new member
At least we can go back to the source of what was copied to check, but you cannot do this, because Uthman destroyed the source of his Quranic recompilation. No one can check to see how well he copied from Hafsah's original copy that was destroyed as well.
We had kept the thousands of differing copies, but none of them differ when it comes to the central gospel message. As I mentioned, we don't base our salvation on the torah which is a common source for both of us whether you except it or not.
خادم رسول الله
As a Muslim i 'can ' t deny that the Torah is the Word of God [ Allah ]QuoteMuslims share in the torah Allah sent sown just as much as Christians do; so what is your point?
i also think that this book was falsified by human hands
This fact is attested by the Torah itself !
Jeremiah 8 : 8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
Isaiah 29 : 16
Surely your turning of things upside down
a problem ????QuoteBut the fact there are non Arabic words some may see as a problem
not at all !
I'm not embarrassed to say :
Yes, there are Some non-arabic words in the holy Qur'an .
These words were introduced to the Arabic language before Islam and become a purely arabic one.
the proof is the presence of some non-Arabic words in the Pre-Islamic Poetry .
I think now the view is clear .
and the problem is ????QuoteI meant an equivalent English word for an Arabic one.
maybe you don't know that it is not permissible to pray with the holy Qur'an's Translations !
first, You can not deny the fact that the Bible is a real message from God .QuoteI'm not getting your point here so you will have to explain. What is the message you feel is changed here?
God tells you through the Torah ' s text you must do this and You must avoid this !
Even if you told me that Jesus him self is the message i'll respond you :
the presumed message Jesus him self was changed !
Yahweh changed his name to Jesus although the presumed message said in Malachi 3 : 6
For I am the Lord, I change not.
Are you sure ????QuoteI can't see any difference between them in regards to the message they each convey.
Mount Ebal & Mount Gerizim are different paleces in Deut 11:29
but in Deut 27 : 4 they are the same !
here is the samaritan Eng translation :
below the NIV translation :
the original writings (autographs) were lost .QuoteWhere do you think the copies came from? They had to be copied from the original autographs
they are not in the possession of any person or organization !
the manuscripts do not agree with each other.QuoteFrom the manuscripts we have today it's possible to measure the accuracy of the copies made through the ages
here is the problem !
may be you don't know that the holy Qur'an is Protected & preserved in hearts not in paper or something similar !QuoteAt least we can go back to the source of what was copied to check, but you cannot do this, because Uthman destroyed the source of his Quranic recompilation. No one can check to see how well he copied from Hafsah's original copy that was destroyed as well.
the holy book was transferred to us through narration chains -Attawator- .
i think we will not find any chirstian person who memorize the bible from Genesis to Revelation !
QuoteWe had kept the thousands of differing copies
really , i don't know why -Sometimes - Christians deny the OT ???QuoteAs I mentioned, we don't base our salvation on the torah
peace with you .
Last edited by *اسلامي عزي*; 12-07-2014 at 07:49 PM.
أنقر(ي) فضلاً أدناه :
سُبحان الذي يـُطعـِمُ ولا يُطعَم ،
منّ علينا وهدانا ، و أعطانا و آوانا ،
وكلّ بلاء حسن أبلانا ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً حمداً ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً يعدلُ حمدَ الملائكة المُسبّحين ، و الأنبياء و المُرسلين ،
الحمدُ لله حمدًا كثيراً طيّبا مُطيّبا مُباركاً فيه ، كما يُحبّ ربّنا و يرضى ،
اللهمّ لكَ الحمدُ في أرضك ، ولك الحمدُ فوق سماواتك ،
لكَ الحمدُ حتّى ترضى ، ولكَ الحمدُ إذا رضيتَ ، ولكَ الحمدُ بعد الرضى ،
اللهمّ لك الحمدُ حمداً كثيراً يملأ السماوات العلى ، يملأ الأرض و مابينهما ،
تباركتَ ربّنا وتعالَيتَ .
member
You are once again misunderstanding the meaning of Jeremiah 8:8.. Which if you had read it in contest you would have possibly conclude that it does not mean that the Torah is in any way corrupted. I replied to this point some time ago ... I repeat it again and maybe you will see what it actually means and stop ripping Bible verses out of contest and hoping they will proof some erroneous point you make. This is never going to work and you are wasting your time if you think this kind of hatchet job by yourself is going to be taken seriously. You are right to believe the Torah is from God you are wrong to believe it has been falsified by human hands.. A claim.. (At the risk of boring myself at the repetitiveness of it all) you have no proof.QuoteOriginally Posted by *اسلامي عزي*
As a Muslim i 'can ' t deny that the Torah is the Word of God [ Allah ]
i also think that this book was falsified by human hands
This fact is attested by the Torah itself !
