could do it and you tell me to shut up??? pfft.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

You seriously don't know the difference between your elbow and metatarsus ! This narration doesn't exist . And I just found this out with a quick Google search ! You on the other hand take slanders and lies and absorb them like a sponge !

This is another necessary rude comment. If Abu Bakr didn't say he didn't trust the Makr of Allah as you say, I will check my sources. I am not interested in knowing what is not true about Islam. I have better things to do with my time.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Still , if true , the meaning is to not be so sure about your belief and act like "I will never go astray" . That's arrogance . One should always ask Allah to keep him on the true path .

There is no arrogance in faith. It is written, the just shall live by faith. My boast in being sure is not ignorance, because it is not boasting in me; it is me boasting in Christ!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

I honestly did what I'm obliged to do and answered your allegations , so I won't keep going with this madness !

Yes, you did answer with madness, and please feel free not to continue the madness as you suit yourself.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Here's an advice : Drop this massive arrogance of yours and learn about Islam from its scholars and not your church or whatever the source of your ridiculous misconceptions is ! You don't have the slightest idea about the doctrine of Muslims in probably anything ! Everytime you write something , you show serious ignorance !

I am learning about Islam from Muslims. Your post here comes across as rude and condescending. You can tell more about a person from what he says about others than what others say about him. I recommend you take a social skills course. My spiritual advice to you is get wisdom and knowledge that comes from God ask Him for it, but call out to the God of Abraham to reveal himself to you. I don't believe you are praying to your Creator as you are dong now.

Peace be unto you

[QUOTE=نصير الدين;597236]
Yes it is ! The subject was "Does Islam say the Bible is corrupted ?" and you spammed slanders about "How was it corrupted ?" , about Allah , about Quran , and so on ! What does all that have with the current discussion ?!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Well honestly , that's it . I won't waste hours trying to prove to someone that blue is blue and red is red !

**نصير الدين** · 13-06-2014, 00:22

No, but I see you not showing respect for the most important part of our faith and yet you expect us to show respect for yours. I don't understand what you mean by frustrating regarding the death of Christ and my believing it. I know Muslims believe Muhammad is a slave messenger of Allah and a prophet of Islam, and I respect that they believe that. I don't see, however, how he is a messenger when he didn't hear directly from God once, but that is another issue, but I respect you believe it, and I don't take or try to take it from you.

No you don't respect it ! You've been saying all the time "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" ! And when I said frustrating , I meant what you want to force on OUR belief .

?Because we will be its guardians?" This, I can't tell you how contrived that sounds. Where is the spiritual sense to this or the prove for it? Uthman burning the original Qurans and using the help of text from Hafsah's copy and then destroying her copy fails to show me guardianship. Sorry, I fail to see it, and I call it the way I do see it, especially when the message he guards is against God's previous message or Scripture.

"Facepalm"

Seriously , how am I going to pass itthrough to your head ? You have NO idea about the incident ! You add things , alter things , and innovate things about it while the truth is that nothing happened that means the Quran isn't preserved . And ONCE AGAIN , you make slanders that don't have a thing with the current situation . Islam saying the Bible is corrupted differs from proving that . Islam saying Quran is preserved differs from proving - actually , DISPROVING - that . I stated our belief in Islam and THAT was your question .

Now , I'll give you some basic knowledge of Islam that you lack . Quran isn't necessarily preserved through text alone . Muslims could memorize it for every single alphabet . And they were not few either . That's something Arabians were infamous of as they could report a whole poem they only heard once without altering a letter (Not ALL of them of course but you know what I mean) . So it really makes me facepalm a lot when I see Christians saying "There's a narration about a goat eating a paper with Quran on it ! There ! Quran is corrupted !" . And that doesn't differ from saying that melons are tornadoes hitting the tropical areas ! IF the narration is true - and it's not - then what does that have to do with people memorizing every single alphabet of it ? And by the way , you probably don't know a thing about this - no surprise really ! - but Quran was gathered in one script with all the "Hafaza=Memorizers" agreeing that there is not even a single letter changed or anything of the sort . And keep in mind that the prophet peace upon him had writers write down the revelation once it is revealed . It's just that it was gathered after he passed away . So believe me , you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about . You don't know any of the people you're mentioning . You just took an allegation and decided to use it without asking if true or not . And each time you talk , you prvoe it !

You are being sneaky. I never said it is the teaching of Islam. I am asking a question is all. God said before Muhammad was born that His word is established forever and you expect me to believe that only part of his guarded word is in the Quran.

About the underlined . That's YOUR belief ! And you want to force it on OUR belief here ! We believe that all the revelations except Quran were for certain people and certain times . Only the last message is meant for the worlds and all times . Discussing if that's true or not is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC !

You have to be joking right? Your analogy fails. God allows us free will in His sovereignty,and yes, He can and will put an end to the evil deeds of men in His time. What man does and what God does are as high as the heavens are from the earth and His thoughts from our thoughts. Your example fails miserably here.

You're trying to make it sound as if THAT'S my belief . Who fails miserably now ?

Where is the prove they will corrupt their books?

"Facepalm"

For the Zexillion time , that's OUR belief . Discussing if it's true or not is another subject . How many flipping times do I have to repeat so that you understand ?!

When you have to cut down that God's previous Scriptures were corrupted by man to support Islam or the Quran red flags go up all over a true Christians mind and heart. Apparently, we guard our hearts, better that the god of Islam guards his word in the torah and gospel. But my Creator guards the central gospel message that Allah's "Planning" brought about. For instance, Allah's making something to appear to be true that wasn't caused this chasm between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and you prefer to call that Allah's planning; okay, call it planning instead of deception. I am fine with it.

It's funny how you miserably dodged addressing your OWN Bible which says that God decieves people . And even though I explained it to you TWICE . It can't get through your skull . And even though I explained to you that the people of the book were entrusted to preserve their books - which were for their time and place ONLY - and they failed the test , you just keep repeating because my words go through an ear and leave out of the other . Indeed , chosen ignorance has no cure .

Planning can be evil too. That makes planning deception friend.

That's a ridiculously stupid thing to say . Aside from the fact that you didn't address your Bible saying God does decieve . How do you function ?! OK , let's use your line of logic and see how we'll reach absurd conclusions . Since planning can be evil , an engineer planning how to build something is decieving and evil !

Yes, God sends a strong delusion to those who refuse the knowledge of truth, but he doesn't lead people who want the truth to believe Jesus died and put someone else on the cross to save Him. Imagine that, instead of Jesus dying for our sin to save us like the Scriptures say someone dies to save Jesus. That is a joke that you are willing to believe but not me.

Now watch that filthy mouth of yours . Insulting me or a member here is somethign . But Islam is the red line . So either you learn to talk properly or just end up like the rest who couldn't clean their tongues . As for this additional slander - and I did say you're only capable of flooding pages with one after another - I won't address it as it's not related .

Shut up? That's rude to say.

When I tell someone who doesn't know what he's talking about to not talk about it , I'm not being rude .

One of your greatest apologist Deedat didn't know Arabic and someone cut him down for it, but Deedat shut him up good.

We DON'T have something called "Apologist" . That's something only you have . We don't need to "Apologize" about something in Islam as there is NOTHING to apologize about . Rather , we dash truth upon falsehood and prove YOU to be wrong . And while Ahmad Deedat - May Allah place mercy on him - didn't know Arabic that well , he knew what he was talking about unlike you .

Since when do I have to know how to read or write Arabic to understand Islam; not even your prophet could do it and you tell me to shut up??? pfft.

You seriously need therapy for saying this . The prophet peace upon him didn't know Arabic ?! He didn't know how to read or write , but he KNEW the language ! You on the other hand probably don't know the alphabets . And while that's not a reason in itself for me to tell you to shut up , you trying to argue about something you don't know the slightest about is what makes me say it !

I am not interested in knowing what is not true about Islam. I have better things to do with my time.

Yeah right , and that's why everything you think you know about Islam is 100% untrue .

There is no arrogance in faith. It is written, the just shall live by faith. My boast in being sure is not ignorance, because it is not boasting in me; it is me boasting in Christ!

As expected , you don't get it . One must ALWAYS ask Allah to help him strengthen his belief . People are completely powerless without Allah . And doubts and such attack the heart of someone with a weak belief , he'll relapse . For this , we always ask Allah to preserve our belief . Now that's OUR belief . What's with you always trying to force YOUR belief on ours ?!

I recommend you take a social skills course.

I always treat people with respect when they act in kind . But when someone shows up and goes "Your belief isn't X but rather Y and you're this and that if you don't thin so !" I am definitely to not act as I usually do . You should direct that advice to yourself .

Now hold on , why am I wasting time over this ? You made a ridiculous claim of "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" and I showed you signs and narrations proving it with no doubt . So either you admit you were wrong or just shut it and spare us the headache .

**Burninglight** · 13-06-2014, 02:58

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

No you don't respect it ! You've been saying all the time "Islam doesn't say the people of the book corrupted their books" ! And when I said frustrating , I meant what you want to force on OUR belief ..

