Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

[محمد سني 1989]

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http://bibleapps.com/commentaries/isaiah/21-7.htm

21:1-10 Babylon was a flat country, abundantly watered. The destruction of Babylon, so often prophesied of by Isaiah, was typical of the destruction of the great foe of the New Testament church, foretold in the Revelation. To the poor oppressed captives it would be welcome news; to the proud oppressors it would be grievous. Let this check vain mirth and sensual pleasures, that we know not in what heaviness the mirth may end. Here is the alarm given to Babylon, when forced by Cyrus. An ass and a camel seem to be the symbols of the Medes and Persians. Babylon's idols shall be so far from protecting her, that they shall be broken down. True believers are the corn of God's floor; hypocrites are but as chaff and straw, with which the wheat is now mixed, but from which it shall be separated. The corn of God's floor must expect to be threshed by afflictions and persecutions. God's Israel of old was afflicted. Even then God owns it is his still. In all events concerning the church, past, present, and to come, we must look to God, who has power to do any thing for his church, and grace to do every thing that is for her good.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen - This passage is very obscure from the ambiguity of the word rekeb - 'chariot.' Gesenius contends that it should be rendered 'cavalry,' and that it refers to cavalry two abreast hastening to the destruction of the city. The word rekeb denotes properly a chariot or wagon Judges 5:28; a collection of wagons 2 Chronicles 1:14; 2 Chronicles 8:6; 2 Chronicles 9:25; and sometimes refers to the "horses or men" attached to a chariot. 'David houghed all the chariots' 2 Samuel 8:4; that is, all the "horses" belonging to them. 'David killed of the Syrians seven hundred chariots' 2 Samuel 10:18; that is, all "the men" belonging to seven hundred chariots. According to the present Masoretic pointing, the word rekeb does not mean, perhaps, anything else than a chariot strictly, but other forms of the word with the same letters denote "riders or cavalry." Thus, the word rakab denotes a horseman 2 Kings 9:17; a charioteer or driver of a chariot 1 Kings 22:34; Jeremiah 51:21. The verb rabab means "to ride," and is usually applied to riding on the backs of horses or camels; and the sense here is, that the watchman saw "a riding," or persons riding two abreast; that is, "cavalry," or men borne on horses, and camels, and asses, and hastening to attack the city.
With a couple of horsemen - The word 'couple' ( tsemed) means properly a "yoke or pair;" and it means here that the cavalry was seen "in pairs, that is," two abreast.

A chariot of asses - Or rather, as above, "a riding" on donkeys - an approach of men in this manner to battle. Asses were formerly used in war where horses could not be procured. Thus Strabo (xv. 2, 14) says of the inhabitants of Caramania, 'Many use donkeys for war in the want of horses.' And Herodotus (iv. 129) says expressly that Darius Hystaspes employed donkeys in a battle with the Scythians.

And a chariot of camels - A "riding" on camels. Camels also were used in war, perhaps usually to carry the baggage (see Diod. ii. 54; iii. 44; Livy, xxxvii. 40; Strabo, xvi. 3). They are used for all purposes of burden in the East, and particularly in Arabia.

Your explanation is a copy and paste without reading it , first the explanation of rabbi shimon :

in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah).

From what you said :

And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen - This passage is very obscure from the ambiguity of the word רכב rekeb - 'chariot

So it is obscure???

Then the writer goes on and on about the meaning of the word charriot which is either , horses , men or calvary. Then the writer concludes the meaning :

The verb רבב râbab means "to ride," and is usually applied to riding on the backs of horses or camels; and the sense here is, that the watchman saw "a riding," or persons riding two abreast; that is, "cavalry," or men borne on horses, and camels, and asses, and hastening to attack the city.

So this goes and agrees with what the rabbi says :

Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels


Then the commentator ends with an important part:

And a chariot of camels - A "riding" on camels. Camels also were used in war, perhaps usually to carry the baggage (see Diod. ii. 54; iii. 44; Livy, xxxvii. 40; Strabo, xvi. 3). They are used for all purposes of burden in the East, and particularly in Arabia

Again Arabia where the Ishmaelite Arabs lived so all what you copied and pasted really agrees with what I said .

