Is the bible today the true word of God?

[pandora]

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Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.

I am sorry, but with all due respect... you have got to be having a laugh!!!! You actually believe that it is ok to claim the Holy Scriptures of another who holds it in highest esteem.. has been corrupted .. And not offer any proof whatsoever to back up their claim????

if I came out with the claim that the Quran is not the word of God and I have proof... Would you expect me to come forth and show you the proof?

I'm not sure I can even be bothered getting into a debate about the nature of the Holy Spirit.. I can see it will go nowhere. It's been said that some muslims believe the Holy Spirit to be Gabriel.. An angel.. So really... Best leave it.

I wish you on your chosen path M. Khaled. May God bless and guide you.

[pandora]

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Pandora in another thread says



So translations contain errors, you consider these translations word of God.
Let me see how the central message cannot be lost if we omit a word from that sentence
The verse says I am NOT God
Translators will translate it I am God
No central meaning lost here!!

Huria, enough already, you are being ridiculous!!! Muslims claim for the Quran that the original Quran in Arabic is the defining one and all translations into other languages are to be known as translations. As Arabic does not have some of the equivalent words in say .. English for example. Would that be considered a textual error or variation? Does that possible textual variant detract in any way from the central message of the Quran?

Yet somehow you see textual variants in translations of the Bible somehow completely changes and corrupts the central message to such an extent that God had to send another Prophet with a completely different central message. That may be ok for Allah but it sure does not apply to YHWH the God all the Prophets worshipped... YHWH is all powerful and perfectly able to protect His message from corruption from His humble creation... Man.

All Gods words in their Original form are true and their message is incorruptible. We have faith in God to stand by His Word.. Jesus..and His message remains the same no matter what words of men are used. You can take that to the bank!!!!

Are we done here?

Peace

[huria]

Pandora, I knew you will not answer because you have no answers, your book is corrupted and it is been corrupted to this day but you do not want to see the truth. It is all clear in this thread for true seeker of the truth.

'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'
you can't make the deaf hear, and you can't make the blind see.

[pandora]

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Pandora, I knew you will not answer because you have no answers, your book is corrupted and it is been corrupted to this day but you do not want to see the truth. It is all clear in this thread for true seeker of the truth.

'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink'
you can't make the deaf hear, and you can't make the blind see.

Huria, I did not say I would not answer your questions.. You asked so many.. More than my three questions which you repeatedly ignore. In fact you have not answered any of my questions. This thread just seems to be a vehicle for your refutes. I confess I find your manner difficult, but that is my problem not yours.. :) So, as you have asked so many points I will answer them separately.. Or try to. I hope you will grant me the curtesy of choosing the order in which I answer.

You ask if we have original Manuscripts the answer is we have copies of the originals and many (hundreds) of them, The Jews made copies of the torah in Hebrew and the Greek Christians made copies of the Old Testament it's not unreasonable to assume the loss of original as the materials they were recorded on would not have lasted and long rotted. You have no reason or evidence to show that the oldest copies we have in existence today are faithful copies of the original autographs.. After all they believed they were dealing with Gods divine message.

Also we didn't have a Christian Uthman to burn all our original copies to come up with one standard version or translation... We can compare and contrast and make God given intelligent decisions what God was saying in context by looking up words in Greek or Hebrew etc etc, This is something you as Muslims cannot do. Uthman burned the original Qurans and he didn't use memory to reconstruct it... As historical accounts claim he used Hafsah’s copy of the original and after her death, her copy was destroyed. Now this said to have happened after Muhammad’s death.. so, why do you pick on the Scriptures that God sent before when Allah said he sent them and his word in unalterable? If the Bible is corrupted as you imply, then so the Quran is also open to this possibility.. Because at some point in its conception men were involved... So you ask me how can we know the Bible is the true inspired word of God but can you prove prefect preservation of the Quran, because of the actions of Uthman. At least we didn’t burn our copies... We still have them for reference. We take it on faith that God sent the Torah and Gospel.

The central Gospel message is consistent. Jesus died for our sin and He is the only way to God, because He is the word of God. We believe there is only one God and Jesus is His word. Jesus is the word God used to create all things.. even the Quran states He is a word from Allah “BE” which is a form of I am. That is why Jesus could say “before Abraham was I am” He is the “Be” God used to create all things including you. Jesus is the word of God not a partner of God. He is the word that is eternal and uncreated. He is not a messenger.. he is the message. Jesus forgave sin, and accepted worship. We are not stupid. He doesn’t have to say I am Divine. We know in our hearts that He is the word of God and God exalts His word above all his name. We don’t associate anyone with God. Mohammed never criticized the Bible... he respected it as from God..he may have criticised some Jews and Christians but never the Bible itself.

