إعـــــــلان

**ابو علي الفلسطيني** · 18-11-2010, 19:48

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

You are Welcome Mr. German.Bergheim and I/m really happy to talk to you here at this forum and discuss each other in many issues that are related to religion and other aspects of life

So first of all I would like to welcome you here and I will have my first reply on your gentle letter

hope you will enjoy the discussion here

**ابو علي الفلسطيني** · 18-11-2010, 19:55

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Why Religion??

As you know my friend German.Bergheim, God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death.
That's why, God has sent many prophets to teach the humans the right way to God.
People on earth , for sorry, have mislead the way to God because of their bad thoughts and because of disobeying God.

You know that there are many religions on earth. But Is all the religions on earth are true??
I will answer in my next reply

**ابو علي الفلسطيني** · 18-11-2010, 20:07

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Why Islam??

As I told you my friend, there are many religions on earth. And these religions some of them are from God, and others are human made.
To explain more, we Muslims, believe that Judaism and Christianity are two religions from God, but for sorry, the followers of these two religions mislead the way to God.
You may ask me how!! I tell you that the Judaism changed god teachings and make God similar to humans by describing him doing things similar to humans like wrestling, eating ...etc
The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god ...

That's why God sent prophet Mohammad with the Holy Quran to tell people that the real God is the one who has the supreme power over everything, who is one with no partner and he is God who has no needs like humans.
And God told us that Christians and Jews have changed God's teachings and that's why they are wrong.

This is an introduction for our dialogue here, and I would like to hear your comment after this
I'm waiting your reply

**كوبرلّي** · 18-11-2010, 20:09

U R welcome our guest in our forum and i hope brother Abu Ali Alfelistine answer ur questions

best wishes

**الفضة** · 18-11-2010, 20:27

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

I have been introduced to this forum by her to discuss about problems of converting to Islam

welcome to the forum colleague ,

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

On the other hand I have honestly to confess that I do not have any problem because according to my opinion humans are humans independant from their religion whether christian or moslem or any other religion

Thus the question turns up: why converting to Islam

simply because Islam means to surrender to Allah's will & guidance .

Would you tell us why not convert to Islam ? What makes Islam not your way of life?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

noone has the right to judge about other people to stipulate any belief

I really don't know what you mean by saying this , Islam doesn't force people to believe as Allah said to prophet Mohammed P.B.U.H. : "18|29|Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

Now it is up to you to judge about me, whether I am high brow, arrogant or anything else

But do me a favour, discuss openly by sticking to the point without calling me disregardful to religion or God

we don't wanna call you so, but I think that you were talking about our being humans ....so that it doesn't matter which faith one chooses to follow .

This is what I conclude.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

If someone here prefers to tease me as a blasphemer, you do not know me personnally

I think that nobody here in this forum wants to tease you .
That's not an option.
& by the way we don't consider non - moslems villain , but we think that Good deeds of a non-moslem will be of no avail on Day of Judgement.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

I have my values and qualities and maybe I am a more religious and responsable person than these persons that name themselves religious and submit to God

Well here you consider ethics more reliable than faith.

6|48|We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Whoso believeth and doeth right, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

2|177|It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

So do not forget, we all are Humans on one earth and respect and responsibility are mandatory from all of us towards all of us

of course.

**الفضة** · 18-11-2010, 23:00

we're waiting to hear from you colleague

**German.Bergheim** · 18-11-2010, 23:54

Yes, thank you for your welcome and enjoy our sharp, but fair, discussion
As I am not able to read Arab, I am not able to address you personnally but be assured, that I will answer your issues as best as I can

So now: medias in res, directly to the point:

I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

In our eyes religion is not neither an agenda neither a timetable
From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

And why this?