Jeremiah 8 : 8
“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
Jeremiah 8:8: Is the Bible corrupted?
Many Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and some refer to the following verse:
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)
1. Wise men who are not so wise
"We are wise” is connected with educated people, the learned elite, who made their own explanation of the written Law of Moses instead of following the written Law of Moses in the book Deuteronomy. The wise people who are not so wise had therefore a false possession of their interpretation of the Law of Moses [1]. Jeremiah is addressing the priests and false prophets. He accused them many times that they were destroying the country with their actions (Jeremiah 2:8, 26; Jeremiah 4:9; Jeremiah 5:31; Jeremiah 8:10).
2. False interpretation of the Scriptures
"The lying pen of the scribes" refers to the writers who tried to describe the Law of Moses in international acceptable wisdom. In fact the scribes tried to change the faith in the Most High into a human tradition [2]. “Scribes” is in Hebrew Soferim, it are all those who practiced the art of writing. They are therefore, if not all, of the priests and false prophets of whom Jeremiah speaks. The interpreters of the Scriptures called scribes have, by their false comments and inferences, made the Scriptures, including the Law of Moses into a lie, so that it has ceased to represent the divine will and teaching [3].
Next verse, Jeremiah 8:9 shows that the wise men will be very ashamed.
The contrast is between the written and oral Law of Moses. The oral explanation of the Law of Moses was done by scribes and educated and intelligent men, who changed the written Law of Moses according to the book Deuteronomy. Jeremiah attacks the false wisdom [4].
3. Conclusion
After a review of the Gospel verse the conclusion can be drawn that Jeremiah 8:8 does not say that the Bible was corrupted, but that false written commentaries were distributed about the Scriptures. The prophet Jeremiah warned not to follow false teachings.
http://www.ibnzura.com/answer.php?la...ble_corrupted?
Amazing.. :) :) here you are putting words in my mouth.. Read my post.. I replied to a subject you yourself introduced by misinterpreting my post... That of non Arabic words in the Quran, I said " ****.This may be an issue for some.. ****" it is NOT an issue for me. So you don't need to clarify something I did not ask about. My post was to do with words not having English equivalents therefore a different word with the same meaning being used.. Which does not effect the message any. This is not just so of Arabic but many languages.Quotea problem ????
not at all !
I'm not embarrassed to say :
Yes, there are Some non-arabic words in the holy Qur'an .
These words were introduced to the Arabic language before Islam and become a purely arabic one.
the proof is the presence of some non-Arabic words in the Pre-Islamic Poetry .
I think now the view is clear .
No problem for me.. I did not know it's not permissible to pray with translations. That surely must put non Arabic speaking muslims at a disadvantage when it comes to Allah hearing their prayers. How can they pray in a language they do not understand? Maybe it is possible to learn prayers parrot fashion but without full understanding of the worshipper.. Does that make sense? Why would Allah restrict prayers to Arabic language?Quoteand the problem is ????
maybe you don't know that it is not permissible to pray with the holy Qur'an's Translations !
what are you saying here???? The Word of God is changed!!!!! May God forgive you. :(Quotefirst, You can not deny the fact that the Bible is a real message from God .
God tells you through the Torah ' s text you must do this and You must avoid this !
Even if you told me that Jesus him self is the message i'll respond you :
the presumed message Jesus him self was changed !
Sorry.. I don't understand your point here? YHWH is YHWH... Unchanging.QuoteYahweh changed his name to Jesus although the presumed message said in Malachi 3 : 6
For I am the Lord, I change not.
How so? Again, sorry I do not see your point.QuoteAre you sure ????
Mount Ebal & Mount Gerizim are different paleces in Deut 11:29
but in Deut 27 : 4 they are the same !
here is the samaritan Eng translation :
below the NIV translation :
What proof do you have the originals were lost rather than decayed with age and being exposed to the elements? You are missing the point.. The copies had to made from the original autographs at some point.. Therefore at that point they were NOT lost.Quotethe original writings (autographs) were lost .
they are not in the possession of any person or organization !