Mohammed had friends that could read, and he heard gospel stories via oral tradition..it's perfectly feasible that he heard stories this way such as the virgin birth... Which was only found in the New Testament.. This could have influenced his revelations. You take it on faith that his revelations ( the Quran ) were from Allah via Gabrielle. Yet you criticise Christians for having faith that God revealed His Word to us through ( the Bible ).. So we don’t need to know the last names of inspired men of God... Or even the names on the scribes who penned the words..Our faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of what we don’t see. If you took all the Bibles and the Quran's and threw them into the ocean.. (I hear this comparison often) you could reproduce the Quran from oral tradition. Well.. The Gods word is independent of the Bible.. His Word is etched on the hearts of believers.

Peace

[pandora]

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Just I wanted to add some comments on what Pandora said first of all the question who corrupted the Bible and why and how is irrelevant, if I have seen a dead guy in the street examined him and found him murdered, someone beside me says, well to prove he was killed tell me who killed him and how and why, this question has nothing to do with the fact that the man is dead in front of us we may discuss if he is murdered or injured or just pretending, but the former question has nothing to do with our case.

Before we address the issue of the Holy Spirit I just re read your example above I don't quite see the analogy... if you saw a dead body in the street found him murdered.. and showed it to someone else. .. Then you are asked to prove how this person died..the who, how and why??? But where is the body of evidence you saw regarding the alleged corruption of Gods word? The authorities can't convict anyone of murder without the body. Where is the "body"? Once we see the "body" for ourselves, we can then determine who killed him, how and when. You haven't produced a "body". For all I know, you are seeing things that aren't there. I ask to see the evidence of this "body".. This proof you have.. Yet nothing? And you see that this lack of evidence on your part has no baring on your case??? Would that stand in a court of law do you think?

[pandora]

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Here we are again
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible

The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible

So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?

The Bible itself claims to be written under “Inspiration” from the Holy Spirit. God revealed Himself through Prophets to speak to a much larger audience.... Mankind. In the same way some one would pick up a pen as an instrument to achieve a goal.. The pen becomes the tool in the hand of the writer, the prophet is God’s pen in revelation. To illustrate ... if I wrote my name on a piece of paper with a pen... who wrote the name? Me or the pen?... The pen does not have the power to write on its own thus I am the force or spirit behind the pen..just as God is the Force or Spirit behind the Prophets. The Holy Spirit is the means by which God conveys understanding.

We've already established the Bible ( unlike the Quran) is a collection of books. As the prophets received revelation the books were collected in manuscript form. The original manuscript, written by the prophet is known as the autograph. The autograph is inspired by God from the first generation. The autograph is then copied to additional manuscripts. As the manuscripts wear out over time from use and environment.... the manuscript is again copied onto a new scroll. This process of copying the old manuscript to a new manuscript is known as manuscript transmission. Over a period of time the manuscripts from accepted prophets were collected. This collection of manuscripts is known to us as the Bible.... Which is what we have today.. Whatever you may think or believe to the contrary. You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask. But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

The Bible can only have been produced under divine inspiration.. Mankind could not have produced a coherent account of Creation.. Mankind's fall and Gods ultimate plan for our redemption to bring us back to where we were always meant to be with God the Father... Without the will of God... Without the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His Word Jesus... That's what we have in the Bible. There are no contradictions in the Word of God that effect the central theme of His message.

BTW... God decides everything.

Peace.

[M.Khaled]

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Before we address the issue of the Holy Spirit I just re read your example above I don't quite see the analogy... if you saw a dead body in the street found him murdered.. and showed it to someone else. .. Then you are asked to prove how this person died..the who, how and why??? But where is the body of evidence you saw regarding the alleged corruption of Gods word? The authorities can't convict anyone of murder without the body. Where is the "body"? Once we see the "body" for ourselves, we can then determine who killed him, how and when. You haven't produced a "body". For all I know, you are seeing things that aren't there. I ask to see the evidence of this "body".. This proof you have.. Yet nothing? And you see that this lack of evidence on your part has no baring on your case??? Would that stand in a court of law do you think?

You misunderstood my point. I didn't say that I don't have a proof. I have a plenty of proof and you can take your time reading it here:
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/the-bible/
My point is that your argument "to prove me the Bible is corrupted tell me who corrupted it? and why and how?" has nothing to do with the Bible corrupted or not. If I want to prove that a guy is murdered then it has it's medical ways, but to ask me: "in order to prove that this guy is murdered tell me who murdered him and how and why" I have nothing to do with that nor does this prove that the guy in front of us who is shot by a bullet is not murdered. He is already shot in front of us, to look for the origin of the crime is something else than proving that this is a crime we see.

[M.Khaled]

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You quibble about words changed here and there and seek to show this in some way proves the Bible has been changed to the extent that the original message has been lost.. Or changed beyond recognition. You have no proof of this what so ever. Do you even ask yourself how man could even achieve a hoax on this scale? Even in today's world it would be an impossible task as the sheer number of manuscripts available are held in different locations by different groups of people. Imagine 2000 years ago it would be an even bigger ask.

Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

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But the biggest obstacle of all in your premise.. And the most obvious.. Is that to believe this claim that the Bible has been changed means one has to view God as an impotent, weak God unable to protect His word from change by His creation!!!! Do you not see how ludicrous a scenario that is?

Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

[pandora]

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Actually Muslims don't say that the original message has been FULLY lost, yes corruption occurred either by addition or omitting or substitution, but there is still some truth either in the Bible or in other non canonical books, which is another issue of the basis of your canon, but it is not our subject now, actually there is a clear gap in manuscripts which is about 150 years between the time of Jesus and the age of the oldest present manuscript, which is not accepted in Islamic standards as we don't know what happened to the scriptures during this time which is really a long period of time, especially when we find other issues proving corruption.

And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask. I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted.. There by leaving us without correct guidance. Why would a Holy God do this? As a test?? That is even more illogical.. Seeing as God is omniscient God would know the outcome thus rendering the test obsolete before it started.. You are right, this is not about Bible canon.. So leave that for another time. Yet you continue to miss the point that Gods message cannot be changed. The onus is rather on yourselves to prove these claims you make against the Bible since I have the utmost faith that the core message the Bible contains is unaltered in essence from its conception and for all eternity.
Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

http://www.normgeisler.com/articles/...0Testament.pdf

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Well, there is no promise by God that He shall protect the Torah or the Gospel, but He promised to protect the Quran, and when He talked about the Torah and Gospel, He told that He left this mission to the People of the Book to test them:
44. Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it. . (Holy Quran 5:44)
And this was very clear even in the Bible itself:
Deu 4:1 And now, O Israel, hearken unto the statutes and unto the ordinances, which I teach you, to do them; that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers, giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah your God which I command you.
This verse clearly tells that corruption in the Bible can happen, and it is not impossible because if it was impossible, there would have been no need that God warns them against it. The same as God ordered us not to murder or steal, does this mean that if someone murdered or stole that God is impotent or that He cannot control His creatures?

I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."
Psalm 12:6-7 "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."
Ps. 111:7-8 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
Is. 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Ps. 117:2 "... the truth of the Lord endureth for ever. Praise ye the Lord."
Ps. 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."
Ps 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

We also have the Living Word of God Jesus who said..

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

Peace.

am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

[M.Khaled]

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And you see no problem at all with this belief you have? The question has to come back to how do you prove what was changed, by whom and indeed why? I do not understand how you do not see that these are important questions to ask.

Again pandora, I am not concerned with how these changes came, what I am concerned with is that there are changes and that the Bible we have now cannot be considered as a reliable evidence from God due to several reasons as listed in my site. I am not interested to know who changed it and how and why because I actually see that there are changes, and that's all I am concerned with.

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I have faith in God who I believe is well able to protect His message... That's all His message.. It is just not logical to suppose that God could protect some of His message yet allow some to be corrupted..

Ok, was God not able to protect His people from murder or persecution? This life is a test.

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Gap in manuscripts of 150 years? Really... I respectfully ask you to read the link I provide here :

So because there is a manuscript referring to five verses in John you assume that this is an evidence that the whole NT with its canon were present the same way it is present now as 27 books? To have some verses doesn't mean that this is the whole Bible, what is the proof that these verses were in another book other than Gospel of John and the writer of John took it from the source of this fragment whom we don't know who wrote it or which book did it refer to. Even if it really represented the whole NT, there is still a gap of about 70 years, even 1 year gap is not enough to prove that every thing was ok and no changes occurred.

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I really do not see how you come to that conclusion from that verse.. It is plainly admonishing any who believe they can change Gods words with impunity. God gave man free will, we are at the mercy of Satan who lords over this world even when we do not realise it.. There is a world of difference between man sinning.. (Which we all do every day.. Even small sins are a weight against us.. ) and God choosing not to protect His word when it's quite clear throughout the Bible that God claims His word is incorruptible and will last for eternity,

So why did God order His people not to add or omit from the Torah if they cannot do so?Would God forbid something that cannot be done? Actually the verses you quoted concerning God's words are not related to the books sent to Jews or Christians, but to His will and promises which is something else.

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I wonder that mankind puts too much emphasis on the written word and in the process losing the most important aspect of the message. Personally, I don't stress as much importance on the written words as the message those words convey.. They were conveyed by men.. Albeit men inspired by God but men none the less. God knows our weakness so surely would ensure that words alone are not all there is to God. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy reading my Bible and it brings me great peace and understanding.. My guidance comes from the living Gospel that is Jesus... And that truly brings me closer to God.

And you are supposed to have known Jesus from the Gospels, so your guidance is actually from the Gospels.

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am I to continue with Huria's questions? Or has Huria given up? Or maybe Huria is preparing his evidence. :)

Well, I am not replacing huria. I just wanted to add my thoughts.