Even Muslims interpret the Quran differently than you and each other; does that mean they are forcing their belief on you? No, of course not. I do respect you as a person and the right you have to believe the way you do. My saying that I don't believe the Quran is talking about the Bible doesn't mean I don't respect your right to believe what you want. I said, you believe the Quran speaks of the Bible being corrupted, but you are inferring that information, because it is not explicitly stated. You seem so offended. I am not offended. In fact, there is a verse in the Bible that states "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." If I find myself getting offended, I will tell myself: "You need to love God's law more." And yes, I have gotten offended driving disrespectful kids in a school bus, but not on this forum.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

"Facepalm"
Seriously , how am I going to pass itthrough to your head ? You have NO idea about the incident ! You add things , alter things , and innovate things about it while the truth is that nothing happened that means the Quran isn't preserved . And ONCE AGAIN , you make slanders that don't have a thing with the current situation . Islam saying the Bible is corrupted differs from proving that . Islam saying Quran is preserved differs from proving - actually , DISPROVING - that . I stated our belief in Islam and THAT was your question . .

What is faceplam? Okay, okay you can say this all you want. Are you telling me that Uthman didn't burn the Qurans? Are you telling me that Hafsha's copy of the Quran wasn't destroyed after her death? If what I said here is true, why do you call it slander? We didn't have a Christian Uthman type of person who burned the hundreds and hundreds of copies of manuscripts we have; so, we know and can prove what was added or taken away. Muslims don't have that kind of resource, IMO.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Now , I'll give you some basic knowledge of Islam that you lack . Quran isn't necessarily preserved through text alone . Muslims could memorize it for every single alphabet . And they were not few either . That's something Arabians were infamous of as they could report a whole poem they only heard once without altering a letter (Not ALL of them of course but you know what I mean) . So it really makes me facepalm a lot when I see Christians saying "There's a narration about a goat eating a paper with Quran on it ! There ! Quran is corrupted !" . And that doesn't differ from saying that melons are tornadoes hitting the tropical areas ! IF the narration is true - and it's not - then what does that have to do with people memorizing every single alphabet of it ? And by the way , you probably don't know a thing about this - no surprise really ! - but Quran was gathered in one script with all the "Hafaza=Memorizers" agreeing that there is not even a single letter changed or anything of the sort . And keep in mind that the prophet peace upon him had writers write down the revelation once it is revealed . It's just that it was gathered after he passed away . So believe me , you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about . You don't know any of the people you're mentioning . You just took an allegation and decided to use it without asking if true or not . And each time you talk , you prvoe it !.

Can you show me your source for this information about the Quran was gathered in one script with all the "Hafaza=Memorizers" agreeing that there is not even a single letter changed or anything of the sort? If this is true, why did Uthman burn them? Some Muslims say to put it in the Qurush dialect. That means letters needed changed. Do you think I am just making this up or you seriously don't believe what I am saying here? I am not trying to be smart or wanting you to dig in your heels. I am sincerely asking???

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

About the underlined . That's YOUR belief ! And you want to force it on OUR belief here ! We believe that all the revelations except Quran were for certain people and certain times . Only the last message is meant for the worlds and all times . Discussing if that's true or not is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC ! .

Okay, I respect that you believe this, but I believe it is an Arabic religion only, because everything is in Arabic. Islam's prophet was an Arab; Muslims most visit an Arabic country; The Quran is in Arabic and so on. Even the Quran says we Christians must stand on what has been revealed to us for we can do no other. Do you know the Quranic verse I am referring to?
[QUOTE=نصير الدين;597460]

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

It's funny how you miserably dodged addressing your OWN Bible which says that God decieves people . And even though I explained it to you TWICE . It can't get through your skull . And even though I explained to you that the people of the book were entrusted to preserve their books - which were for their time and place ONLY - and they failed the test , you just keep repeating because my words go through an ear and leave out of the other . Indeed , chosen ignorance has no cure .

That's a ridiculously stupid thing to say . Aside from the fact that you didn't address your Bible saying God does decieve . How do you function ?! OK , let's use your line of logic and see how we'll reach absurd conclusions . Since planning can be evil , an engineer planning how to build something is decieving and evil !.

I did address and you quoted part of it. I said God sends a strong delusion to those who refuse the love of truth. A delusion is deception. But our God never made something appear to be true that wasn't leading to billions of billions of people into deception. That is how many died believing Jesus died and rose from the dead. Without Jesus' death and resurrection there would be no Christianity. This is what Allah meant by the best of planning? I am asking not telling you what to believe.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Now watch that filthy mouth of yours . Insulting me or a member here is somethign . But Islam is the red line . So either you learn to talk properly or just end up like the rest who couldn't clean their tongues . As for this additional slander - and I did say you're only capable of flooding pages with one after another - I won't address it as it's not related ..

What filth are you referring to? How have I insulted you? what slander? I have no idea what you're talking about sister.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

When I tell someone who doesn't know what he's talking about to not talk about it , I'm not being rude ..

there is nothing rude about telling someone not to talk about something they don't know, but it was rude the way you said it. I accept that you a blind to your faults.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

We DON'T have something called "Apologist" . That's something only you have . We don't need to "Apologize" about something in Islam as there is NOTHING to apologize about . Rather , we dash truth upon falsehood and prove YOU to be wrong . And while Ahmad Deedat - May Allah place mercy on him - didn't know Arabic that well , he knew what he was talking about unlike you ..

