Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

[pandora]

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Nope the context is talking about blessings which Ishmael was blessed , yet no disclusion of Ishmael was included:

"But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant." 15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name.16"I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

This was Isaac's part , Abraham asks about Ishmael's part and his blessing;

17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"18

Ishmael's blessing as Isaac before him :

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So Abraham was asking about blessings and god heard Abraham and so he will have a great nation one that bows to god and has a law

Look... This is getting ridiculous. Let's surmise... No one is denying that Ishmael was blessed by God, and promised great nations would come from him through his descendants. At NO point is Ishmael promised the covenant will go through him. At NO point did God decree a prophet would come from him. Twelve princes .. Yes.. A great nation... Yes. But a prophet NO. It does not matter how great you think the nations of Ishmael are.. Let's face it if you are referring to "Islamic nations" by today's standards there is not much greatness to be found. Define greatness? The Roman Empire was considered great in its time in regards to social cohesion and academia.. They were pagan and died a death.. Like so many other "great nations". You think a great nation is solely one which prays to God and obeys His laws? As muslims do not hold the monopoly on that then other nations NOT descended from Ishmael could also be considered great. If greatness referred to numbers ... Then there may be a point as certainly Ishmael's descendants were prolific.

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No not numbers or the nation from Isaac would be reffering to numbers also

great nation from the bible :

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12: 2

This is Gods covenantal promise to Abraham... Not Ishmael. It is Abraham who's name is great.. Thus Abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam as we all are blessed in one way or another through Abraham... Just as those under the covenant passed on to Isaac are thus blessed.. Jesus was the culmination of a line of prophets through Isaac... The child of promise. Jews see themselves under the Abrahamic covenant through Abraham and adhere to the conditions. Christians see themselves spiritually grafted onto the covenant through Jesus. Muslims I can only see as part of the covenant through Abraham.. Although you do not adhere to the conditions... But you are not part of the covenant through Ishmael as Ishmael was like yourselves was blessed through Abraham not by his own mediation.

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Verses 2, 3.

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- And I will make of thee a great nation. A compensation for leaving his small kindred. The nation should be great

(1) numerically (Keil, Rosenmüller),

(2) influentially (Kalisch, Inglis),

(3) spiritually (Luther, Wordsworth). And I will bless thee. Temporally (Pererius, Murphy), with every kind of good (Rosenmüller), in particular with offspring (Vatablus); but also spiritually (Rupertus, Bush), in the sense.


Source : pulpit commentary


Another in the bible :

What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 4:7-8)"

As I said you do not have the monopoly of righteous decrees and laws... And I don't see how your relationship with God is any better than mine as a Christian.

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I think you already know that the king james bible is the oldest english translation. Also there is a difference between Yes and No , so when one translation uses No and the other uses Yes there has to be a big question mark raised .

Being the oldest translation does not make it the most accurate. Besides its use of archaic language can be off putting when one has to have an old English dictionary to hand! You may prefer it as the Quran (at least translated into English) is very similar. I prefer a crisper, clearer translation. Besides... When the KJB was originally produced it did not use the wealth of manuscripts to compare as we have now. However.. The revised version covers this aspect. It's down to preference.

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No my problem is with the writers of the bible who in order to extremely glorfy their geneology they went into such depths as picturing Abraham as a man with a lack of faith.

That you have an issue with the Biblical scribes is your problem. The Bible is an honest true account of mankind and our relationship with God. You have a different relationship with Allah. Why pray tell... Would the Biblical scribes seek to glorify their genealogy? Of course you realise prophets very often used scribes and did not all write their own accounts. Their revelation was first transmitted orally it was often later committed to written form. What evidence that the scribes employed were any less honest or reliable than those scribes who penned the Quran? They too believed they were dealing with Gods words.

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This shows a need for cry to help from your part. I wasn't the first to rise such question , You were shown that frances worthington raised this question too. Any man with common sense would raise such question too when you tell him that Ishmael was older than Isaac and the biblical writers wrote Isaac his only son!!!! Surely many before raised this question. Your attempt to shut such questions is asking others to believe while keeping a blind eye to the truth !!!! Just open one eye and keep the other shut !!! You noncontradicting non irrational bible exists only in your fantasy

Don't make me laugh!!!! Cry for help.. ROTFL... It's clear as day what the term "only son" implies in the Bible.. That being the only son of Abraham and Sarah...!!!!!!!! For sure Ishmael was older... That has no baring on the fact that God had chosen Isaac as the child of covenantal promise. The fact that Frances Worthington and such like can't grasp this simple plain fact is not the fault of the scripture but their comprehension skills.

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As for jesus yes he will establish the kingdom of god when he comes back as we muslims believe. So what you say actually does not surprise me

peace

Well we agree on one thing.. That Jesus as Lord will return. We may differ on what impact that return will have. As a follower of Christ Jesus it's clear to me.. You have your own hope. I would not trade places with you based on what you have shown me of Islam thus far.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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Look... This is getting ridiculous. Let's surmise... No one is denying that Ishmael was blessed by God, and promised great nations would come from him through his descendants. At NO point is Ishmael promised the covenant will go through him. At NO point did God decree a prophet would come from him. Twelve princes .. Yes.. A great nation... Yes. But a prophet NO. It does not matter how great you think the nations of Ishmael are.. Let's face it if you are referring to "Islamic nations" by today's standards there is not much greatness to be found. Define greatness? The Roman Empire was considered great in its time in regards to social cohesion and academia.. They were pagan and died a death.. Like so many other "great nations". You think a great nation is solely one which prays to God and obeys His laws? As muslims do not hold the monopoly on that then other nations NOT descended from Ishmael could also be considered great. If greatness referred to numbers ... Then there may be a point as certainly Ishmael's descendants were prolific.

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You already stated that but yet this does not explain why the passage which blessed Abraham and Isaac was also used on Ishmael

Your explanation of great nation contradicts the bible's explanation in Deut and Genesis to the Israelites and Abraham, So your explanation does not mean anything

I will also make this clear When god said according to the writers of the bible he will establish his covenant with Isaac , he still said to Abraham that he has heard his prayer to Ishmael

It is that simple , I will not quote the passages you could find them above

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This is Gods covenantal promise to Abraham... Not Ishmael. It is Abraham who's name is great.. Thus Abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam as we all are blessed in one way or another through Abraham... Just as those under the covenant passed on to Isaac are thus blessed..Jesus was the culmination of a line of prophets through Isaac... The child of promise. Jews see themselves under the Abrahamic covenant through A

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braham and adhere to the conditions. Christians see themselves spiritually grafted onto the covenant through Jesus. Muslims I can only see as part of the covenant through Abraham.. Although you do not adhere to the conditions... But you are not part of the covenant through Ishmael as Ishmael was like yourselves was blessed through Abraham not by his own mediation.

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Again you are taking part of the passage only :

nd I will make

of thee a great nation

, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12: 2

Of thee meaning of Abraham of his linage a great nation not just his name . This great nation will be blessed as the passage also indicate

So the passage used here on Abraham was the same used on Ishmael , the blessing and the greatnessof the linage NOT JUST the name (I am not saying that the name is not blessed focus on this)

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As I said you do not have the monopoly of righteous decrees and laws... And I don't see how your relationship with God is any better than mine as a Christian.

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This does not answer my response . This statement is a clear way of avoiding the obvious answer

This passage shows what greatness of a nation is

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Being the oldest translation does not make it the most accurate. Besides its use of archaic language can be off putting when one has to have an old English dictionary to hand! You may prefer it as the Quran (at least translated into English) is very similar. I prefer a crisper, clearer translation. Besides... When the KJB was originally produced it did not use the wealth of manuscripts to compare as we have now. However.. The revised version covers this aspect. It's down to preference.

The orginal KJV did not contain the words Yes or No in the passage nor their interpritations or equil in 16th century english like the word Nay . So the delema and the question still exists why would they add such contradictory words on different biblical versions !!!!

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That you have an issue with the Biblical scribes is your problem. The Bible is an honest true account of mankind and our relationship with God. You have a different relationship with Allah. Why pray tell... Would the Biblical scribes seek to glorify their genealogy? Of course you realise prophets very often used scribes and did not all write their own accounts. Their revelation was first transmitted orally it was often later committed to written form. What evidence that the scribes employed were any less honest or reliable than those scribes who penned the Quran? They too believed they were dealing with Gods words.

One evidence is simply we do not know their names nor do we know the names of whom orally transmitted it while in the Quran we have all the names of the writers during the time of the prophet and Abubakr and Uthman and the names of whom orally memorized it and transmitted it through a chain of oral transmission

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Don't make me laugh!!!! Cry for help.. ROTFL... It's clear as day what the term "only son" implies in the Bible.. That being the only son of Abraham and Sarah...!!!!!!!! For sure Ishmael was older... That has no baring on the fact that God had chosen Isaac as the child of covenantal promise. The fact that Frances Worthington and such like can't grasp this simple plain fact is not the fault of the scripture but their comprehension skills.

LOL you are struglling . You are being cornered and debunked. Go to any person and tell them that you will take your only son for dinner , he or she will understand it in only ONE way , the boy is your only son and has no siblings thats what common sense says , however the christian fantasy world would defer to try to get out of this embaraccing situation

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Well we agree on one thing.. That Jesus as Lord will return. We may differ on what impact that return will have. As a follower of Christ Jesus it's clear to me.. You have your own hope. I would not trade places with you based on what you have shown me of Islam thus far.

Peace unto you.

And based on what you and all other christians I have come accross to I would definatly not even consider trading places , for I fear for what the reprecssions would be on the afterlife which would come from worshipping humans and trinitarian roman concepts

peace

[Burninglight]

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I will also make this clear When god said according to the writers of the bible he will establish his covenant with Isaac , he still said to Abraham that he has heard his prayer to Ishmael

It is that simple , I will not quote the passages you could find them above
Again you are taking part of the passage only :
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nd I will make

of thee a great nation

, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12: 2

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Of thee meaning of Abraham of his linage a great nation not just his name . This great nation will be blessed as the passage also indicate

So the passage used here on Abraham was the same used on Ishmael , the blessing and the greatnessof the linage NOT JUST the name (I am not saying that the name is not blessed focus on this)



This does not answer my response . This statement is a clear way of avoiding the obvious answer

This passage shows what greatness of a nation is



The orginal KJV did not contain the words Yes or No in the passage nor their interpritations or equil in 16th century english like the word Nay . So the delema and the question still exists why would they add such contradictory words on different biblical versions !!!!



One evidence is simply we do not know their names nor do we know the names of whom orally transmitted it while in the Quran we have all the names of the writers during the time of the prophet and Abubakr and Uthman and the names of whom orally memorized it and transmitted it through a chain of oral transmission



LOL you are struglling . You are being cornered and debunked. Go to any person and tell them that you will take your only son for dinner , he or she will understand it in only ONE way , the boy is your only son and has no siblings thats what common sense says , however the christian fantasy world would defer to try to get out of this embaraccing situation



And based on what you and all other christians I have come accross to I would definatly not even consider trading places , for I fear for what the reprecssions would be on the afterlife which would come from worshipping humans and trinitarian roman concepts

peace

God heard Ishmael is not the same as Ishmael heard God. Prophets hear God and prophets can be ignorant about certain things just like every day people. We don't make a god out of people just because they have the ministry of prophet hood. But when a prophet says something like God said, and God didn't say, that prophet was stoned in the Bible days. Prophets are not gods, but that is what you make them when you elevate them above other people as a better creation of God. Doing that is nothing short of idolatry, ignorance and deception for lack of better words. You by your ignorant comments appear to do this.
Being a great nation doesn't mean a godly nation or one that does God's will. America is a great nation that isn't doing God's will, but God 's will will be done. The trinity is not a term used in the Bible, but the concept is there. There is only one God and He is The Trinity. The trinity is a beautifully coined term to express God the father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I and the father are one. Trinity is a beautiful mystery. He is the one and only God you don't know!!!

Those that write with their own hands saying this is from Allah weren't Christians. There is nothing the Quran says about the NT Bible, Islam borrowed from, as being corrupted.

Peace

BTW, it is written: "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing should offend them." If I get offended by what someone says, I would try loving God's law more. Saying a prophet is ignorant like Jesus was ignorant about the day and our of the father's return is not an insult. But what you said about Paul being a Satan worshipper was obviously an attempt at being, insulting. The difference between me and you is I wasn't trying to be insulting, but you were, and God knows the difference between us. You do not promote Islam in a good light. I hope other Muslims can see this about you! Pandora has you pegged good.

Peace

[محمد سني 1989]

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God heard Ishmael is not the same as Ishmael heard God. Prophets hear God and prophets can be ignorant about certain things just like every day people. We don't make a god out of people just because they have the ministry of prophet hood. But when a prophet says something like God said, and God didn't say, that prophet was stoned in the Bible days. Prophets are not gods, but that is what you make them when you elevate them above other people as a better creation of God. Doing that is nothing short of idolatry, ignorance and deception for lack of better words. You by your ignorant comments appear to do this.

There is a sying in Arabic about situations like this its translation goes something like this:

She has accused me of her problem which is in her , (it sounds much more poetic in Arabic)

You have accused me of being ignorant while with a closer look on what you said first we see that it is actually you

When did I say god heard Ishmael !!!??? tell me

this was what I quoted :

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I will also make this clear When god said according to the writers of the bible he will establish his covenant with Isaac , he still said to Abraham that he has heard his prayer to Ishmael

his indicating Abraham not ishmael .

Do not put words on my mouth which I did not say

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Being a great nation doesn't mean a godly nation or one that does God's will. America is a great nation that isn't doing God's will, but God 's will will be done.

Pandora already steted this and I already answered her from what the bible said about a great nation in Deut and Genesis plus pulpit's commentary on the bible

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The trinity is not a term used in the Bible, but the concept is there. There is only one God and He is The Trinity. The trinity is a beautifully coined term to express God the father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I and the father are one. Trinity is a beautiful mystery. He is the one and only God you don't know!!!

I already answered this in its own thread do not mix up threads . Repeating a thing does not make it right rather shows your attempt to convince yourself of a certain ideology

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Those that write with their own hands saying this is from Allah weren't Christians. There is nothing the Quran says about the NT Bible, Islam borrowed from, as being corrupted.

Already Answered this in its own thread. The verse said that the people of the scriptures changed god's words and christians are part of the people of the scripture. So do not interpirate the Quran without knowing its meaning