Nearly all Christians believe that Jesus was and is God. That is what the institutional
church has always taught. Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief.
Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or
the like. Moreover, the New Testament (NT) gospels have no statement by Jesus in which
he identifies himself as God. In fact, there are many Bible verses which indicate that
Jesus cannot be God by declaring that only the Father is God
First, and foremost, is one of Jesus’ sayings recorded only in the Gospel of John. The
setting is the Last Supper, right before he was arrested and crucified. He prayed for his
disciples, saying, “Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3). So, Jesus tells the Father that he
is “the only true God” and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these
points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.
Moreover, Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier,
he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44).
Most of what you said is true, but it is not all true especially you conclusion which is all wrong. Every Christian will admit that Jesus is not the father God, and no where are there many Bible verses which indicate that Jesus cannot be divine by declaring that only the Father is God. What you fail to understand is Christians believe there is only one God, and that Jesus is His word.
It is written that God exalts His word above all His name. There is no evidence that Muhammad even knew the name of God in the Quran or anywhere. Christians don't believe Jesus is God the father, but we all according to Scripture believe that Jesus is all that God is, but not all there is to God. This is a great mystery, and it is not like anything on earth.
Even God calls Jesus His son, and He even refers to Jesus like this: but to the son He says "But thou OH God...." Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my God." You ignored to mention that Jesus did and said things that only God could do and say such as "Your sins are forgiven... I and the father are one..." Jesus accepted worship that only belongs to God.
Christians are not obtuse my friend. They don't need to hear Jesus say "BTW, I am God so believe me when I say it" We know who Jesus is. To know Him is to have eternal life. He said, "No man comes to God except through me" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" did you think Jesus was joking?
IHMO, it sounds like He is talking about people that say things like you are saying. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am." If I meditate on these words, I think of when Moses asked God: "Who shall I say sent me?" God responded, "I am that I am." Jesus said, "I am before Abraham" so how can you just blow off all those verses I mentioned and think that one day you will stand before a terrible God and have to explain why you ignored these verses. Personally, I would never trade shoes with you. There are plenty of other Scriptures to show that Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things and that He is not honored as a prophet unless he is honored above all prophets! To true Christians Jesus is not a messenger; He is the Message!
Do you know that we as muslims believe that there is one God who has no son and who neither gave birth nor was born and Jesus is his word, messenger and servant ?
We as muslims believe that prophet Jesus Pbuh is the word of God but that does not mean to us that he is God or the son of God
We beleve that God who you name the Father is the God of Jesus Pbuh
Whether you believe this or not, this is what Jesus Pbuh himself believed, he used to call the father ( my God)
John 20 17 Jesus said unto her, “Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
This is exactly what we believe about Jesus Pbuh, we believe that the father is his God
There are several other verses in the new testament where the Father was described as the God of Jesus Pbuh
You claimed that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship this is completely wrong, actually Jesus Pbuh himself worshipped God
Jesus Pbuh used to fall on the ground while praying to show his poverty to God and that he is a servant of God exactly as we muslims do in our prayers
Mark 14
35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee. Take away this cup from Me; nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.” 37 And He came back and found them sleeping, and said unto Peter, “Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest thou not watch one hour? 38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
39 And again He went away and prayed and spoke the same words.
You claim that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship, you think this is true because the english translations of the Bible say that people worshipped Jesus. The word that is translated to worship is προσκυνεο
which may just mean kneel or bow
This is the meaning of this word from the Netbible website :
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[TD="class: content"]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons[/TD]
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( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Do you know that we as muslims believe that there is one God who has no son and who neither gave birth nor was born and Jesus is his word, messenger and servant ?]
Yes Arahman, I know what Islam teaches, but when Islam calls Jesus the word of God which we do also; we are able to deduct that the word of God is eternal and uncreated. You are just looking at the physical body of Jesus and not understanding that He preexisted as God's word, and it is written God exalts His word above all His name. You go through great pains to make Jesus look like just an ordinary prophet. "All things are mine" Jesus said the father had given Him all; therefore, he owns all people groups and nations. That means He owns all prophets before and after Him. You just don't know who Jesus is and Satan doesn't want you to know, because that means salvation for your soul that you don't have now. As Jesus said: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" How is it possible that Muslims don't understand Jesus explicit words? Jesus is the word God used to create all things. That is why it is written "All thing were made by Him for Him and through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made."
Quote
Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
We as muslims believe that prophet Jesus Pbuh is the word of God but that does not mean to us that he is God or the son of God
We beleve that God who you name the Father is the God of Jesus Pbuh
Whether you believe this or not, this is what Jesus Pbuh himself believed, he used to call the father ( my God)
John 20 17 Jesus said unto her, “Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
This is exactly what we believe about Jesus Pbuh, we believe that the father is his God]
Yes, He called God His father and God; so, if He called God is father, why do you say He is not His son? You go through such pains to justify what you want to believe to the point of using things you don't even believe in. That is so sad; I could never used something I don't believe to justify what I want to believe. Why don't you quote that the father called Jesus His son and He calls Him God "But thou Oh God is a Throne Forever...?" Yes, God the father calls Jesus God and commands that He be honored the same has Himself; otherwise, you are not honoring the God you think you love and honor. Why do you want to convince me to not honor the one and only true God and put me in a religion that has uncertainty for my eternal destination? I could never model you and use things I don't believe in the Bible to support my religion such as you are doing. That is so sad friend and I feel so bad for you.
