السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Brothers, I offer you to read my conversation with Kamal and Walid on the Trinity issue:

‘Trinity’or in other words TRI-UNITY is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. How is it possible? Yes, it is possible because God is NOT a human being. He is the supreme Being. Even Arab nation is one but you Kamal is an Arab and your son is an Arab and your father is also son of an Arab man. But the Arab nation is ONE. Because you all are united by common features and origin. There is no such word ‘trinity’ in the Bible but there is the concept represented by the word “Trinity”in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun “Elohim” is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word “Elohim” and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. The Hebrew word for “God,” “Elohim,” definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus’ baptism. During the baptism of Jesus the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17 ). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit! Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe. Yes, Kamal, Jesus is Kalimat-ullah and He created the universe and people! (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God! The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. But the picture is not entirely accurate because an infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

Kamal, look what Jesus said: (John 10:30)

I (Jesus) and the Father are one.”

Walid Saifaddin Ashoor said:

The question that raises itself is: You have 3 Gods, yet your Gods refer to themselves as “I” and not “We”, and then when you add the virgin Mary you now have Four Gods, yet still I and not WE. In addition, you now have 3 Gods that are HE and one God that is SHE, yet still I and not We. So Four Gods, yet still I, but what kind of I ? An I that is 3 He’s + 1 She?


– We do believe that God is ONE. He is tri-united and acting in UNITY. But why? Because God REVEALED us that on the pages of His Holy Scripture! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God! But we do not worship mother of Jesus Mary, because if we would do it, it would be considered by God as an idol worship and sin. She is just woman and NOT God!

Who is Ibn Allah?

Al Qur'an and the Holy Bible said that He is the Word of God- Kalimat-Ullah. Let's read about Him:

ﻳﻮﺣﻨﺎ 1

1 فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ، وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللهِ. وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهُ .

2 هُوَ كَانَ فِي الْبَدْءِ عِنْدَ اللهِ.

3 بِهِ تَكَوَّنَ كُلُّ شَيْءٍ، وَبِغَيْرِهِ لَمْ يَتَكَوَّنْ أَيُّ شَيْءٍ مِمَّا تَكَوَّنَ.

4 فِيهِ كَانَتِ الْحَيَاةُ. وَالْحَيَاةُ هَذِهِ كَانَتِ نُورَ النَّاسِ.

5 وَالنُّورُ يُضِيءُ فِي الظَّلاَمِ، وَالظَّلاَمُ لَمْ يُدْرِكْ النُّورَ.
14 وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ بَشَراً، وَخَيَّمَ بَيْنَنَا، وَنَحْنُ رَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ، مَجْدَ ابْنٍ وَحِيدٍ عِنْدَ الآبِ، وَهُوَ مُمْتَلِىءٌ بِالنِّعْمَةِ وَالْحَقِّ.

It means that Ibn Allah was incarnated in the human body but He lived always with His Father and He created all visible and invisible worlds.
It means He is the Creator of everything...all stars and planets and even people!

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Ibn Allah+His Father=2




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بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿112/1﴾ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿112/2﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿112/3﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ ﴿112/4﴾

عندما تتكلمي عن القرآن تكلمي بالعربية لأن لغات العالم غير قادرة على استيعاب اللغة العربية لأنها أكبر وأعظم لغات العالم .

there is a big different between

واحد :::: و :::: أحد

واحد : تعني واحد بلا ثاني

أحد : تعني واحد بلا تعدد .. فلا هو "كل" ولا هو "كلي"

so u not believe allah one

earth must contain sand + water + ...... etc to be earth
but allah never need thing to be allah

and also the Cow has three words is an example of a trinity
and also 2+1=3 is an example of a trinity

and 3x1=3 is an example of a trinity

and 4-1=3 is an example of a trinity

and also shampoo 3x1 is an example of a trinity



So , u believe that your god must be like Atom or eny thing else .... very good , congratulation

look to the upper side of this photo, inside adds-ababa church draw your three gods of christian




also see trinity in phillippines church


so u believe that the three person is one

انا لا اعلم ما المشكلة عند المسلمين بالثالوث

اولا نحن لا نؤمن بثلاثة الهة بل نحن موحدين

وانتم عندكم 99 اسما لله هل يعني انكم تعبدون 99 اله؟!؟

ونحن ببساطة نقول نقول ان الله هو واحد لا شريك له لكنه ظهر لنا بصورة يسوع وبصورة الروح القدس هل هناك اي تعقيد في ذلك

اظن انكم انتم من تعقدون هذا الموضوع ولكنه غير معقد البته مع احترامي

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Brothers, we Christians believe in ONE God. But He is tri-united.
Let me repeat: Allahu Wahid. Hua Babba Allah wa Ibn Allah wa Ruh Al Qudus.
Ibn Allah is Equal to the Father and Ruh Al Qudus!
How to understand it?
The formula should be such: 1x1x1=1
Allahu Wahid.
God created people in His Image sayds the Holy Taurat/Torah!
That’s why I am Bahira and ana wahid! But I am NOT wahid! Why? Because I am THREE ( I am body, soul and spirit). When my body will die, my soul will not die and it will be judged by Jesus. Do you know that Islam say that Jesus is the Judge?
If I am not only body, why I am going in UNITY to the shop to buy bread? Why my soul does not sleep at hope but crosses the street to get to the shop too! But even in shop my soul is with my body? Where is my soul? My souls dwells in my body! Is my soul my body? No!!!
The same way God is ONE. God the Father is equal to Ibn Allah but they Ibn Allah is God and His Father is God (like my soul and my body are separate and at the same time united).
Jesus lived in the body on earth? But was He body? No. He dwelled in the body like my soul is dwelling in my body. But who is He? He is Ibn Allah who created the universe and everything. He is Kalimat-Ullah and He dwelled in the body. Was He body? No. Hua Allah. His nature/essence is divine! He is Immortal and almighty Creator of EVERYTHING.