[pandora]

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Actually the fact that you did not answer shows me and the readers that either you do not have an answer !!! that is the basic reality of the situation Pandora

Yet even though I answered all questions addressed to me I am now being accused of not answering in the same response where you yourself admitted to ignoring my responses . What an Irony ????!!!!

Sorry, but I really think I have given you answers both here and other threads where you have demanded them of me... And my friend.. You have NOT answered all my questions. You have been very selective with your answers. To be honest, I'm not prepared to play these games of yours.. It's bad enough being restricted to only three threads at a time for reasons I do not understand. That you continue to waste time going over the same points.. Even having been given answers (which I have done to the best of my ability) you are still prevaricating!! I will leave it to readers to make up their minds... I find my face is increasingly not bothered.

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None and I repeat none of these passages actually states the name moriah

All these mentions a place without the name and christians and Jews just assumed were Moriah based on their understanding

Based on their understanding, their understanding of the scriptures, which has to be based on something. Which I would take as an authority over your own...

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So the land was still mentioned once in genesis without location with a contradiction

unfortunatlly the samaritans differ on the location , since they do not believe in the first and second books of chronicles so they claim that the actual mountain is the mountain Jerzeem not the current location of the Mosque.

just read Genesis in its entirety and see what conclusion it leads you to... Or Kings..or Ezra or any of the others mentioned in the article. As to what the Samaritans may have believed then that's all fine.. As a Christian I have faith in the Bible and the accounts within. As it's primarily the Bible is what you have issue with surely that should be of primary consideration.

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As for your claim that blessed does not mean chosen , I have already addressed this and shown otherwise in the response which you said was unsatisfactory !!! (this shows me that you did not actually read my response )

AS for the only son again , the text said take your only son not your only chosen son !!!! the text is clear here .


And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.


Genesis 22: 2


This was before the test before god even revealed that his son was chosen so how could god say take your only chosen son !!!!! especially that Abraham thought at that time that he would be sacrificing his son !!! It does not make anysense : take your only chosen son to sacrifice as a sign of him being chosen !!!!


This interpritation is twisted in order to explain this clear contradiction

Yes your response on this matter I found unsatisfactory. Your pondering on what God should or should not have said is immaterial.. We have to deal with what we have when God was giving Abraham the sign of the covenant, namely circumcision, Abraham asked God that the covenant would be placed on Ishmael.

Genesis 17:17-18 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

Abraham knows the difficulty that it will be for he and Sarah to have a child... Their age was against them. This is what brought about his impatience in the first place, leading him to sleep with Hagar, which gave him Ishmael. Remember that God had told Abraham that he would be blessed and a father of many nations. Abraham got impatient, and took matters into his own hands.


The covenantal blessings are not to be upon Ishmael, but Isaac, whom Sarah will give birth to. When Abraham asks God to allow Ishmael to be the one in which those covenantal blessings flow, God rejects his request.

Genesis 17:19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.”


God says no. He will not have His chosen people come from a union that was conceived in sin. He wants His line to come from those He has chosen. The people of God are always His work, not man’s work. Therefore He tells Abraham that it will be through Sarah that the covenantal blessings will come...It is through this line that the Messiah will come and redeem the chosen throughout the world. God will not have fallen man adding to His plan of redemption. Even though Abraham was a friend of God, it is God’s work that brings about this redemption and Isaac. God is showing that when it comes to His will and plan, He can work through a couple that are far past the age of childbearing.

Genesis 18:11-12 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”


The text is telling us that Sarah no longer had the ability to have children. A miracle will have to be performed in order for her to have children. God will have to take something that is dead and make it alive. He will have to bring her womb to life again for her to have a child. God is the One that gave Sarah and Abraham the ability to have Isaac. Again, it is His plan that will be carried out in His way, not Abraham’s supplemental plan. God has a purpose and a plan for His chosen at all stages, and no, mankind cannot thwart that plan... No matter what you think to the contrary.