Yes, because it is true, religion is human-made This does not imply anything good or bad
The creation of the world is something phantastic, nobody is able to understand that

So religion is a measure to make it understandable, the creation of the world, the nature as well as the comprehension of humans

My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows, so religion is a good measure to understand, to comprehend and also to cope with the fascination of creation

You wrote [COLOR="Lime"]God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death[/COLOR

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong
Furthermore you write: and he is God who has no needs like humansExactly, so God does not need us

More-over you write: The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god
This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität
And on my behalf I do not worship, I believe or you can say I verify my responsibility in my daily life and I am the only one to be responsible

As I said in the beginning Christianity is neither an agenda, neither a timetable and this is the evident difference between Christianity and Islam
Christianity does not want followers on its behalf, Christianity demands responsibility, maturity
For some people this is a great problem They prefer having rules how to behave, but Christianity from the protestant point of view needs people to be mature, to assess from their own
Unfortunately humans are egoistic and selfish, so we have always problems in policy, in economy, ecology, sociology, paedagogy and so on and so on until we come to religion, there we come to different opinions, believes also, so are humans

One last question in the end?

Are Muslems better humans than Christians
Are Christians better humans than Muslems
Are Jewish better humans thanChristians or Muslems

No, not at all,

humans are equal all over the world
There is no human preferred or discriminated, we all are human

**د/مسلمة** · 19-11-2010, 00:42

First of all, you are welcome in our forum

I hope you enjoy your discussion with us

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

You wrote God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong

So why did God create human according to Christianity?

_____________

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first: copy the text you need to quote --> then highlight it
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**ابو علي الفلسطيني** · 19-11-2010, 01:05

In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful

Thank you my friend for your post and I have some comments on it, hopping that you will read them with an open mind.

you say:

I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

I will take this into consideration in our discussions.

From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

You are right.

My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

Yes, we are humans. God has created everything for the benefit of the human beings.

Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows

I disagree with you my friend. If we say that, then this means that God has created everything without knowing why he did this !!!! and this is not true for many reasons...

God has created the universe and everything in this planet for reasonable reasons ... God cannot do anything that may appear to us as a non-sense action or unreasonable...
we are created to worship God and to glorify him.... to thank him for his good things that he makes to us ... and i will explain this ...through my post

If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong

Our worship to God doesn't mean that he needs us to worship him... and if we don't he will be weak ...
no ... our worship to God is to glorify him ... and ti show our admission in his power and to show our commitment towards his teachings ...

and let me ask you a question:
why Christians go to church in sunday?? and why Jesus himself was praying to God as mentioned in the Bible and here is the verse:
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12

does God needs Jesus pray?? of course not, but Jesus was doing this to obey God's teachings.
this is why we worship God

This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität

the trinity in Christianity means that you worship three Gods not one... and by the way, the word (trinity) never mentioned in the Bible... and if we read the Bible we will find out that these three gods are separate from each other ... so you don't actually believe in one God

humans are equal all over the world

Islam doesn't say that people who believe in Christianity or other religions are not human... but we must know that our right believe in God determines our humanity...
Throughout the history, people wear treated according to thier race and their color...
you see what America is doing in the world ... so do all the human are treated the same from Christians??
No, ...
Being a Muslim doesn't mean you are not a human anymore ... but believe me you will not feel yourself a human until you follow Islam ... because it is the only religion on earth who belive in one God ... who respect the others and treat them the

same ...

I am wating your comment

**كوبرلّي** · 19-11-2010, 01:21

If our brother Abu Ali allowed me WE DON'T WORSHIP GOT CUZ HE NEEDS US , WE WORSHIP HIM CUZ WE NEED HIM,WE NEED HIS GIFTS ,WE NEED HIS MERCY WE NEED HIS SATISFACTION

according to the Bible the un-Christian or the un-Jewish is just an animal

Where is the human rights in Cursed is he who does the work of the LORD deceitfully
And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.
JEREMIAH 48:10 (NEW KING JAMES VERSION)

16 Samaria is held guilty,[i]
For she has rebelled against her God.
They shall fall by the sword,
Their infants shall be dashed in pieces,
And their women with child ripped open.
HOSEA 13:16 (NEW KING JAMES VERSION)

This is just a simple gesture on human rights in the Bible applied by America in Iraq and Afghanistan

best wishes

**الفضة** · 19-11-2010, 06:12

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

Yes, thank you for your welcome and enjoy our sharp, but fair, discussion

I hope it won't be too sharp;

Allah said:29|46|And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

So now: medias in res, directly to the point:

I stand for christianity in my belief, this means that I speak from my "evangelischem" point of view, as a Christian Protestant

In our eyes religion is not neither an agenda neither a timetable
From my point of view religion demands reponsability from the human

what's wrong with agendas & timetables ?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

And why this?