I hope and pray you come to the knowledge of truth my friend in Jesus name.
Quote
Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
There are several other verses in the new testament where the Father was described as the God of Jesus Pbuh
You claimed that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship this is completely wrong, actually Jesus Pbuh himself worshipped God
Jesus Pbuh used to fall on the ground while praying to show his poverty to God and that he is a servant of God exactly as we muslims do in our prayers
Mark 14
Quote
Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee. Take away this cup from Me; nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.” 37 And He came back and found them sleeping, and said unto Peter, “Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest thou not watch one hour? 38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
39 And again He went away and prayed and spoke the same words.
You claim that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship, you think this is true because the english translations of the Bible say that people worshipped Jesus. The word that is translated to worship is
which may just mean kneel or bow
This is the meaning of this word from the Netbible website :
[TR]
[TD="class: content"]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons[/TD]
[/TR]
Again I see you going through great pain and jumping through all kinds of loops and hoops to take away from Jesus the reward of His suffering. Why do you bring up Jesus falling on His face to pray God's spares Him from the cross when you don't even believe He died on the cross? Why do you constantly bring scenarios to support Islam when you don't even believe they are true. This is how deep your deception appears to be. I see you deceiving yourself and Allah using deception and admitting he is the best of deceivers and proving he is by making something appear to be true that was not true. What kind of plan do you call that? Making things appear to be what they are is not the work of my God and Savior; it is the work of my adversary who goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour. Jesus said, he is the only way to God, but you seek another way. I wish I could say good luck and mean it but luck will do you NO good.
This is how deep your deception appears to be. I see you deceiving yourself and Allah using deception and admitting he is the best of deceivers and proving he is by making something appear to be true that was not true. What kind of plan do you call that? Making things appear to be what they are is not the work of my God and Savior; it is the work of my adversary who goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour.
1- What does the Glorious Quran Say?Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran:
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[TD="width: 39%, bgcolor: #D5F1FF"]Noble Verse(s) 8:30[/TD]
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[TD="width: 39%, bgcolor: #EAF4FF"]Pickthall:[008:030] And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters. Arabic (Read from right to left. Also, all png image files: [1] [2]):
8:30 واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين[/TD]
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There are few important points to notice here: 1- The disbelievers and the evil ones plotted against Islam. 2- Allah Almighty plotted on the disbelievers' plots, and turned their plots on their heads. 3- Allah Almighty is the best of plotters. So does this mean that Allah Almighty is the Best or Greatest of all deceivers? The answer is a qualified yes. Allah Almighty does not plot against Good. Allah Almighty plots only against evil. Therefore, Allah Almighty plots against and deceives the enemies of Allah Almighty. This is further supported in the following Noble Verses: "We have always sent messengers who were proficient in the language of their people, so they could explain the matter clearly. Allah guides or leads astray whomever He pleases. He is the most Powerful, the Wisest! (The Noble Quran, 14:4)" "Had Allah wished, He would have created you all as a single nation. But He guides or leads astray whomever He pleases. And you would very definitely be interrogated regarding everything you used to do! (The Noble Quran, 16:93)" So the statement that the Islam haters usually utter, "the GOD of Islam is the greatest of all deceivers", is false, because Allah Almighty doesn't deceive the Good Believers. Allah Almighty only deceives the enemies of Allah Almighty:
If Allah Almighty also plots against good, then the Islam haters' statement would be true.
But since Allah Almighty does not plot against Good, then the Islam haters' general statement is false. It is only true on them, and not on what is Good.
So yes indeed. Allah Almighty is the Best one to deceive and misguide the doomed-to-Hell disbelievers.
This is similar to describing God as Jealous in both the Bible and Islam
Deutronomy 6:15 New International Version for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
Describing someone as jealous may be a bad description, but when we describe God as jealous, this description if understood in the proper way is not a bad description
Regarding the crucifiction of Jesus Pbuh, yes we believe that God deceived those who wanted to crucify him
The jews want to kill one of the messengers and prophets of God, one of his followers deceived him and told the jews and romans about his place
What a lot of muslims believe - and this may be true however we are not sure that this is 100% true - is that God made Judah look like Jesus Pbuh and the romans took him and crucified him and in this way Jesus Pbuh was saved
What's the problem in this?
Judah betrayed Jesus Pbuh and tried to help his enemies crucify him, God saved his messenger Jesus Pbuh and caused the one who betrayed him to be crucified
what's your objection ?
Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 05-06-2014 at 09:04 AM.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
This is similar to describing God as Jealous in both the Bible and Islam
Deutronomy 6:15 New International Version for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
Describing someone as jealous may be a bad description, but when we describe God as jealous, this description if understood in the proper way is not a bad description
Regarding the crucifiction of Jesus Pbuh, yes we believe that God deceived those who wanted to crucify him
The jews want to kill one of the messengers and prophets of God, one of his followers deceived him and told the jews and romans about his place
What a lot of muslims believe - and this may be true however we are not sure that this is 100% true - is that God made Judah look like Jesus Pbuh and the romans took him and crucified him and in this way Jesus Pbuh was saved
What's the problem in this?
Judah betrayed Jesus Pbuh and tried to help his enemies crucify him, God saved his messenger Jesus Pbuh and caused the one who betrayed him to be crucified
what's your objection ?
With all due respect I beg your leave to but in on this point.. But.. I see your post shows IMHO a lack of understanding of deception and the dangers behind it.
It was God himself who used the term "jealous" to describe an aspect of his personality in this instance, so I'm not sure why the term would be a matter of criticism unless a person is not aware of the fact that there is actually a "righteous" form of jealousy. The Scriptures speak of 2 types of jealousy (both a positive and a negative one). The negative or "unrighteous" type of jealousy (which humans tend to display the most) is based on selfishness, greed, ambition, covetousness, and a desire to gain possession or domination of something which legally or rightfully belongs to someone else. Those negative qualities are not what God is referring to when he describes himself as being jealous. I don't know how you view "jealously" in relation to Allah, but for sure the Bible inference is not negative.
However, the terms deceiving or plotting does have more negative implications than positive. Neither of which I can attribute to a Holy God.
To deceive is deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.
synonyms: swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, hoodwink, hoax, dupe, take in, mislead, delude, fool, outwit, misguide, lead on, inveigle, seduce, ensnare, entrap, beguile, double-cross.
To plot .. secretly make plans to carry out (an illegal or harmful action).
synonyms: plan, scheme, arrange, organize, lay, hatch, concoct, devise, frame, think up, dream up, cook up, brew, conceive,
conspire, scheme, participate in a conspiracy, intrigue, collude, connive,
This "scheme" of Allah to make someone appear to have died in the place of Jesus makes no sense. If we are led to believe throughout scripture and by the words of Jesus Himself that He was sent to die for us. Then in fact He does not die.. But someone else does. Who is deceived? We are.. His followers. Why would Jesus spend His mission teaching one thing then betray us all at the end.. Thus leading us astray. The act of crucifixion and a death was not the only requirement.. It had to be the death Jesus as a sinless being.. Not just some random guy that may have been Judas or may have been some other.. A scenario you have no proof of and is nothing but conjecture. Besides the Jews did not simply want to kill Jesus because He was another prophet or messenger of God.. They wished Him dead because they did not believe He was who He said He was.. The Messiah. The charged Him with blasphemy for claiming to be God. His death meant nothing to them because to them he was a false Messiah.. So they were not deceived. The Romans who carried out the sentence? They only knew of Jesus as a condemned man who was to be executed according to their laws.. So they were not deceived. The only people who would have been deceived by this cruel deception would have been the followers of Jesus Christ. Were we deceived? No.. Because we know that Jesus is who He claims to be, He did die for us and He rose again conquering death and lives still so we can also enjoy life everlasting.
So... The only people truly deceived are those who do not believe in Jesus and do not accept Him as their redeemer. But that deception is not from God.
My objection to your scenario is it does not make sense. There is no sense in Islam accepting the virgin birth of Jesus, claiming to respect Jesus as a Prophet confirming the belief He is the Messiah whilst denying the crucifixion ever happened. For an event holding such a monumental position in Christianity as the crucifixion I would have expected, had God made and error thereby leading His people through deception into false belief then God would have been clearer in the Quran on this matter and not leave any ifs, buts or maybes.. I do not mean that to sound disrespectful, but if I am to be honest then that is my considered opinion.
Anyway, I prefer that we chat in one page only not in different pages
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
I responded to your trinity thread after all the writing I did it got lost because you closed the thread; so here is the short to it: I think you are confusing being emotional which are knee jerk responses with emotions which is God given and not necessarily a bad thing. Having emotion doesn't mean you don't use your heart or brain. My responses are carefully deliberated on, articulate and concise. No one has been able to gainsay my posts. So just why would I want to be a slave to the god of Islam when I can be free and a child of the Most high God? Why would I want the uncertainity of my eternal destiny islam has to offer as Abu Bakr points out in the lack of trust he had in the Makr of Allah? I trust him less than that. I see that Muslims seem to be insecure in their faith as well. It shows in the fact that my post have to be screened for approval after all my posting. This tells me that Muslims are not rooted and grounded in their faith like true Christians are.
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Originally Posted by محبة الرحمن
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