This is starting to get repetitive.. It's only your problem. Because evidence shows that any minor differences there may be between manuscripts DO NOT in any way change the message.Quotethe manuscripts do not agree with each other.
here is the problem !
Maybe you do not know that God wrote His law and preserved it upon our hearts before Islam came into being.. We have a covenant promise of this fact..Quotemay be you don't know that the holy Qur'an is Protected & preserved in hearts not in paper or something similar !
the holy book was transferred to us through narration chains -Attawator- .
i think we will not find any chirstian person who memorize the bible from Genesis to Revelation !
I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:33-34
lol... Have you any idea of the sheer scale and size of the Bible compared with the Quran? The Quran is smaller than the New Testament! There are Christians who memorise large parts of the Bible.. My grandmother was one such, however this was not a requirement of faith but something that happened as she read it so much and was blessed with an amazing memory... It gave her great peace and pleasure to do so. Besides memorising something is no proof of its divine nature.. If an actor memorises the works of Shakespeare does that imply Shakespeare's work is in any way divine? No of course not. So memorising something has little value as proof of anything much except that the person doing the memorising is blessed with a good memory.
What a statement ... :) what part of the Old Testament do you think we deny? How can we deny something we accept as a work of God?Quotereally , i don't know why -Sometimes - Christians deny the OT ???
peace with you .
Peace with you also
خادم رسول الله
please read this .QuoteYou are once again misunderstanding the meaning of Jeremiah 8:8
Commentary on the Bible , Adam Clarke .
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/jer008.htm
any comment ???QuoteIsaiah 29 : 16
Surely your turning of things upside down
perhaps this German preacher - Pierre Vogel a new Muslim - repeats the arabic words without understanding !!!???QuoteThat surely must put non Arabic speaking muslims at a disadvantage when it comes to Allah hearing their prayers. How can they pray in a language they do not understand? Maybe it is possible to learn prayers parrot fashion but without full understanding of the worshipper.
the link:
v=P4DfAT7eeZw
perhaps this non-arabic muslim pray in a language he do not understand !!!??
the link:
v=wBe-BoqSJtE
i ' m sorry , what you are saying does not make sense !!
because Arabic is the language of the holy Qur'an .QuoteQuoteI did not know it's not permissible to pray with translations.QuoteWhy would Allah restrict prayers to Arabic language?
all Muslims around the world will be united to pray in the same language ------> Arabic
Logic says that the Lord does not change.QuoteThe Word of God is changed!
the fact says the opposite
Jesus - the supposed God - came to the world with his foreskin and he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father without it !
please re-read carefully my post and you will understand my point.QuoteAgain, sorry I do not see your point.
Even if the differences were minor - as you sayed - this will affect the credibility of the holy scriptures !!QuoteThis is starting to get repetitive.. It's only your problem. Because evidence shows that any minor differences there may be between manuscripts DO NOT in any way change the message.
the corrupted text make him in this size :)QuoteHave you any idea of the sheer scale and size of the Bible
What do you say if i give you the irrefutable proof that the holy Quran is a real message from God.QuoteBesides memorising something is no proof of its divine nature .
Texts of murder and terrorism in the OT :Quotewhat part of the Old Testament do you think we deny?
1Samuel 15 :3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
do you accept the fact that the Lord was a baby 's and animal 's killer ???QuoteHow can we deny something we accept as a work of God?
I ask God to guide you both to Islam
Amen.
Peace.
Last edited by *اسلامي عزي*; 13-07-2014 at 07:31 PM.
أنقر(ي) فضلاً أدناه :
سُبحان الذي يـُطعـِمُ ولا يُطعَم ،
منّ علينا وهدانا ، و أعطانا و آوانا ،
وكلّ بلاء حسن أبلانا ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً حمداً ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً يعدلُ حمدَ الملائكة المُسبّحين ، و الأنبياء و المُرسلين ،
الحمدُ لله حمدًا كثيراً طيّبا مُطيّبا مُباركاً فيه ، كما يُحبّ ربّنا و يرضى ،
اللهمّ لكَ الحمدُ في أرضك ، ولك الحمدُ فوق سماواتك ،
لكَ الحمدُ حتّى ترضى ، ولكَ الحمدُ إذا رضيتَ ، ولكَ الحمدُ بعد الرضى ،
اللهمّ لك الحمدُ حمداً كثيراً يملأ السماوات العلى ، يملأ الأرض و مابينهما ،
تباركتَ ربّنا وتعالَيتَ .
member
Read it...your point is? You still do not seem to grasp the point on this.. Even your Adam Clarke article does not claim that Jeremiah 8 was saying the Torah was changed by scribes.. But that SOME scribes copied and changed parts for their OWN ends.. To suit THEMSELVES.. If you read on Jeremiah warns people away from these false "scriptures". At no point is the claim made that the ACTUAL Torah as handed down from God was changed in any way. If you still persist in this notion of yours you will have to get your answers from another source. I've said all there is to say on this point.. We are going round in circles.Quoteplease read this .