As for Ismael, he WILL be blessed. God tells Abraham this....

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

He is blessed because he is Abraham’s son. God does that as a favor to Abraham. The man will grow and twelve princes will come from him, and he will be a great nation. In this instance, given God has already been clear in His rejection of Ishmael as the child of the covenantal promise ... A great nation.. Could imply greatness in numbers. You have to think what constitutes greatness and is it what you see happening in Islamic lands today..


Genesis 17:21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”


Also consider... that when God initially tells Abraham of the coming child, He says that Sarah will be the mother of kings and many nations.

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

Whereas Ismael will father twelve princes and one nation, Sarah will be the mother of many nations and many kings, showing covenantal supremacy in God’s election of them. So...While Ishmael is blessed, he is NOT of the chosen line of God. It is through the line of Isaac that the covenant blessings pass. This is what God’s word says and we need to rest upon it. The Samaritans were rejected because of their revisionist history, As I must reject your revisionist ideas of what you feel God should have said to make things clearer for yourself. It's clear... It's there... The fault is not with The Lord but within yourself because you don't choose to understand it. It has to come down to choice.. Because really it is not difficult to understand.

Also it shows us that those outside of covenantal blessings are not completely ignored by God. He may not extend His eternal blessings to them by bringing them into the covenant, but He still blesses them in life. Ishmael was blessed by God. He had his good things in life. That's not to be sniffed at.

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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Sorry, but I really think I have given you answers both here and other threads where you have demanded them of me... And my friend.. You have NOT answered all my questions. You have been very selective with your answers. To be honest, I'm not prepared to play these games of yours.. It's bad enough being restricted to only three threads at a time for reasons I do not understand. That you continue to waste time going over the same points.. Even having been given answers (which I have done to the best of my ability) you are still prevaricating!! I will leave it to readers to make up their minds... I find my face is increasingly not bothered.

I have Already addressed all your questions

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Based on their understanding, their understanding of the scriptures, which has to be based on something. Which I would take as an authority over your own...

What something!!!! and what about the different understanding of this passage such as the understanding of the Samaritans !!! Is their understanding based on something!!!!

This is speculation there is no proof here

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just read Genesis in its entirety and see what conclusion it leads you to... Or Kings..or Ezra or any of the others mentioned in the article. As to what the Samaritans may have believed then that's all fine.. As a Christian I have faith in the Bible and the accounts within. As it's primarily the Bible is what you have issue with surely that should be of primary consideration.

I did so as the Samaritans who also belief in Genisis and the first five books which composes the Torah and still reach to the conclusion that Moriah is not in the temple mount rather it is mountain Jerzeem .

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Yes your response on this matter I found unsatisfactory. Your pondering on what God should or should not have said is immaterial.. We have to deal with what we have when God was giving Abraham the sign of the covenant, namely circumcision, Abraham asked God that the covenant would be placed on Ishmael.

Not on what god said rather what is written in the text

Second this was not the section I was talking about which you did not answer rather it was what you quoted in response number 38

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First god blessed Abraham and told him he would be a great nation :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.

And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing

. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

So Abraham's blessing and greatness comes from his decendents by blessing Abraham and blessing themselves (this is what muslims say five times a day during prayer : the prayer goes like this God bless Muhammed and his family as you have blessed Abraham and his family .....)

So a great nation blesses Abaraham , also they :

6 Observe them carefully, for thus will

you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations

, who will hear of all these statutes and say,

'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god and glorifies Abraham and blesses him which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis


Going to see how this applies to Ishmael from what you said :

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

Also :

Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20 RSV).

It is not me who is nitpicking from the bible , you need to read the passage carefully and compare it together

The same phrase used by god to Abraham is used to Ishmael .