Deedat was an apologist. Apparently you don't know what that word means. It doesn't mean apologize: here is the definition: Apologist | Define Apologist at Dictionary.com

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Apologist

noun 1. a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc. 2. Ecclesiastical . a person skilled in apologetics

[QUOTE=نصير الدين;597460]
You seriously need therapy for saying this . The prophet peace upon him didn't know Arabic ?! He didn't know how to read or write , but he KNEW the language ! You on the other hand probably don't know the alphabets . And while that's not a reason in itself for me to tell you to shut up , you trying to argue about something you don't know the slightest about is what makes me say it !

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Yeah right , and that's why everything you think you know about Islam is 100% untrue .
As expected , you don't get it . One must ALWAYS ask Allah to help him strengthen his belief . People are completely powerless without Allah . And doubts and such attack the heart of someone with a weak belief , he'll relapse . For this , we always ask Allah to preserve our belief . Now that's OUR belief . What's with you always trying to force YOUR belief on ours ?!.

I believe I can do nothing without Christ.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

I always treat people with respect when they act in kind . But when someone shows up and goes "Your belief isn't X but rather Y and you're this and that if you don't thin so !" I am definitely to not act as I usually do . You should direct that advice to yourself ..

You could've fooled me.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Now hold on , why am I wasting time over this ? You made a ridiculous claim of "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" and I showed you signs and narrations proving it with no doubt . So either you admit you were wrong or just shut it and spare us the headache .

You didn't come close to proving this. Where did your prophet's Quran say the torah or gospel is corrupted?

May God guide you to the knowledge of truth
Peace be unto you.

**نصير الدين** · 13-06-2014, 15:08

Even Muslims interpret the Quran differently than you and each other; does that mean they are forcing their belief on you? No, of course not.

And your point is ? Each time you're faced with something you resort to unrelated topics at all ! There are signs which can be interpreted in multiple ways , true . However , there are others which can't have a different meaning . And Allah did mention how the ones with astray hearts leave the crystal clear and resort to the other for their evil purposes :

3:7 It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

I said, you believe the Quran speaks of the Bible being corrupted, but you are inferring that information, because it is not explicitly stated

The signs amd narrations are crystal clear . There is absolutely no room for anyone to claim they don't say the people of the book corrupted them . Any form of acrobatic explanations is refused on the spot .

Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

What is faceplam? Okay, okay you can say this all you want. Are you telling me that Uthman didn't burn the Qurans? Are you telling me that Hafsha's copy of the Quran wasn't destroyed after her death? If what I said here is true, why do you call it slander? We didn't have a Christian Uthman type of person who burned the hundreds and hundreds of copies of manuscripts we have; so, we know and can prove what was added or taken away. Muslims don't have that kind of resource, IMO.

What's mentioned without proof , is refused without proof . Luckily , I found a subject on the forum to give you some education about the incident :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t193322.html

As for the "We have the original scriptuers" which made me laugh , it's enough for you to know that you don't even have teh same version of the Bible around the world right now . I won't go any further .

Can you show me your source for this information about the Quran was gathered in one script with all the "Hafaza=Memorizers" agreeing that there is not even a single letter changed or anything of the sort? If this is true, why did Uthman burn them? Some Muslims say to put it in the Qurush dialect. That means letters needed changed. Do you think I am just making this up or you seriously don't believe what I am saying here? I am not trying to be smart or wanting you to dig in your heels. I am sincerely asking???

And YOU have source or evidence of what you claim ?! Read the topic I provided the link of .

Okay, I respect that you believe this, but I believe it is an Arabic religion only, because everything is in Arabic. Islam's prophet was an Arab; Muslims most visit an Arabic country; The Quran is in Arabic and so on. Even the Quran says we Christians must stand on what has been revealed to us for we can do no other. Do you know the Quranic verse I am referring to?

You don't surprise me in how lowly yo can go . It's INDEED in your DNA to spam and flood the page with slanders one after another that aren't related at all . When you got cornered , you decided to resort to this . I won't address it . I'll keep you cornered with the first thing you made this thread for .

I did address and you quoted part of it. I said God sends a strong delusion to those who refuse the love of truth.

That , according to you , is evil deception . But you're using double standards with Islam and Christianity .

A delusion is deception. But our God never made something appear to be true that wasn't leading to billions of billions of people into deception. That is how many died believing Jesus died and rose from the dead. Without Jesus' death and resurrection there would be no Christianity. This is what Allah meant by the best of planning? I am asking not telling you what to believe.

False ! Jews attempted to kill the Christ peace upon him . However , Allah deluded them to think that someone else was him . And if some people took that and made a religion out of it with no revelation of Allah , then you have absolutely no right claiming Allah misguided those people . THEY chose misguidance .

