Constant misuse of scripture used out of context. The picking and choosing of Bible verses that would seem at face value to support your claim.. Again..not bothering with the context. The continued insult to Jesus by the term used son of Mary. Although one Muslim in the past did have the good grace to say he would use another title in regards to Jesus when in dialogue with me. Poorly thought out titles for threads, which shows a serious lack of knowledge on the topic chosen... Which does not bode well for any dialogue. The demands to respect all muslims and Islam when the same respect is not reciprocated.... I could go on.. But I think you get the point.
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Well that's an issue from our point of view and I believe this is a good point to start from . But I'll leave that to my brothers and sisters who know more .
It may be an issue for yourselves... But not so for a Christian.. However, when we take the trouble to compose a post in reply to explain why we see things thus and why it makes perfect sense and is supported by scripture. No notice is taken.
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Who told you we claim they are sinless ?! The prophet peace upon him said :
And that includes the prophets as well . However , prophets never commit major sins known as "Kaba'ir" and if they make even the slightest mistake due to their human nature , they are informed of that mistake by Allah as in the story of prophet Muhammad peace upon him and the blind man . And they might do something wrong but it is not intentional as what happened with Musa peace upon him when he killed a man .
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http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/members/129019.html ... In post 19 above made the following claim..
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No that is not true , prophets in he quran are immune to sin , no where are they portrayed a the bible portrays them****
It is not the first time I have heard muslims make the claim that prophets were sinless. As being immune to sin implies it is not possible for one to sin... Ergo ..sinless. As for major and minor sins or sins being regarded as mistakes I do not see that a possibility for various reasons. from a biblical perspective we are told that ALL sin is an affront to God. Whereas sins may well vary in degrees .. A sin is a sin before God. Any action that goes against Gods Holy law is disobedience before God, weather it be theft, pride, lust, adultery, greed or murder... If God has decreed a man must not break His divine laws and man goes ahead and breaks them... then man is disobedient. All sin is basically disobedience against God. Adam and Eve were banished and punished for their disobedience against God to the extent it had lasting repercussions for man. So we know the importance God places on sin. By viewing some minor sins as mere mistakes is dangerous indeed, It's not for man to decide what is sin and what is mistake. I do not think Islam stresses the importance of sin or it's effect on mankind and a Holy God.
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Not you . The words of Burnlight imply this . But maybe I'm wrong and thus I didn't say it's certain .
Fair enough, though I cannot speak for Burninglight I would doubt he would imply such. We know Prophets were men and women and as such were sinners and thus believe that the Bible gives an honest portrayal of the Prophets.
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Because we differ in the essential basics . Prophets are the best of humans whom Allah chose to deliver his message . Would Allah really choose sinners who commit severe sins and even turn to worship idols ? A sign of Quran appears in my mind now :
We may differ in the essential basics as you say, but our reasons for our belief is every bit as valid as your own. I see the Bibles view perfectly consistent. Who are we to decide what people God should chose as a prophet? God see into the heart of the pure and the sinner. Jesus taught he was not come for the righteous but for the sinners.. The righteous man is already attuned to God it's the sinner I need of redemption that is in greater need. We know that all can be saved by Gods grace and the worse sinner can be redeemed through Gods grace and mercy and become a righteous person. I see this as a greater example.. Because if we are all sinners if even a prophet who sins and finds forgiveness through God... And that's what the Bible shows by its honest portrayal of the prophets.. Then we can see that we too may be saved if we too can be repentant and go onto live a righteous life in God.
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If the messenger himself cannot be trusted , how do we trust the message ? That's the point in need of discussing . On the contrary in Islam , honesty of a narrator is one of the conditions to accept a narration .
By supreme faith in God, that God's choice is always better than our own. We can be fooled by a hypocrite or an evil person masquerading as good. God cannot.
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What happened or what did he do to get banned ?
You can see for yourself under the thread.. Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity... Posts 81 and 87 the use of the word ignorant was seen as an insult. Which seeing everyone is ignorant of something as we all cannot know everything is not really an insult in the true sense of the term. I don't believe it was meant as such.. But maybe Burninglight did not realise the depth of Muslim sensibilities on such a matter. I feel a warning would have been more appropriate and at least a chance to offer an apology. Everyone should be offered the chance of making amends I feel. As for insulting a Muslim member well... Insults were not one way and on balance it seemed Burninglight was at the receiving end of harsher insults.. But again there was no castigation of the muslim member involved.. Which I feel looks unfair and if you are representing your religion of Islam... It's not good. As for the moderators remarks in posts 83 and 84... Sorry I feel they are out of order! I don't mean this as a personal affront on anyone (your forum your rules) but you asked and I am answering as I see things which obviously will not be the same as you and other muslims members will likely see things.. :)
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Just a personal side comment : I find that hilarious to here honestly . You could discuss the evidence for Islam and Christianity later if you want but I suggest to finish this matter first .
It's already been discussed and Islam has not been proven to me from the evidence and the manner with which it has been presented.
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So , after all those months , you STILL don't agree with the shining clear signs and narrations saying the people of the book altered the message ? Well then , evidence for corruption is another subject we should keep in mind and it might be better to include it in the discussion of evidence for Islam and Christianity .
The signs may be shining clear to you but they certainly are not to me. For the evidence so far presented is rather ambiguous claims about some Jews changing some scripture for personal gain. If indeed the Torah was corrupted to such an extent that a new message was needed one would need greater evidence than a few rather ambiguous verses. As for the injil you claim was given to Jesus, but of which there is not a shred of evidence in the world today to show it ever existed. What can one say on that? Over and above that.. Such a claims requires me to believe that God either chose not to protect His message from change by His creation or was unable to do so. Both scenarios are unacceptable with the view I hold of God being all powerful and the creator of all we are and all we can ever be. Then we have muslims taking from the Bible... A work they believe to be corrupt.. Validation of Prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the corrupt Scriptures you spend your lives proving false! That makes no sense. Because if I thought and of the Bible was corrupt I would not believe any of it... For you have no way of knowing what was changed and what was not.. Without proof... Which you do not have.
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Originally Posted by نصير الدين
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