Huria.. Is this your thread of proofs? You said you would answer my ...so far unanswered questions.. That being..

~ who corrupted the scriptures? ~ why the need to change the scripture? ~ and when did this happen? ~ I thought this was to be the topic... And you have the evidence..

Huria, I am a woman blessed by God with a great measure of patience.. I hope you are not going to try that patience sorely. ;)

***sigh***

To your question ... I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. It is not possible for such a Book to exist if it were not divinely inspired. As it is not possible for God to lie or deceive then the Bible has to be truth.

Im not sure if you want me to add anything else .. Indeed I'm not entirely sure why you even ask the question.

Pandora you admit it's not only God's word?

Huria, is this going to set the tone for this thread? Did you read my post? Or simply chose to skim and seek for one word or phrase that you see can may somehow trip me up and prove your point? Come on... Get with the programme here!!!!! :)

what I said was ~ The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. ~ how do you get it's not only God's word from that? Do you know what inspired means? I'm sure you do. A dictionary definition is at follows..

in·spired [in-spahyuhrd]
adjective
1.
aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or as if by supernatural or divine influence: an inspired poet.
2.
resulting from such inspiration: an inspired poem; an inspired plan.
3.
inhaled: inspired air.

you already know that unlike the Quran the Bible is not ONE book, but a collection of Books. These Books contain the direct revelation from God to Prophets such as Moses.. Abraham etc. some Prophets received their revelations from God through dreams and visions. Other received their revelation by inspiration through the Holy Spirit. Inspiration is a given understanding of God's message that He wills to be relayed to mankind through His creation. Those conveying that message will use language of the time .. Their own words. The meaning behind those words are Gods. That is why we believe the Bible to be an inspired word of God. The teachings of Jesus we see as Gods word directly.. Because Jesus is Gods uncreated eternal word. The entire Bible as one book, you could say has one author, the Holy Spirit, and has one purpose the fall of man, and God’s way to redeem him, one theme. For example... you cannot understand the book of Revelation in the New Testament unless you study the books of Genesis and Daniel in the Old Testament.. You cannot understand the book of Hebrews in the New Testament unless you study the book of Leviticus in the Old Testament. Given that the creation of the Bible was over a period of 1500 by 40 different authors from all walks of life... On 3 continents it can only be inspired by God.. It would be impossible to produce such a work by mans efforts alone.

Timothy 3:16-17.


“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete [mature], thoroughly equipped for every good work.”



Lord Jesus said


“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

I hope my explanation is clear enough.... And not overlong.

Peace to you.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

Get with the programme here!

Do not worry we will get to the truth, it just I don’t want this thread to be chatting thread like you normally do, and this is the last reply to any side talks

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. how do you get it's not only God's word from that? Do you know what inspired means? I'm sure you do. A dictionary definition is at follows

No dictionary needed, and I am not misquoting you, I am trying to understand, if you really think it is word of men I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.

So let’s see what you have said

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

The Bible contains Gods direct words to His Prophets!

Direct words how did that reach us? By the gospels writers by inspiration from the holy ghost?

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

and the words of men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.!

Then you say the words of men inspired by the holy spirit?? So I am really confused here what do you mean!!!

The first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?

Please clarify ..

What do you mean??

Then you say this!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

Those conveying that message will use language of the time .Their own words. The meaning behind those words are Gods

What does that mean, God behind the words?? Is it God’s words or their words, their expressions? Before you say I am misquoting you, you are saying it is in their own words!

If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

you already know that unlike the Quran the Bible is not ONE book, but a collection of Books

Unlike the bible, every letter in the Quran is word of God.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

Bible is not ONE book, but a collection of Books

Well this is the first problem before deciding if the Bible was divine or not, how many books are divine 66 or 73?

Huria, with all due respect I don't think this is going to work. You keeping promising evidences but don't deliver. ~ who changed the scriptures? Why did they feel it necessary? And when did they do it? ~ I can only assume that you don't actually have the information. Besides you don't seem able to understand anything I say, even when I make the effort to simplify things.. You still can't see it. I'm of the opinion that you can't allow yourself to see what I say.. Rather than you lack the intelligence... Because you obviously are intelligent and have an excellent command of the English language.. So I'm at a loss to see how we can get past this.



Given that we have a limited life span on this earth.. Is there any danger of getting to this "truth" any time soon? Chatting!!! Side talks!!! Indeedy.. If you just post your evidence to my questions I can consider what you have and see weather God will allow me to see the truth of it. If I cannot see the truth of it or it does not make sense then we may discuss it further or not...
I believe I said I was a wordy person... That's how God made me.. Get over it.

No dictionary needed, and I am not misquoting you, I am trying to understand, if you really think it is word of men I have no case to prove, you already have done it for me.

I always try to be as helpful as I can. But if you feel you have more to bring.. Then bring it on.

So let’s see what you have said

Direct words how did that reach us? By the gospels writers by inspiration from the holy ghost?

Why are you confused by this?? God spoke His words directly to certain Prophets in the Bible.. Moses.. Abraham.. And Noah.. For starts. Jesus goes without saying..that's a given. Are you quibbling about who actually wrote down the words in the first instance? Or doubting that these direct spoken words of God to His chosen Prophets were not given due respect and treated in a shabby manner and who ever just made it up?
So I take it you obviously must know the names of all the scribes that first penned the Quran? Who gathered the fragments of various materials and copied it all into the form you have today.

Then you say the words of men inspired by the holy spirit?? So I am really confused here what do you mean!!!

maybe you're confused because you lack the knowledge of the Holy Spirit and all it entails. I can see that may be a possible stumbling block for you. The Holy Spirit inspires the minds of men.. Jesus promised the Spirit would strengthen the Disciples and enable them to remember correctly all He had taught and preach His message to all mankind. The Holy Spirit brings knowledge and understanding of Gods will, even today Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides us to the right path. The Holy Spirit does not dictate the words but brings an understanding of what needs to be told.

The first part is god’s direct words? And in the second part you said is men? You see how it sounds!! It does not make any sense?

Please clarify ..

What do you mean??

I really cannot think how I can make things any clearer than that... If you still don't get the point I'm trying to make, then maybe this thread... Although well intentioned... Is doomed to failure before it even starts.

Its in your hands.. Peace to you

Still with itch the chit chat!!!!!!!


We do not believe that all the Bible is the actual words of God. We DO believe that all the Bible is the inspired word of God. That's to say.. The Prophets, authors.. Whatever .... were given the understanding and guidance by God as to what the Bible message was to be. That message is clear, consistent, has no contradictions or errors as you see there to be.

[QUOTE]If the bible is word of God we expect it to be consistent, and has no contradiction, men's words however cannot be free from errors, so it cannot be both, so which one is it?you can’t have your cake and eat it.[/QURAN]

We see the Bibles message is clear, and consistent. Any work that bears the hand of man it is possible to contain error. This is even true of the Quran.. It has to be because if you claim that the hands of men who committed Gods word to written form in the Bible then the same has to be true of the Quran. Because the Muslim scribes were human and as such would have been prone to making the same spelling or textual errors. This should not affect the message any. Because Gods word (as in the message) cannot be changed.

Unlike the bible, every letter in the Quran is word of God.

Well, that's your belief.. Which in itself raises problems because any contradiction.. (And I believe there are quite a few... Although you would deny it. ) it then looks as if God has made a mistake, and as we know that is not possible.

Well this is the first problem before deciding if the Bible was divine or not, how many books are divine 66 or 73?

Not a problem for me at all.. Jesus was always the message not the messenger... If we have that we have everything we need. The books 66 or 73 or even more... Add a rich historical perspective to the unfolding of Gods plan for mankind. It's a beautiful, perfect plan.. One that can only be attributed to a Holy and loving God.
It shouldn't be a problem for you either... As you have already bought out of the plan.. And made another choice. So it doesn't impact on your life on earth at all. :) so.. Have a good one .. Life that is..

peace to you.

Greetings once again Huria, apologies just one more chit chat point to add... You said..

please I do not need a thesis from you attempting to point out all the errors you see in the Bible, in the hope you can prove it is not an inspired work of God. That's been done before.. As exercises go I consider it a waste of time. Christians in general have faith that God guides as He wills. It's the understanding of the message that's important not the words that are used in the telling. That understanding comes from the Holy Spirit and anyone who accepts Christ the in dwelling of the Spirit is part and parcel of the package. I tell you this as I don't wish that you waste your time on a long drawn out pamphlet style post that will prove nothing in respect to my having faith in God, and accepting Jesus as my saviour.

Really what I would find useful is to see this proof you have to the three simple points I make...

who changed the scriptures? ~ when were they changed? ~ and why was it thought necessary to make the changes?

If you can offer your proof of these points I will be happy to read it.. If you have any proof of what exactly was changed then that's a bonus. But a big ask so don't knock yourself out on that one. :)

peace and blessings. May God guide you.

Quran 2:79 “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.”.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

So I take it you obviously must know the names of all the scribes that first penned the Quran? Who gathered the fragments of various materials and copied it all into the form you have today.

We do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!