Yes, because it is true, religion is human-made This does not imply anything good or bad

In christianity we notice this especially when we read a book like "misquoting Jesus " for Bart Ehrman " .

but the concept of religion is totally different in Islam .

In Arabic language religion (deen) means authority , faith, judgement ,submission ,recompense.

Allah said:3|19|Lo! religion with Allah (is) The Surrender (to His will and guidance).

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

My approach to religion is human, we all are not Christians, nor Muslems, nor of other religion, WE are HUMANS

Allah said :49|13|O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

Why the world, the nature and the humans are created, nobody knows, really nobody knows, so religion is a good measure to understand, to comprehend and also to cope with the fascination of creation

I agree with you .

Allah said :51|56|I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

Allah said :23|115|Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us?

Allah said:6|165|He it is who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo! Thy Lord is swift in prosecution, and lo! He is Forgiving, Merciful.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

You wrote God has created the world and created us to worship him and to live in this world by his teachings. If we do that we will be happy at life and after death

According to my opinion this is wrong
In contrary, this proves that religion is human-made
It is a typically human trait to claim for God that he needs us to worship him
If I were a king, then it would be human to raise my self-esteem by my inferiors worshipping me
If I am a public or private authority, then it would be my trait and need to be admired, to be accepted, to be popular

How can we proclaim that God wants to be worshipped, this is typically human
Yes, the world and the nature with human beings is fascinating This is true and nobody can deny it
If somebody tells me, human’s duty is to worship this will make me think that God needs us humans and that is wrong
Furthermore you write: and he is God who has no needs like humansExactly, so God does not need us

I agree with you that Allah Almighty doesn't need us at all & that was stated in the Quran :

29|6|And whosoever striveth, striveth only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether Independent of (His) creatures.

Hadith Qudsi :Narrated Abu-Dhar :The Prophet said that Allah said: O My slaves! I have forbidden injustice for Myself, so it is forbidden amongst you. So, do not be unjust to each other. O My slave! All of you are liable to go astray except the one whom I guide on the right path. So (always) seek guidance from Me, I will guide you. O My slave! All of you are hungry except the one whom I feed. So ask Me for food. I shall feed you. O My slave! All of you are naked except the one whom I make wear. So ask Me to make you wear and I shall make you wear. O My slave! You commit mistakes (sins) by day and night; and I forgive all the sins. So ask Me forgiveness, I shall forgive you (your sins). O My slaves! You will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O My slaves! Were the first of you and the last of you, the human being of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one of you, that would not increase My Kingdom anything. O My slaves! Were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one of you, that would not decrease My kingdom anything. O My slaves! Were the first of you, the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in any place and make a request to Me and I have to give every one what he requested, that would not decrease what I have anything more than a needle decreases the sea if it is put into it. O My slaves! Rather it is but your deeds which I will reckon for you, and then recompense for. So let, who finds good, praise Allah and let, who finds other than that, blame no one but himself.

(This Hadith is sound and related by Muslim)

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

More-over you write: The Christians also worship three Gods in one, and claim that Jesus is another god
This is not correct, there is one God, the Father, Jesus, his Son and the Spirit, this is called Trinität

why don't you just say that you believe in one God ?

there's nothing mentioned in TNK about the trinity .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

And on my behalf I do not worship, I believe or you can say I verify my responsibility in my daily life and I am the only one to be responsible

I can understand why you don't worship for Jesus as he never claimed being someone to be worshipped .

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and himonly shalt thou serve.