However I will still address what you said here

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Genesis 17:17-18 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

Abraham knows the difficulty that it will be for he and Sarah to have a child... Their age was against them. This is what brought about his impatience in the first place, leading him to sleep with Hagar, which gave him Ishmael. Remember that God had told Abraham that he would be blessed and a father of many nations. Abraham got impatient, and took matters into his own hands.

Yes we believe the miracle birth of Isaac but what has this to do with anything , god blessed both and brought both to this world to bring prophets from their dicendents and to bring their followers too from their linage. Ishmael is still Abraham's son and he was blessed. This still does not show any superiority remember Moses and Aron were not Joseph's decendents.

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The covenantal blessings are not to be upon Ishmael, but Isaac, whom Sarah will give birth to. When Abraham asks God to allow Ishmael to be the one in which those covenantal blessings flow, God rejects his request.

Genesis 17:19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.”

You have to read it within the whole context :

15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16"I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"18And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"19But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him 20"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.…

The context of the passage clearly shows god telling Abraham I have heard you meaning heard your prayer and accepted , So god blessed him and made him a great nation and as I described a great nation before from the bible is one which has a law and worships god and blesses Abraham. This same term god used on Abraham before :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing
. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

Another discription falls into Ishmael too:

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

This is within the same meaning as above God hears Abraham's request with Ishmael because he is simply the offspring of Abraham


Genesis 18:11-12 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

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The text is telling us that Sarah no longer had the ability to have children. A miracle will have to be performed in order for her to have children. God will have to take something that is dead and make it alive. He will have to bring her womb to life again for her to have a child. God is the One that gave Sarah and Abraham the ability to have Isaac. Again, it is His plan that will be carried out in His way, not Abraham’s supplemental plan. God has a purpose and a plan for His chosen at all stages, and no, mankind cannot thwart that plan... No matter what you think to the contrary.

The text never said anything about a plan , this is your personal interpritation. As I have showed above God still according to the biblical writers still told that he has heard Abraham

However there is a very big important point which I need to clarify here :

The original King James bible DOES NOT have the word "No" in it the text is simply :

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him (GENESIS 17:19)


What is really ironic too is that in the new international version you got the word "Yes" instead of "No"

Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.GENESIS 17:19
New International version

You could check for your self :
http://biblehub.com/genesis/17-19.htm

So your whole argument which was based on No cannot have an accurate basis

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Genesis 17:21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

Continue the passage :
22When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.23Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him 24Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.26In the very same day Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his sonGenesis 17: 22-26

Genesis 17 which talks about the covenant of circumcission ends here

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Also consider... that when God initially tells Abraham of the coming child, He says that Sarah will be the mother of kings and many nations.

Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

Whereas Ismael will father twelve princes and one nation, Sarah will be the mother of many nations and many kings, showing covenantal supremacy in God’s election of them. So...While Ishmael is blessed, he is NOT of the chosen line of God. It is through the line of Isaac that the covenant blessings pass. This is what God’s word says and we need to rest upon it. The Samaritans were rejected because of their revisionist history, As I must reject your revisionist ideas of what you feel God should have said to make things clearer for yourself. It's clear... It's there... The fault is not with The Lord but within yourself because you don't choose to understand it. It has to come down to choice.. Because really it is not difficult to understand.

Again you are claming that my objection is to god rather it is to the writers of the bible. AS I said before we believe your scripture is corrupted so when I say that I am objecting somehow it is not on God , God forbid rather on the Jewish writers of the bible . such establishment of covenant only to Isaac seems very doubtfull based on the fact that Abraham also cried for his son Ishmael and that god responded by saying he has heard it and he has blessed his son Ishmael and he will have a great nation plus the idea and the contradiction still places itself when it is stated take your ONLY SON , this no matter what explanation is provided does not remove the contradiction for God did not say take your only son whom I have established the covenant with!!!