Commentary on the Bible , Adam Clarke .
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/jer008.htm
My bad I seemed to have missed this point of yours. I have to wonder why you have chosen this verse.. As I feel you do not understand its meaning.. I will try and make it simple.Quoteany comment ???
~~~ ** Isaiah 29:16. Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?**~~~
Here Isaiah uses a metaphor by comparing the nature of the potter and the nature of the clay that he uses to create a vessel... When we look at the two we find that all of the power to shape the vessel is held in the hands of the potter. It is the potter who drives the wheel and who uses his power to shape the clay... It is the potter who decides how the clay will be shaped... It is the potter who determines what the purpose of the finished clay vessel will be. In this exchange the clay itself has no power. It is simply dead material that the potter shapes into a form of his own liking. The clay has no ability to resist the potter except that it would be thrown away as rubbish if it cannot be adequately moulded by the potter.
God is the potter.. and His people are the clay. God has the same authority and power over his creation that is shown in the potter and clay metaphor. To think that a lump of clay can shape the potter would be considered ridiculous by any rational man. However.. the people to whom Isaiah prophesies are attempting to do this very thing. They are "turning things upside-down" by usurping God's plan and purpose for Israel. They are forming their own god out of their application of the Law, and rejecting God who authored it. They are shaping their god by their own reasoning, developing an understanding that is based on their own logic. Rejecting the potter, they are attempting to form themselves into a shape of their own liking... one that is quite contrary to God’s purpose for them.
If we apply this to todays world .. People have turned everything upside-down by accepting sin and rejecting godliness. People today form their own gods, their own systems of authority, based upon their own logic and worldly understanding. The world today is consistent with Isaiah’s testimony over a thousand years ago... that many reject God as the creator, preferring to believe in a godless universe as they say...He made me not... When we limit ourselves to our own counsel and ideas we accomplish nothing greater than ourselves. Rather than follow the direction of the Spirit, we will follow the direction of our own sinful choices. Just as it takes a lie to cover a lie, sin is covered by more sin when we choose to reject God’s plan and purpose. I hope you understand.
Sorry.. Can't be bothered with YouTube videos. Is it Allah's plan to turn the whole world Arabic.. ? That no matter what nationality one is or what language one speaks one has to pray in Arabic?? I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me.Quoteperhaps this German preacher - Pierre Vogel a new Muslim - repeats the arabic words without understanding !!!???
the link:
v=P4DfAT7eeZw
perhaps this non-arabic muslim pray in a language he do not understand !!!??
the link:
v=wBe-BoqSJtE
i ' m sorry , what you are saying does not make sense !!
because Arabic is the language of the holy Qur'an .
all Muslims around the world will be united to pray in the same language ------> Arabic
I cannot believe you have the audacity to post such utter nonsense!!!! You are truly scraping the bottom of the barrel.. :(QuoteLogic says that the Lord does not change.
the fact says the opposite
Jesus - the supposed God - came to the world with his foreskin and he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father without it !
I look at it again.. But really you are not as clear as you think you are in your understanding of Christianity. As your point below shows..[/QUOTE]Quoteplease re-read carefully my post and you will understand my point.
No.. It doesn't. Only for you muslims today. I doubt prophet Mohammed felt as you do about the Torah and the Gospels..QuoteEven if the differences were minor - as you sayed - this will affect the credibility of the holy scriptures !!
I can only assume this is a poor attempt at humour on your part. It's not that funny.. And doesn't warrant a serious response.Quotethe corrupted text make him in this size :)
You could try, but bear in mind any proof of this you bring has to convince a non Muslim... Not those who already accept the Quran for what it claims to be. That is to say quoting verses from the Quran and hadiths is not going to cut it.. Or opinions or so called celebs etc..QuoteWhat do you say if i give you the irrefutable proof that the holy Quran is a real message from God.