I won't comment on that verse .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

As I said in the beginning Christianity is neither an agenda, neither a timetable and this is the evident difference between Christianity and Islam

I disagree with you , we don't believe in "deity of Jesus " nor the" original sin" neither "the crucifiction & redemption " & lots of other differences .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

Christianity does not want followers on its behalf, Christianity demands responsibility, maturity

if christianity doesn't want followers , why sending missionaries all over the world ?

even atheists need to be responsible &mature to go on in this life . Everyone needs to be responsible & mature .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

For some people this is a great problem They prefer having rules how to behave, but Christianity from the protestant point of view needs people to be mature, to assess from their own

To follow rules doesn't mean that one can't or doesn't assess oneself .

But the question is : Are these rules Divine ?

if yes : one should follow .

if not :one shouldn't .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

Unfortunately humans are egoistic and selfish, so we have always problems in policy, in economy, ecology, sociology, paedagogy and so on and so on until we come to religion, there we come to different opinions, believes also, so are humans

But that doesn't mean that everyone is right .

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة German.Bergheim مشاهدة المشاركة

One last question in the end?

Are Muslems better humans than Christians
Are Christians better humans than Muslems
Are Jewish better humans thanChristians or Muslems

No, not at all,

humans are equal all over the world
There is no human preferred or discriminated, we all are human

yes & that's what makes every mentally healthy adult responsible for his acts & choices in life .

And peace will be for him who followeth right guidance.

**مهدي بنزياد** · 19-11-2010, 06:52

you are so welcome
your problem is you treate relegions as an accessories. but islam take relegion as the important thing in the humain life. God said that those who beleive that jesus is the God are infidels.
the prophet muhammed said *any christian who hear about me and he didn't beleive in me will not entre the paradise*
so you should shose in this life so you can save'it in the other life .the truth is very very clear . you just have to search and use you head .

**German.Bergheim** · 20-11-2010, 02:31

Thank you for your numerous comments and statements
Unfortunately I cannot answer to every one, because it would take too much time Moreover I cannot answer only in one sentence

First of all In Christianity there are not three Gods

There is the only God, figured as the Father, then there is his Son Jesus and then there is the Spirit

You are open to define what this means, spirit can be characterized as the message of humanity, being in all of us, preferably filled with ethical comprehension and recognition

Second of all, I am a Christian (evangelischer Protestant) Our belief is open-minded and not narrow-minded to the Bible only, we are not bond to the Bible, because in our belief the Bible is not given nor written by God, but human-made

This implies that the Bible is a book as a pattern of thinking, it suggests you advice, it suggests you proposals
According to our moral, ethical view, our education, our knowledge we are free to think what we want, but we are responsible towards ourselves as well as towards other people

Now to the central question, someone of you has put

Why are humans created according to Christianity?

Yes, this is a very complex question and as complex is the answer

The answer depends on your approach

A theologian would answer that humankind is created to exist and produce on earth associated with the problems that normally arise between humans and also acknowledging that there is a vis major, mostly called God

A scientist would answer that humankind has the knowledge to exist on earth and to make use of all the science

A sociologist would answer that you have the responsibility for yourself and for the society of humans

There are more answers or you can choose to take a little or all of them, but in the end it is your own opinion.

Regarding religion I confirm that thinking about humankind, nature and science you cannot be ignorant and you have to put questions. But the answers vary, from your point of view and so do religions also

But you cannot claim that one answer is the only right one. Ok, you can pretend for your behalf to have found the one and only answer, but that is only your opinion

As long as it is your opinion I accept it and I do not have any problems with or against that, but I cannot accept that some people proclaim to have found the one and only right answer

**مهدي بنزياد** · 20-11-2010, 03:38

my freind..fo you think that we dont know christianity ??
we know about christianity more than the pope..hhh .im kidding
but we know a lot..
we know that you worshiping the one God that he is holy trinity. but the question her is : did jesus said that ? in the gosples ?
is the holy trinty exist in the bible ? did any one of the prophets of the old tastment speak about the holy trinity ?
yes ot no ?
look man.. we dont shose relegion coz its nice , we shose relegion coz its the truth
in islam God said that people should think and use their minds to shose, not the heart .

إعـــــــلان

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