We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)

Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

please I do not need a thesis from you attempting to point out all the errors you see in the Bible, in the hope you can prove it is not an inspired work of God. That's been done before.. As exercises go I consider it a waste of time. Christians in general have faith that God guides as He wills. It's the understanding of the message that's important not the words that are used in the telling. .

Do not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are many

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

We do not believe that all the Bible is the actual words of God. We DO believe that all the Bible is the inspired word of God.

Wow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.


Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)

· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.

· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least

· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.

· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!

· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

who changed the scriptures? Why did they feel it necessary? And when did they do it? ~

You keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

maybe you're confused because you lack the knowledge of the Holy Spirit and all it entails . . The Holy Spirit does not dictate the words but brings an understanding of what needs to be told.

May be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20

Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12

Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

The Holy Spirit brings knowledge and understanding of Gods will, even today Christians believe the Holy Spirit guides us to the right path.

Christians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

Any work that bears the hand of man it is possible to contain error. This is even true of the Quran.. It has to be because if you claim that the hands of men who committed Gods word to written form in the Bible then the same has to be true of the Quran. Because the Muslim scribes were human and as such would have been prone to making the same spelling or textual errors.

Although the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82

The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.

The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:

"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)

and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:

“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)

The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.

One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.

You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.

I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39

“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7

Before I address your opening statement I would like if you please for you to explain to me what you take as the meaning of this Sura.

We do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!

We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)

Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)

Is this your opinion, the opinion of all muslims or just particular sects of Islam? The text below from Wiki.. The link is there if you wish to take a look and offer alternative proof.

Due to the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in disjointed verses and chapters, a point came when it needed to be gathered into a coherent whole text. There are disagreements among both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars as to when the Qur'an was compiled. Some believe Muhammad compiled it before he died, while others believe it was collected by either Ali ibn Abu Talib or Abu Bakr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

Do not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are many

Good.. I am pleased to hear that!

Wow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.

Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)

· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.

· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least

· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.

· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!

· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

Weather it be Gods word spoken to His Prophets by God Himself or Gods word brought through His Spirits inspiration it's one and the same. That you cannot see this is a slight cause for concern. We see it as the authoritative word of God and do not doubt Gods power to protect His word from all corruption.
If you don't believe we have no original manuscripts left, or should I say in existence during the 7th century, how do you know what was corrupted? If there is no original you have nothing to compare to, so making claims of changes is nothing more than idle speculation.
The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from.
We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.

You keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.

Yes! and I will keep asking this until you give me the answer you said you had to these three... for me, very important points. In fact that is really all the proof I wish to see. So please stop throwing straw men into the mix.

May be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!

I probably could if I thought you were really that interested..... But I see you are just trying to be controversial. What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. They may make sense to you. I suggest Isaiah would be a good one to start. :) I always like reading the Book of Isaiah.. Very interesting prophet. I do not think he has a mention in the Quran or does he?

Christians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!

This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand. You are talking of men, weak men and sinners. Are you so sure these types of men do not exists within Islam? Are all Muslim men righteous?

Although the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82

The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.

The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:

"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)

and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:

“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)

The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.

One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.

You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.

I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39

“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7

I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you so have no wish to discuss my feelings on the Quran with you. As I see it is OK for you to criticise, denigrate and abuse the Bible without censure it would not be ok for me to do the same with the Quran. Besides I would not wish to because I can respect the fact that it holds great importance to yourselves. May I just ask, and if it offends you don't have to answer.. Why are you so sure it was God speaking to Mohammed through Gabriel? How can you trust an Angel that brought a different message several hundred years earlier? I am guessing you would say you have faith that it is truth... Well.. I also have faith in Gods message as revealed in the Bible.

I have to say I am a little disappointed with your replies so far... Some interesting points on your view of the Quran. But you did not address my questions. I was not asking much, just the answer to my 3 questions, which you sort of implied you could answer and even bring proof. It would be interesting if you clarified a bit on your opening statement, like what meaning you yourself take from it. I think it does have a baring on the topic in hand.

Peace

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you.

Pandora, rest assured it does not offend me the slightest, but you keep jumping from one point to another, your aim is clear you do not want to answer, so what best than thrown a little accusation here and there. All I am saying lets finish the topic at hand then you can put all your points against the Quran, after we are done with your book. So if you so sure of your book defend the points I brought not just choose what you like to address, and jumping from one point to totally different point.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. .

What context would that be, that God need to use the Genital of donkeys as an example? Again Christians get offended if you quote from it, and they attribute that to God!

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand.

In fact it has everything that with the topic, you keep telling us Christians are guided by holy spirit, and Christians even believe those who are closer to God are chosen by God and guided by holy spirit!! If these who are spouse to be closer to God do these acts, how about the ordinary Christians who are guided by holy spirit ??

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.

Do not worry we will entertain you, and address your points from wikiislam but first answer the points I have raised. If you do not even know who wrote the book, how can you trust what in it?

So please stop avoiding the answer and address these points, I will not answer anything else until you address these points.

Here they are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.

Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.

Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions

• The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
• who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they?
• Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
• Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
• “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”

And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.

The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings.

المشاركة الأصلية بواسطة pandora مشاهدة المشاركة

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from. .

Not the word!! Clever move, the only verse that you can use to defend trinity is by fake verse.

Huria, this thread was where I thought you were going to answer my questions and provide your proof.

Who corrupted the Bible? Why did they do it? And when did this happen?

If you cannot answer these questions please just say so. This is the point you keep jumping from. So maybe it would be better if I refrain from answering all the other points you keep bringing into the mix until this.. What as see as my main point.. And on which I thought the discussion was going to be based on is dealt with. That is you answer with your proof or just say you cannot answer these questions. There's no shame to that.. I would prefer you say you don't know rather than all this beating around the bush and procrastination.

I will answer your points as truthfully and honestly as I can, but can we please just get past this one little issue.... Pretty please..

BTW.. It was Wikipedia ... Not wiki islam.. ;)

looking forward in great anticipation to your answer.

Blessings

Just re read your post.. I do hope we have not reached a stalemate already, :( honestly.. Just say if you even intend to answer my questions at some stage in the not so distant future.. And not just leading me down the garden path. And I will answer your points.

Pax

Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.
The other point is about the Holy Spirit guidance, I have made an article concerning this point:Christians always say that they believe in the Holy Spirit as the guider to the truth as Jesus said:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

As it is written about the function of the Holy Spirit:

In Christian theology Holy Spirit is believed to perform specific divine functions in the life of the Christian or the church. The action of the Holy Spirit is seen as an essential part of the bringing of the person to the Christian faith.[48] The new believer is “born again of the Spirit”.[49] The Holy Spirit enables Christian life by dwelling in the individual believers and enables them to live a righteous and faithful life.[48] The Holy Spirit also acts as comforter or Paraclete, one who intercedes, or supports or acts as an advocate, particularly in times of trial. And it acts to convince the unredeemed person both of the sinfulness of their actions, and of their moral standing as sinners before God.[50] Another faculty of the Holy Spirit is the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit both inspires the writing of the scriptures and interprets them to the Christian and/or church.[51]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_(Christianity)

So if all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the inspiration and interpretation of scriptures, why do Christians have that vast diversity among them in both aspects?

Let’s talk first about inspiration, till now there is a diversity between Catholics and Protestants about the number of books of the Bible, as the Catholics have 73 books, Protestants have 66 only and believe that others are apocrypha. Ethiopian and Coptic churches have even more books.

If we looked at the New Testament, although its canon has been settled now, but actually this wasn’t the case among early church fathers. There have been some books as epistle of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas that were accepted by many fathers, now they are not in the NT canon. On the other hand, some of the books accepted now as second epistle of Peter, book of Hebrews and book of Revelations, this link can be a nice list made telling about the disputed books:

https://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

If we are talking about Bible interpretations then we can see the diversity in faith among Christian churches, some of them are like having statues and images of saints, belief in Mary whether it is the mother of the Lord or not, immaculate conception, Holy Spirit himself who is supposed to guide Christians, Christians have diversity whether he is proceeded from the Father only or the Father and the Son, and here we go.

Even among early church fathers as well, there have been many misinterpretations and opinions that are against Christian theology although Christians consider them as orthodoxy church fathers who fought heresy, and believe they had a role in proving the NT true by quoting verses in their books. Actually these orthodoxy fathers adopted non orthodoxy opinions, and this can be shown more in my article concerning church fathers and Bible preservation:

https://jesus-is-muslim.net/church-fathers-bible/

The question now is; if the Holy Spirit actually guides Christians, Why didn’t he guide the early fathers? Either he guided them and they rejected, this means that they are no more orthodox as they reject the Holy Spirit. Or that he didn’t guide them, which negates what Christians believe in the Holy Spirit guidance. If the Holy Spirit guides all Christians, why do we see many Christian sects? Yes many Christians among different sects believe their sect is the only true one, this question may not apply to them, but the first question still applies. Other Christians who believe the diversity among sects is not something major or believe to be non-denominational may need to have an answer to this question as well as the first question.

So when Christians say that they are guided with the Holy Spirit, the answer shall be: which one?https://jesus-is-muslim.net/holy-spirit-and-guidance/