Why did He dwell in the body on earth? To be killed willingly and accept all our sins to His HOLY body to make us FREE of our sins/holy people. He suffered instead of us to give us eternal life. Because God said that punishment for sin is DEATH. And He was judged by His Father for millions of our crimes/sins He accepted to His body on the cross.
He is our Allah who will judge all of us soon. Be ready!



Bahira

Can't understand ?!, It's simple and logic.

Salam brothers and Muhammad,

Why Ibn Allah is equal to Allah? Because they have divine nature/essense.

Bahira

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Like I said, “If you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah”.



It does not matter whether you are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim. It does not even matter whether you are an atheist. There is one thing we all agree upon. Truth is absolute. In fact Enver Khorasanee, a Muslim in this forum, said this about absolute: “You come to an absolute by testing, testing, and testing.”Her statement corresponds with the definition of “Absolute Truth”.



Absolute truth is defined as that which matches reality or that which corresponds to its object. If all people (Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists) agree that “Absolute truth is that which matches reality,” then the Holy Trinity matches reality, because of its many realities in nature such as pure light that is made of green, red, and yellow lights or the Atom that is made of three sub-atomic particles: Protons, electrons, and neutrons.



You must show us the absolute reality of Allah in terms of his “total aloneness with and within himself” by matching him with that which is real, because absolute truth, according to all peoples, must match reality. In other words absolute truth must match that which exists in nature as a real thing.



Like I said, “If you think the Holy Trinity is hard to explain, try explaining the “Oneness of Allah” by showing illustrations. It does not exist. It is not real. It is not an absolute truth. There is no such thing as the “Total aloneness of Allah with and within himself”.



God is one — a whole. But He is a plural within Himself. Walid Ashoor explains it perfectly by sending us the following which says, “God is a family within Himself.” His explanating matches reality — a reality in nature.



Listen to Walid Ashoor, a Muslims, explained how God is a “uni-plural” which means a “One with many within”: “The English word for God here comes from the Hebrew word elohiym {el-o-heem'}. This is not a singular noun, it is a plural noun. Strong's Concordance notes that elohiym is the plural of elowahh [GOD]. This is why God says "us" later in Genesis. God refers to God in the plural. Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: … KJV. The Hebrew word elohiym is a uni-plural noun. Examples of English uni-plural nouns would be group, church or family. In one family, there is more than one member.”



You are right, Walid. You are absolute right. God is a unit-plural which means “a one with many within”. That is the one that matches reality. That is the one that matches absolute truth, because an absolute truth is that which matches reality or something that is real.



If you think the “Total aloneness of Allah with and within himself” is real, then match him with reality — something in nature that exists. It is at this point a Muslim may say, “I do not want to be a part of this discussion.”

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Hello Muslims,



Here is the challenge: Can you separate the “Oneness of Allah” from the “Oneness of earth” with and by illustrations? Can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?



Ahmed El Abd wrote: “There is no challenge in what you have sent Sazie as you still and repeatedly insisting to deal with God With a human brain and human science logics.”





That is sad, Ahmed — very sad; because had God not intended to be fully known by man, He would not have revealed Himself to man as comprehensively as He did.





Walid wrote: “I read Sazies challenge, and i think all what he is saying is that Trinity is a fact. Actually his challenge is not a challenge, simply because you can not compare the Creator with the created…”





That is also sad, Walid — very sad; because you missed the point. There are many things that are one. But they all have multiplicity or plurality within. So to say that Muhammad’s god is one does not really mean much unless you can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?



If we must replace the Holy Trinity with the “total aloneness of Allah”, then you must explain the “total alones of Allah” by giving us illustrations in the same wey we have given you illustrations of the Holy Trinity.




Again, can you show us something in nature that is a “one with and within itself” and has no multiplicity or plurality within itself?

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Responds for Wilad and Admed El Abd



Hello Wilad,



You asked: “Before God created the Universe, or even thought of creating anything at all what so ever, wasn't He alone?”



The answer is “Yes”, God was along. In fact God has always been along. But God has three “Natures” within Him: (1) The Nature of a Father — God is the Father to all creation, (2) the Nature of a Word —God creates through His Word, and (3) the Nature of a Spirit (Life) — God breathed His Spirit (Life) into things and they live, or they become alive.



No one in his right mind can deny that (1) God is the Father of creation; (2) God creates by speaking Word as in “Be” or “Let there be…” and it is done, and (3) God breathes His Spirit (Life) into dead things and they live.



Now back to your question: Before God created the universe, He had within Himself these three Natures: (1) the Nature of a Father, (2) the Nature of a Word, and (3) the Nature of a Spirit (Life). God has always had The three Natures within Himself.



However, one of God’s Natures called “Word” or “Word of God” clothed Himself in human skin and lived among men.



Hello Admed,



In respond to why Muhammad’s god reveals himself as “we”, you wrote this: “Also addressing the we in this case may describe that high ranked and Those obedient servants assisting him in doing things.”



Are you saying Muhammad’s god takes into account his obedient servants when he says of himself “we”? Do you see how your religion is screwed up? Quran 112 — none is added to him. How then does he take into account his obedient servants when he says of himself “we”?