Yes.. I accept the Old Testament as it stands because it is a true account. Gods righteous wrath is real and always justified. I have no problem in accepting that God knows best. As a matter of interest how do you come to terms with the violence in the Quran? Do you have a problem with Allah commanding muslims to kill non muslims?QuoteTexts of murder and terrorism in the OT :
1Samuel 15 :3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
do you accept the fact that the Lord was a baby 's and animal 's killer ???
God guides my every waking and sleeping hour. I walk the path God has placed me upon. I don't ask God to guide you to Christianity I pray to God to open your eyes and heart and show you His truth.. In the name of His Word Jesus I ask this. Amen.QuoteI ask God to guide you both to Islam
Amen.
Peace.
peace and Gods blessings upon you.
new member
Jeremiah 8 is not talking about torah or OT Biblical corruption. It is talking about the written interpretations given to the Scripture by the lying pens of the Scribes. One should have enough common sense to know that if the Scribes were corrupting the actual Scriptures, they wouldn't have written Jeremiah 8: 8 to expose themselves. LOL, this is a laughable argument for Muslims to use and shows Christians that they are grasping as straws to make their point for Biblical corruption.
The point is no Muslim could say when, where, who or why the Bible has been corrupted. It is just they have to say that because it is the only way they appear to support the Quran. We don't need to support the Bible; it has its established authority. Moreover, we don't deny the OT Scriptures, we just don't use it to base our salvation on it. Why do the Muslims deny it based on misconceptions and false assumptions of Biblical corruption is a better question?
One can make the argument that the lying pen of the Scribes referred to in Jer. 8 are those that have put the Quran to writing which distorts the meaning on the OT & NT Scriptures. Jeremiah is prophetic in nature, and he is referring to what is happening now or the recent past. For instance, who can tell us why the Quran was put to writing? Who gave the divine mandate to do it??? Quran means recite not write!!!
Could it be that this is the lying pens of the Scribes referred to by Jeremiah? No where in the Hadiths did Islam's prophet mention the Bible was corrupted. The Quran speaks of the torah, but it doesn't say what is, was or will be corrupted and shows that Allah sent it down. If he sent it, when did it get corrupted? Did it happen before, during or after the Quran was written? As I mentioned, the torah is a common source for Jews and both Christians and Muslims. We don't base our salvation on it; we use it for reference just like Muslims do only we respect it more than them. Islam's prophet showed more respect for it than modern day Islam.
As for this thread's topic, the word of God becoming man is not possible for Muslims to understand through the eyes of Islam; so, they should avoid the topic. In fact, not even Christians can explain this mystery. It is God's awesome power, His light, His living water that surpasses human understanding. Muslims should stop trying to use an argument that is passed finding out about God. It is so miraculous and mysterious that not even the Quran shows an understanding of what Christians believe about it let alone what makes God tick!!!
Peace and blessing to all!
خادم رسول الله
Adam Clark wrote :QuoteRead it...your point is? You still do not seem to grasp the point on this.. Even your Adam Clarke article does not claim that Jeremiah 8
was saying the Torah was changed by scribes.. But that SOME scribes copied and changed parts for their OWN ends.. To suit THEMSELVES.. If you read on Jeremiah warns people away from these false "scriptures". At no point is the claim made that the ACTUAL Torah as handed down from God was changed in any way. If you still persist in this notion of yours you will have to get your answers from another source. I've said all there is to say on this point.. We are going round in circles.
" They have written falsely "
" they have done it again and again"
"They have written falsities "
maybe you think he is talking about the book of Buddhists.
use your mind !
the truth is shining !
as you see i put the links below.QuoteSorry.. Can't be bothered with YouTube videos
you can see videos when it is possible for you .
v=P4DfAT7eeZw
v=wBe-BoqSJtE
It's may appear strange to you the fact that it is not permissible to pray -Salat- with translation .QuoteIs it Allah's plan to turn the whole world Arabic.. ?
That no matter what nationality one is or what language one speaks one has to pray in Arabic??
I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me.
if Muslim want to speak with his creator - Doaa - he Can do it in any language he wants .
here is the nonsense :QuoteI cannot believe you have the audacity to post such utter nonsense!!!!
You are truly scraping the bottom of the barrel
Jesus the supposed God was circumcised !
luke 2 : 21
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus the supposed God is sitting on the right of him self !