As for the number of nations well God said :
16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

So god said kings of people , meaning who rule . This refers to actual kings ;

and she shall be a mother of nations; of the twelve tribes of Israel; of the two nations of Israel and Judah:

kings of people shall be of her; as David, Solomon, and others, and especially the King Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Great nation supresedes many nations since there were no mention of greatness one can say so !!!


peace

[pandora]

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As for Isaiah 21 it concerns three prophecies:


1. The burdon of the desert of the sea
2. The burdon on Durah
3. The burdon on Arabia


These prophecies describe different events about the area , one is the fall of Babylon , second the coming of the messiah as shown by the riders of charriots of asses and the coming of the arabian prophet as the riders of Camels


What you mentioned about 21:7 is part of the burdon of the desert of the sea which describe the fall of babylon

Honestly it does not.. It is what it claims to be an account of the fall of Babylon. Jesus as Messiah has no connection with a chariot of asses.. Does it not say chariots of camels? Whereas Prophet Mohammed most certainly rode a camel is there evidence he ever rode a chariot pulled by camels? Or in this instance the use of metaphors may be acceptable to you.

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To answer your final question :


This is an islamic - christian debate blogg , everybody presents and debates to prove a point. You and burninglight are debating to prove your point of christianity and we muslims are debating to prove our point , thats how debate bloggs work !!!! why do you think we are participating then !!!!

no need to be uppity... I was simply curious as to why you feel to seek to destroy another's faith. Personally, it's not important to me weather you accept or reject what I say.. More often rejection is the way I see.. :) I simply seek to dispel some misconceptions some muslims have about Christians and Christianity and the Bible. I've learnt quite a lot during my time here, and I have to say it was a cause of some personal sadness to be discriminated against with this new rule about limiting the number of posts we can contribute to. I don't see why it's necessary and it's certainly not conducive to fostering any mutual understanding. Still... As the saying goes your forum ..your rules.. I expect the reasons behind it are clear to muslims. Sad though .. Very sad.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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Honestly it does not.. It is what it claims to be an account of the fall of Babylon. Jesus as Messiah has no connection with a chariot of asses.. Does it not say chariots of camels? Whereas Prophet Mohammed most certainly rode a camel is there evidence he ever rode a chariot pulled by camels? Or in this instance the use of metaphors may be acceptable to you.

First the jews understood it much differently than you do :

the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310]

Rabbi Shimon bin Yohai is one of the fundimental and honered rabbis in the maintsream Jusaism (Not just The kabbala)

As for Chariots :

A chariot with a couple of horsemen; rather, a troop of horsemen riding two and two. This is exactly how a cavalry force was ordinarily represented by the Assyrians. Chariots are not intended either here or in ver. 9. They were not employed by the Persians until a late period of their history (see 'Ancient Monarchies,' vol. 4. pp. 113, 122). A chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; rather, men mounted on asses and on camels. It is well known that both animals were employed by the Persians in their expeditions to carry the baggage (Herod., 1:80; 4:129; Xen., 'Cyrop.,' 7:1, etc.). But neither animal was ever attached to a chariot.

Source : pulpit commentary

Also see:

And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen - This passage is very obscure from the ambiguity of the word רכב rekeb - 'chariot.' Gesenius contends that it should be rendered 'cavalry,' and that it refers to cavalry two abreast hastening to the destruction of the city. The word רכב rekeb denotes properly a chariot or wagon Judges 5:28; a collection of wagons 2 Chronicles 1:14; 2 Chronicles 8:6; 2 Chronicles 9:25; and sometimes refers to the "horses or men" attached to a chariot. 'David houghed all the chariots' 2 Samuel 8:4; that is, all the "horses" belonging to them. 'David killed of the Syrians seven hundred chariots' 2 Samuel 10:18; that is, all "the men" belonging to seven hundred chariots. According to the present Masoretic pointing, the word רכב rekeb does not mean, perhaps, anything else than a chariot strictly, but other forms of the word with the same letters denote "riders or cavalry." Thus, the word רכב rakâb denotes a horseman 2 Kings 9:17; a charioteer or driver of a chariot 1 Kings 22:34; Jeremiah 51:21. The verb רבב râbab means "to ride," and is usually applied to riding on the backs of horses or camels; and the sense here is, that the watchman saw "a riding," or persons riding two abreast; that is, "cavalry," or men borne on horses, and camels, and asses, and hastening to attack the city.
With a couple of horsemen - The word 'couple' (צמד tsemed) means properly a "yoke or pair;" and it means here that the cavalry was seen "in pairs, that is," two abreast.
A chariot of asses - Or rather, as above, "a riding" on donkeys - an approach of men in this manner to battle.Asses were formerly used in war where ............And a chariot of camels - A "riding" on camels. Camels also were used in war, perhaps usually to carry the baggage (see Diod. ii. 54; iii. 44; Livy, xxxvii. 40; Strabo, xvi. 3). They are used for all purposes of burden in the East, and particularly in Arabia.