What filth are you referring to? How have I insulted you? what slander? I have no idea what you're talking about sister.

You didn't insult me . You did worse and insulted my religion calling it a "joke" . And I warn you again to watch it .

there is nothing rude about telling someone not to talk about something they don't know, but it was rude the way you said it. I accept that you a blind to your faults.

Maybe , and if it was , I'm not ashamed to admit it . So go ahead and work with your own advice . Don't be blind about your faults .

Deedat was an apologist. Apparently you don't know what that word means. It doesn't mean apologize: here is the definition: Apologist | Define Apologist at Dictionary.com

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Apologist

noun 1. a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc. 2. Ecclesiastical . a person skilled in apologetics

Then that's an indirect definition . Probably the same case as with "Fundamentalism" . So keep your vague terms to yourselves . People such as Ahmad Deedat are called scholars .

I believe I can do nothing without Christ.

If we agree on this , why the argument ?

You didn't come close to proving this. Where did your prophet's Quran say the torah or gospel is corrupted?

This is exactly why I was being "rude" to you . I provided two narrations . And in posts before this I provided signs - and you call them verses - from Quran . This is the bottom line .

**Burninglight** · 13-06-2014, 17:08

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And your point is ? Each time you're faced with something you resort to unrelated topics at all ! There are signs which can be interpreted in multiple ways , true . However , there are others which can't have a different meaning . And Allah did mention how the ones with astray hearts leave the crystal clear and resort to the other for their evil purposes.

I made the point and you addressed; so, why do you ask what you know? I wasn't changing the topic when I address you points. Let's not waste time on this and try rather to dispel misconceptions we have about one another's religion. Agreed?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

The signs amd narrations are crystal clear . There is absolutely no room for anyone to claim they don't say the people of the book corrupted them . Any form of acrobatic explanations is refused on the spot ..

They are crystal to you. There are Scriptures in the Quran that state we people of the Book are of highest standing, and that we should stand on the Scriptures revealed to us for there is nothing else we can do but stay firm. That is exactly what I am doing. The Quran was never revealed to me nor was the Book of Mormon as Mormons would have me believe.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

What's mentioned without proof , is refused without proof ...

I am glad you said that. Now, you understand exactly how I feel.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

As for the "We have the original scriptuers" which made me laugh , it's enough for you to know that you don't even have teh same version of the Bible around the world right now . I won't go any further. .

Now, you know exactly the way I feel again about the Quran. You have different English versions of the Quran as well. And you now know about Uthman. I won't go any further.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And YOU have source or evidence of what you claim ?! .

Yes, but you don't seem to. Personally, I think you just say what's on the top of your head.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

You don't surprise me in how lowly yo can go . It's INDEED in your DNA to spam and flood the page with slanders one after another that aren't related at all . When you got cornered , you decided to resort to this . I won't address it . I'll keep you cornered with the first thing you made this thread for ..

What is so low about saying I respect that you believe what you do or my believing that Islam is an Arabic religion, or that the Quran says we Christians must stand on what has been revealed to us for we can do no other. You rudely say I am going low and it is in my DNA, and you didn't answer my question. Do you know the Quranic verse I am referring to?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

That , according to you , is evil deception . But you're using double standards with Islam and Christianity .
False ! Jews attempted to kill the Christ peace upon him . However , Allah deluded them to think that someone else was him . And if some people took that and made a religion out of it with no revelation of Allah , then you have absolutely no right claiming Allah misguided those people . THEY chose misguidance ..

Yes, leading the Jews to believe that Jesus died and knowing that it would result in multiple billions going to hell for believing a lie Allah made to look true is not a god I want to serve. My Creator loves me and shed His blood for me, and will keep me on the last day. You will see me standing on the rock of my salvation.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

You didn't insult me . You did worse and insulted my religion calling it a "joke" . And I warn you again to watch it ..

You shouldn't take it personally. I don't take it personally when you cut down the Bible and Christianity. My God can defend himself. He doesn't need me fighting His battles. Now, I know it is a waste of time talking to you. I never said that Islam is a joke; go back and reread, and be honest for a change. I said it is a joke for Muslims to expect Christians to believe that someone died for Jesus instead of Him dying for our sin to save us from eternal damnation, and I'll say it again; so, warn all you want. Seriously, you are not to be taking seriously, IMO.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

Then that's an indirect definition . Probably the same case as with "Fundamentalism" . So keep your vague terms to yourselves . People such as Ahmad Deedat are called scholars ..

Now you are arguing with the dictionary. You just want to argue. I am not interested sister in arguing with you and I won't fall into you waste time traps.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

If we agree on this , why the argument ?.

PTL, we agree on something!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

This is exactly why I was being "rude" to you . I provided two narrations . And in posts before this I provided signs - and you call them verses - from Quran . This is the bottom line .

There is never an excuse to be rude. This is the bottom line.

**نصير الدين** · 14-06-2014, 13:45

Let's not waste time on this and try rather to dispel misconceptions we have about one another's religion. Agreed

So far , I haven't said almost a thing about Christianity . I've been trying to explain OUR belief to you . You on the other hand flooded the topic with an allegation after another while going on "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" ! So in reality , I'm the one clearing misconceptions - SERIOUS misconceptions - here .

They are crystal to you. There are Scriptures in the Quran that state we people of the Book are of highest standing, and that we should stand on the Scriptures revealed to us for there is nothing else we can do but stay firm. That is exactly what I am doing. The Quran was never revealed to me nor was the Book of Mormon as Mormons would have me believe.

"Facepalm"

Indeed ! You are EXACTLY as Allah describes in this sign :

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

So if you're gonna ignore what's clear and resort to acrobatic explanations of other signs to suit your liking , you should know that it's your heart that is astray . Red is red and blue is blue . Just because someone doesn't want to believe it doesn't change the fact that they are . How on Earth can you not understand something as simple as this ?! :

Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

So cowering behind "There are Muslims who interpret it differently" helps you in nothing .

Now, you know exactly the way I feel again about the Quran. You have different English versions of the Quran as well. And you now know about Uthman. I won't go any further.

If I remember the name , I'd give you a video of Ahmad Deedat answering this slander but I'm more than enough actually . There's somethign called "Version" and there's something called "Translation" . You Christians have different versions with one mentioning a verse and another not mentioning it . And you don't have the original scripture to return to and decide who's right and who's wrong . We on the other hand have ONE scripture of Quran in its original language that nobody disagrees on . A translation is NOT the scripture . It's a "Translation" ! Just because someone has a more accurate translation or the other way around doesn't mean in any way Quran has been altered ! That's why we don't recite Quran in another language (And if you bring up that "Quran is only for Arabians" again , you're gonn get it)
And since you're a coward , you didn't want to read this topic blasting your shameless lie about Uthman may Allah be pleased of him :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t193322.html

And as usual , instead of answering the argument , you resort to "Well you also have this X problem so I'm right !" . Apparently , you only find security in lying about others . And thus , if those lies are refuted , that security wll faze . And instead of admitting you're wrong about someone else - something that won't affect your belief in any way - you either make another slander or show extreme stubborness .

What is so low about saying I respect that you believe what you do or my believing that Islam is an Arabic religion, or that the Quran says we Christians must stand on what has been revealed to us for we can do no other. You rudely say I am going low and it is in my DNA, and you didn't answer my question. Do you know the Quranic verse I am referring to?

What's lowly is to escape a point into more and more baseless allegations instead of facing it . I know the sign and know that you interpret it absolutely wrongly . And I won't let you drag things astray from the main point you made this thread for .

Yes, leading the Jews to believe that Jesus died and knowing that it would result in multiple billions going to hell for believing a lie Allah made to look true is not a god I want to serve.

You're talking as if Allah is the one who deceived them . You completely ignore the other possibility - which I DID address in the last post ! - which is that evil doers are the ones who made a religion of it . Allah deluded the Jews into believing they killed Christ . He didn't tell people that he - who they thought dead - rose from the dead or that they should worship him . THEY are the ones who chose falsehood . You don't differ from an Atheists who looks at the crimes of Stalin and Mao - who are ironically Atheists too - and blames the creator for it and make them look like innocent deers .

You shouldn't take it personally. I don't take it personally when you cut down the Bible and Christianity

A blunt lie . I haven't insulted your religion at all . I just mentioned my religion saying it is false and its book is corrupted . If you compare that to your lack of manners , you should say the same about your religion and all other religions as each one says it's the way to salvation and the rest are the doing of mankind or the devil . Maybe you lack faith so much as to smile and laugh when someone badmouthes your religion but we are not . Indeed , Allah can doom you all on the spot if you dare even say a single bad word about Islam , but he tests people and also gives wrong doers time to repent , and if they don't , their punishment is harsher . That doesn't mean however to be a cold blooded reptile .

My God can defend himself. He doesn't need me fighting His battles.

And that's why a human fought and defeated him . Then again , he died , so why not ? A nice attempt to hide insolence behind "belief" .

I never said that Islam is a joke; go back and reread, and be honest for a change. I said it is a joke for Muslims to expect Christians to believe that someone died for Jesus instead of Him dying for our sin to save us from eternal damnation, and I'll say it again; so, warn all you want.

A nice - and miserably failing - way to say the same thing differently .

Now you are arguing with the dictionary. You just want to argue. I am not interested sister in arguing with you and I won't fall into you waste time traps.

Visit a doctor for your eyes pal , you're talking with a male . And just because it's a "dictionary" doesn't make right by default . It didn't even explain the word according to language . It explained it according to people's usage of it . As said , we don't "apologize" . And regardless of what your vague terms mean , leave them to yourselves . We're clear on what we name .

There is never an excuse to be rude. This is the bottom line.

There's a meaning to put words between (") . That's the bottom line .

**Burninglight** · 14-06-2014, 23:31

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

So far , I haven't said almost a thing about Christianity. I've been trying to explain OUR belief to you . You on the other hand flooded the topic with an allegation after another while going on "Islam doesn't say the Bible is corrupted" ! So in reality , I'm the one clearing misconceptions - SERIOUS misconceptions - here .

First of all, my apologies for thinking you were a sister, but since your not, I'll continue to playing hardball with you brother of humanity. I 'll concede that Islam states the Bible is corrupted even though it has no proof when, where, how and who benefited from such an untruth. If it is corrupted, then so is the Quran especially when Islam says Allah's word is unalterable; moreover, you might think you've said nothing about Christianity, but from where I stand, nothing could be further from the truth. I see Islam as a religion that is a reaction to its misconceptions of Christianity, and it begins with your god and his slave who tells us not to say three, but he doesn't know who the three are that we are not to say from what can be inferred logically from the Quran. I can tell just by the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me? This would make Allah the third of the three as Allah said, "they do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." Allah challenges me to find a discrepancy in his words, and I accept. Allah, I would like to know who has made you the third of three or who has made the son, mother and father a trinity with you being the third?
There is no such three in Christianity, and we don't know from what you imply you mentioned in your question to Jesus; for instance, who might consider Mary or the mother of Jesus part of the three you tell people to desist from saying. Allah you never mentioned the Holy Spirit who is the third person of God's tri unity in Christianity. In light of this, I would still like to know why don't Muslims accept Jesus as the only way to the father, and who could possible make money corrupting the Scripture to say lies? Why would the apostles and others risk their lives to preach a tale? Where logic and reason God gave me fail here they seem to succeed with you. "Facebalm"

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

"Facepalm"

Indeed ! You are EXACTLY as Allah describes in this sign :

So if you're gonna ignore what's clear and resort to acrobatic explanations of other signs to suit your liking , you should know that it's your heart that is astray . Red is red and blue is blue . Just because someone doesn't want to believe it doesn't change the fact that they are . How on Earth can you not understand something as simple as this ?!

So cowering behind "There are Muslims who interpret it differently" helps you in nothing .

No Christian on this forum has coward and you know it. You are exactly as the Scriptures describe: For the preaching of the cross is to those who perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God 1 Corn. 1:18

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

[CENTER]
If I remember the name , I'd give you a video of Ahmad Deedat answering this slander but I'm more than enough actually . There's somethign called "Version" and there's something called "Translation" . You Christians have different versions with one mentioning a verse and another not mentioning it . And you don't have the original scripture to return to and decide who's right and who's wrong . We on the other hand have ONE scripture of Quran in its original language that nobody disagrees on . A translation is NOT the scripture . It's a "Translation" ! Just because someone has a more accurate translation or the other way around doesn't mean in any way Quran has been altered ! That's why we don't recite Quran in another language (And if you bring up that "Quran is only for Arabians" again , you're gonn get it)
And since you're a coward , you didn't want to read this topic blasting your shameless lie about Uthman may Allah be pleased of him :

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t193322.html

I looked at your source. Can you tell me why Uthman didn't use memory to recompile the Quran, and why was the support text (Hafsah's copy) he used destroyed, and please while you're at it tell me who gave the non prophet Uthman the divine mandate to put the Quran to writing much less edit it; IOW, how does one get write out of say or recite??? "Facebalm"

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And as usual , instead of answering the argument , you resort to "Well you also have this X problem so I'm right !" . Apparently , you only find security in lying about others . And thus , if those lies are refuted , that security wll faze . And instead of admitting you're wrong about someone else - something that won't affect your belief in any way - you either make another slander or show extreme stubborness .

What's lowly is to escape a point into more and more baseless allegations instead of facing it . I know the sign and know that you interpret it absolutely wrongly . And I won't let you drag things astray from the main point you made this thread for .

The shoe fits you much better here.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

You're talking as if Allah is the one who deceived them .

Tell me, who made it appear that Jesus died? I rest my case. "Facebalm"

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

You completely ignore the other possibility - which I DID address in the last post ! - which is that evil doers are the ones who made a religion of it . Allah deluded the Jews into believing they killed Christ . He didn't tell people that he - who they thought dead - rose from the dead or that they should worship him . THEY are the ones who chose falsehood . You don't differ from an Atheists who looks at the crimes of Stalin and Mao - who are ironically Atheists too - and blames the creator for it and make them look like innocent deers .