Mark 16: 19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
QuoteQuoteEven if the differences were minor - as you sayed - this will affect the credibility of the holy scriptures !!QuoteNo.. It doesn't. Only for you muslims today
and also for Christians !
Adam Clarke commenntary :( Deut 33 )
the revelation that was revealed to the prophet MohammedQuoteI doubt prophet Mohammed felt as you do about the Torah and the Gospels..has a clear message .
the Torah and the Gospel are a real words of God unfortunately they were falsified by human hands.
The evidences approve this fact !
ok .QuoteYou could try, but bear in mind any proof of this you bring has to convince a non Muslim.
I will write soon a topic .
tell me please , do you believe in the dragon 's presence ????QuoteYes.. I accept the Old Testament as it stands because it is a true account
the answer is NO .QuoteDo you have a problem with Allah commanding muslims to kill non muslims?
Allah ordered Muslims to kill non-Muslims in 2 cases :
1--the self-defense
2 -when fighting against pagans and polytheists
Allah did not order - in any case - the killing of animals and the innocent women and babys !
Muslims do not need to support the Qura'n.QuoteThe point is no Muslim could say when, where, who or why the Bible has been corrupted. It is just they have to say that because it is the only way they appear to support the Quran.
when a murder is committed the question who ; when ; where;and how help us to know the real criminal .
in the bible's falsification case the crime is already committed and the responsible is known ---- > scribses ,
knowing the answer will not change anything !
but if you're determined here's the answer from Barth Ehrman's mouth !
@ pandora : below the link :
v=BHK5MMn_iAU
QuoteThe Quran speaks of the torah, but it doesn't say what is, was or will be corrupted
are you sure ???
the holy Qura'n do not talk about the Torah 's falsification ???
please read this :
Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
the holy Qura'n 4 : 46
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
the holy Qura'n 2 : 79
QuoteAs for this thread's topic, the word of God becoming man is not possible for Muslims to understand through the eyes of Islam; so, they should avoid the topic. In fact, not even Christians can explain this mystery. It is God's awesome power, His light, His living water that surpasses human understanding. Muslims should stop trying to use an argument that is passed finding out about God. It is so miraculous and mysterious that not even the Quran shows an understanding of what Christians believe about it let alone what makes God tick!!!
do you really think that the creator of the great universe spent 9 months in Mary 's venter and his life and nutrition depend on a simple placenta ???!!!!
after the expiry of this period Jesus came out saying :
Mom ! I'm the Lord and the savior !
use your mind please !
may God guide us to the right way .
Amen .
Last edited by *اسلامي عزي*; 14-07-2014 at 05:31 PM.
أنقر(ي) فضلاً أدناه :
سُبحان الذي يـُطعـِمُ ولا يُطعَم ،
منّ علينا وهدانا ، و أعطانا و آوانا ،
وكلّ بلاء حسن أبلانا ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً حمداً ،
الحمدُ لله حمداً يعدلُ حمدَ الملائكة المُسبّحين ، و الأنبياء و المُرسلين ،
الحمدُ لله حمدًا كثيراً طيّبا مُطيّبا مُباركاً فيه ، كما يُحبّ ربّنا و يرضى ،
اللهمّ لكَ الحمدُ في أرضك ، ولك الحمدُ فوق سماواتك ،
لكَ الحمدُ حتّى ترضى ، ولكَ الحمدُ إذا رضيتَ ، ولكَ الحمدُ بعد الرضى ،
اللهمّ لك الحمدُ حمداً كثيراً يملأ السماوات العلى ، يملأ الأرض و مابينهما ،
تباركتَ ربّنا وتعالَيتَ .
member
Quote
Adam Clark wrote :
" They have written falsely "
" they have done it again and again"
"They have written falsities "
maybe you think he is talking about the book of Buddhists.
use your mind !
the truth is shining !
are you deliberately being obtuse? It's obvious what this text means and Adam Clarke's commentary doesn't say anything other than above... Written falsely.. Yes.. The lying scribes Jeremiah warned about. Done it again and again.. Yes.. They repeatedly made their OWN copies independent of the Torah for their OWN ends.... For a price. Written falsities.. Yes... They wrote their interpretations contrary to the teachings of the Torah. How you suppose they were able to falsify the actual Torah is beyond my ken.. Please... Use your mind and think about the logistics of such an enterprise.