Source : Barne's notes on the bible

So chariots simply means riders on camels and donkeys

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no need to be uppity... I was simply curious as to why you feel to seek to destroy another's faith. Personally, it's not important to me weather you accept or reject what I say.. More often rejection is the way I see.. :) I simply seek to dispel some misconceptions some muslims have about Christians and Christianity and the Bible. I've learnt quite a lot during my time here, and I have to say it was a cause of some personal sadness to be discriminated against with this new rule about limiting the number of posts we can contribute to. I don't see why it's necessary and it's certainly not conducive to fostering any mutual understanding. Still... As the saying goes your forum ..your rules.. I expect the reasons behind it are clear to muslims. Sad though .. Very sad.

Peace unto you.

I was very reluctant to answer or respond to this part simply because I felt it is not my place to answer , I usually tend to avoid responding to anything that has to do with the mediator of the forum. But since you are applying it to religous reasons I have to respond. Every single new member whether Muslim or Christian in this forum should exceed a certain amount of responses to have his post posted , this also applied to me , I have been here since February and I only got updated recently because I have exceeded a certain amount of responses.Again the rules apply to all members.


peace

[Burninglight]

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Every single new member whether Muslim or Christian in this forum should exceed a certain amount of responses to have his post posted , this also applied to me , I have been here since February and I only got updated recently because I have exceeded a certain amount of responses.Again the rules apply to all members.

peace

Since February? How many posts or responses have you made before you got updated to post directly without limitation to 3 threads if you even received that limitation? Your silence will confirm Pandora's comment.

peace

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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Since February? How many posts or responses have you made before you got updated to post directly without limitation to 3 threads if you even received that limitation? Your silence will confirm Pandora's comment.
peace

brotherمحمد سني 1989 is not anew member ; he is a distinctive one !!!!
the distinctive member is allowed to post directly .



stop complaining please.

[Burninglight]

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brotherمحمد سني 1989 is not anew member ; he is a distinctive one !!!!
the distinctive member is allowed to post directly .



stop complaining please.

What does one have to do to become a distinctive member? This is not a complaint; it is a question as my last post was that didn't get answered.

Peace

[pandora]

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First the jews understood it much differently than you do :

the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

[COLOR=#001320][RIGHT]) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310]

Rabbi Shimon bin Yohai is one of the fundimental and honered rabbis in the maintsream Jusaism (Not just The kabbala)

As for Chariots :

A chariot with a couple of horsemen; rather, a troop of horsemen riding two and two. This is exactly how a cavalry force was ordinarily represented by the Assyrians. Chariots are not intended either here or in ver. 9. They were not employed by the Persians until a late period of their history (see 'Ancient Monarchies,' vol. 4. pp. 113, 122). A chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; rather, men mounted on asses and on camels. It is well known that both animals were employed by the Persians in their expeditions to carry the baggage (Herod., 1:80; 4:129; Xen., 'Cyrop.,' 7:1, etc.). But neither animal was ever attached to a chariot.

Source : pulpit commentary

Also see:

And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen - This passage is very obscure from the ambiguity of the word rekeb - 'chariot.' Gesenius contends that it should be rendered 'cavalry,' and that it refers to cavalry two abreast hastening to the destruction of the city. The word rekeb denotes properly a chariot or wagon Judges 5:28; a collection of wagons 2 Chronicles 1:14; 2 Chronicles 8:6; 2 Chronicles 9:25; and sometimes refers to the "horses or men" attached to a chariot. 'David houghed all the chariots' 2 Samuel 8:4; that is, all the "horses" belonging to them. 'David killed of the Syrians seven hundred chariots' 2 Samuel 10:18; that is, all "the men" belonging to seven hundred chariots. According to the present Masoretic pointing, the word rekeb does not mean, perhaps, anything else than a chariot strictly, but other forms of the word with the same letters denote "riders or cavalry." Thus, the word rakâb denotes a horseman 2 Kings 9:17; a charioteer or driver of a chariot 1 Kings 22:34; Jeremiah 51:21. The verb râbab means "to ride," and is usually applied to riding on the backs of horses or camels; and the sense here is, that the watchman saw "a riding," or persons riding two abreast; that is, "cavalry," or men borne on horses, and camels, and asses, and hastening to attack the city.
With a couple of horsemen - The word 'couple' ( tsemed) means properly a "yoke or pair;" and it means here that the cavalry was seen "in pairs, that is," two abreast.
A chariot of asses - Or rather, as above, "a riding" on donkeys - an approach of men in this manner to battle.Asses were formerly used in war where ............[FONT=Trebuchet]And a chariot of camels - A "riding" on camels. Camels also were used in war, perhaps usually to carry the baggage (see Diod. ii. 54; iii. 44; Livy, xxxvii. 40; Strabo, xvi. 3). They are used for all purposes of burden in the East, and particularly in Arabia.

Source : Barne's notes on the bible

So chariots simply means riders on camels and donkeys

To me it appears you are twisting things again. If the chariots of camels represent the Ishmaelites it does still not make it a prophecy in regards to your prophet. God, often used nations against nations to His will. It is an account of the fall of Babylon.

conquer the land .... Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war],.... Sounds warlike references to me.

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I was very reluctant to answer or respond to this part simply because I felt it is not my place to answer , I usually tend to avoid responding to anything that has to do with the mediator of the forum. But since you are applying it to religous reasons I have to respond. Every single new member whether Muslim or Christian in this forum should exceed a certain amount of responses to have his post posted , this also applied to me , I have been here since February and I only got updated recently because I have exceeded a certain amount of responses.Again the rules apply to all members.

peace

I appreciate your candour.. But please be honest. I have been a member on this forum since 2012 in two years I have 670 posts to my name in the six months you have made approx half the number of posts and are allowed to post in any number of threads you wish and even edit your posts. I can only post in three threads at any time... And this been recently decided, which after a membership of two years I found most odd!! The difference that shouts at me is the fact you are a Muslim and I am not. Which seems in all intents and purposes religious discrimination. I have never spammed this forum I have always answered posts courteously even when provoked and insulted I at all times try my best to remain polite.. If otherwise I fail my God. If at any time I show rudeness or loose my cool I pray my God forgive me, and would be the first to offer an apology to any member I inadvertently caused offence to.

Anyway, i do find it a cause for sadness that there is not a level field on this forum and it is the only forum I have seen this method in regards to non muslims. But as we say life is not always fair or just.

Peace unto you

[محمد سني 1989]

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To me it appears you are twisting things again. If the chariots of camels represent the Ishmaelites it does still not make it a prophecy in regards to your prophet. God, often used nations against nations to His will. It is an account of the fall of Babylon.

conquer the land .... Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war],.... Sounds warlike references to me.

Where did I twist , I only copied YOUR CHRISTIAN INTERPIRATORS nothing more nothing less!!!!

It does not reference Babylon because the fall of Babylon was a part of the prophecy plus it the prophecy about babylon was mostly included in the first section which is the burdon on the desert by the sea

conquer the land is talking about the muslim conquest of palestine accordong to Rabbi Shimon ben Yohai

peace