A blunt lie . I haven't insulted your religion at all . I just mentioned my religion saying it is false and its book is corrupted . If you compare that to your lack of manners , you should say the same about your religion and all other religions as each one says it's the way to salvation and the rest are the doing of mankind or the devil . Maybe you lack faith so much as to smile and laugh when someone badmouthes your religion but we are not . Indeed , Allah can doom you all on the spot if you dare even say a single bad word about Islam , but he tests people and also gives wrong doers time to repent , and if they don't , their punishment is harsher . That doesn't mean however to be a cold blooded reptile .

Why would Christians go around bearing witness to a lie at the peril of their lives and why would Allah wait hundreds of years later to set the record straight with the Quran if it were contrived? Logic and reason fails here, but you are willing to believe it. I cannot.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

And that's why a human fought and defeated him . Then again , he died , so why not ? A nice attempt to hide insolence behind "belief" .

God let him win to accomplish His will and purposes. It is like a father letting his child beat him at something. It is sad that I have to spoon feed you something you should be able to figure out yourself.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة نصير الدين مشاهدة المشاركة

A nice - and miserably failing - way to say the same thing differently .

And just because it's a "dictionary" doesn't make right by default . It didn't even explain the word according to language . It explained it according to people's usage of it . As said , we don't "apologize" . And regardless of what your vague terms mean , leave them to yourselves . We're clear on what we name .

I spoke the truth in love; why are you are being obtuse?

Peace & blessings to you
BL

**نصير الدين** · 15-06-2014, 14:03

I 'll concede that Islam states the Bible is corrupted even though it has no proof when, where, how and who benefited from such an untruth.

Again , this is a different subject . I stated our belief in Islam .

If it is corrupted, then so is the Quran especially when Islam says Allah's word is unalterable;

It doesn't say it this way in Islam . You seem to have a misconception here - no surprise really ! - about altering the word of Allah . There is a tablet called "Allaoh Al-Mahfuz" , everything is recorded in it about everything that happens until the judgement day . THAT is the one which doesn't change or is altered . But people CAN misinterpret or alter the message they get . We see it all the time . I saw missionaries inventing signs from the top of their heads to support their agendas . Does that mean the word of Allah was altered in the meaning you address ? No . Allah knew that they will make this attempt and it's recorded . Nothing changed about the knowledge of Allah . When it comes to the Jews and Christians and any other people , their books were revealed for them and their time only - an Islamic belief - and thus they were entrusted to preserve them and they failed . Quran however is for all people and time , and thus Allah said he will preserve it . That's our belief in Islam . It is non of your concern .

I see Islam as a religion that is a reaction to its misconceptions of Christianity, and it begins with your god and his slave who tells us not to say three, but he doesn't know who the three are that we are not to say from what can be inferred logically from the Quran.

Once again , you are enforced by your DNA to spam slanders after slanders . That's indeed a serious disease . as for this new one about the worship of Mary peace upon her , did the sign address you ? Did it say that Catholic , Protestant , or any other group in Christianity is the one that worshiped her ? It states that there are ones who did . And unless you prove that there aren't , you should remain silent . Then again , here's a topic about the subject , most of it is Arabic but there are sources in English :

https://www.elforkan.com/7ewar/showth...AD%D9%88%D9%84

No Christian on this forum has coward and you know it.

Well YOU are the coward I'm talking about . You clearly ignore every source I provide and go on with your allegations .

I looked at your source. Can you tell me why Uthman didn't use memory to recompile the Quran, and why was the support text (Hafsah's copy) he used destroyed, and please while you're at it tell me who gave the non prophet Uthman the divine mandate to put the Quran to writing much less edit it; IOW, how does one get write out of say or recite???

"Sigh"
I'll make it short since you're so desperate . Uthman may Allah be pleased of him saw some people differing in reading Quran after many numbers of non Arabians embraced Islam . And some people would write their own explanations as foot notes and such in the scriptures and papers they write Quran on . That , along with other things made him take the move of stopping a problem from rising . He wrote Quran in one piece wiht the approval of all the memorizers and companions which are the exact and same as the ones written during the time of the prophet peace upon him . Then he burnt the different writings which were not the original in the first place to avoid any differing from the original scripture . After that , he made copies of it and sent it to different places around the Islamic world . And thus , he united Muslims on one reading and avoided mistakes . That's your first lie . And the second is the one of claiming he "edited" it . And so far , you failed each single time to bring ONE source of your ignorant claims .

Tell me, who made it appear that Jesus died?

Tell me who made a religion of it without ANY revelation of Allah . I rest my case .

Why would Christians go around bearing witness to a lie at the peril of their lives and why would Allah wait hundreds of years later to set the record straight with the Quran if it were contrived? Logic and reason fails here, but you are willing to believe it. I cannot.

Since I'm not so sure , I'll ask the people of the knowledge . But it's hilarious how you answer it yourself in the NEXT quote !

God let him win to accomplish His will and purposes.

إعـــــــلان

Why don't Muslsims believe Jesus is the only way to God?

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