Quoteas you see i put the links below.
you can see videos when it is possible for you .
v=P4DfAT7eeZw
v=wBe-BoqSJtE
I do not watch YouTube videos.. By choice. I do not feel they have anything to offer of value above the written word.
Interesting.QuoteIt's may appear strange to you the fact that it is not permissible to pray -Salat- with translation .
if Muslim want to speak with his creator - Doaa - he Can do it in any language he wants .
Your nonsense is your total lack of understanding on this point. Christians do not believe Jesus is God the Father. Jesus was human, Gods Word born of the flesh, as He was fully human and as he lived under the law as a Jew.. Obviously He was under the Abrahamic Covenant and was circumcised on the eighth day. YES... Jesus does sit on the right hand of God.Quotehere is the nonsense :
Jesus the supposed God was circumcised !
luke 2 : 21
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus the supposed God is sitting on the right of him self !
Mark 16: 19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
~~~**"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." (John 5: 20-30) **~~~
Before you quote any more of Adam Clarke, take the time to read about the man... Who he was and what were his beliefs. There is nothing clear about this message revealed to prophet Mohammed.. Your evidence is not credible. If it were so.. after two thousand years of scrutiny Christianity would not today be the dominate world religion.Quoteand also for Christians !
Adam Clarke commenntary :( Deut 33 )
the revelation that was revealed to the prophet Mohammed
the Torah and the Gospel are a real words of God unfortunately they were falsified by human hands.
The evidences approve this fact !
if I'm still around... I'll read it.Quoteok .
I will write soon a topic .
Explain your meaning here please???Quotetell me please , do you believe in the dragon 's presence ????
if only more muslims listened to Allah... I guess you are just as human as the rest of us.Quotethe answer is NO .
Allah ordered Muslims to kill non-Muslims in 2 cases :
1--the self-defense
2 -when fighting against pagans and polytheists
Allah did not order - in any case - the killing of animals and the innocent women and babys !
QuoteMuslims do not need to support the Qura'n.
when a murder is committed the question who ; when ; where;and how help us to know the real criminal .
in the bible's falsification case the crime is already committed and the responsible is known ---- > scribses ,
knowing the answer will not change anything !
but if you're determined here's the answer from Barth Ehrman's mouth !
Quote
@ pandora : below the link :
v=BHK5MMn_iAU
I'm not remotely interested in anything Bart Ehrman has to say on the subject. He is entitled to his opinion and to make a living from expressing it. I do not share it. I would prefer to know why muslims believe as they do about Christians the Bible in their own words... Besides its a video.. Another reason I'm not interested.
Yes... Some scribes were guilty of falsifying manuscripts for their own gain.. The Bible is clear on this fact. However... This dos not mean the Torah itself in its original form was changed and that message remains truth and steadfast with the Jews today. You have no proof to the contrary.
Quoteare you sure ???
the holy Qura'n do not talk about the Torah 's falsification ???
please read this :Quote
Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
the holy Qura'n 4 : 46
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
the holy Qura'n 2 : 79
Exactly... Thank you for proving the point I have been trying to get you to see. The Quran does NOT claim the Torah was corrupted.... But confirms what we have been saying all this time. Read the words carefully and understand what they say.
dont be ridiculous.Quotedo you really think that the creator of the great universe spent 9 months in Mary 's venter and his life and nutrition depend on a simple placenta ???!!!!
after the expiry of this period Jesus came out saying :
Mom ! I'm the Lord and the savior !
Quoteuse your mind please !
may God guide us to the right way .
Amen .QuoteYou have no room to talk.. Telling people to use their minds when your own is rusty from lack of use.. :) I pray indeed that the God of Abraham and all the Prophets guides you all to the right way. Knock and the door shall be opened...Quote
Peace upon you.
new member
Sura: 5:46 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light... Now how can Muslims claim Jeremiah 8 was speaking to the Jews corrupting the torah when Allah said he gave it to Jesus who confirmed it coming way after Jeremiah's time? LOL
new member
YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT BART ERHMAN THINKS OF ISLAM.
If we look at thew Quran for instance the context of the of Surah 2, it does not support the view that the Quran teaches the Bible’s corruption. For instance, Surah 2:62 affirm that the content of the Bible is still God’s salvific Word: “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.“ Rather than affirm the Bible’s corruption, the rest of the context of Surah 2 affirms the contrary, that the Bible is still God’s Word.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks