The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin

[pandora]

Quote

This interpritation has nothing to do with Jewish apocrypha or the talmud and midrash

I didn't say it did.. Read my post I said not all early Jewish literature was considered inspired by God, and gave the apocrypha as an example. I was making a general point.

Quote

As for the strict policy well you are wrong , do some research about for example the story of the adultress woman found in John 8 , this story as agreed upon by all historians

I'm sorry but why are you bringing the Gospels into the equation? We are talking of the Jewish Torah are we not... Christians know quite well what was added to the Gospels and can give a pretty good idea of when it occurred. That's why your post about the ending of Mark which seems to have perturbed you some what has not been addressed.. It's old news.

Quote

I am not talking about one or two scholars , I am talking about the major concensus of the biblical interpritors , there is a difference.

When some author writes an article to change and twist the interpritations of a clear passage ; a change which contradicts all the previous established meaning of the clear text , just in order to avoid muslim objections on the bible!!!! That my dear friend is a bias interpritation which makes it false !!!!!

numbers are immaterial unless you are simply going to go with the consensus of opinion I guess. Allow me to share another observation on books with you... All books or articles written to an audience are can never be truly unbiased... The author will always have his/her agenda. Target audience..profit.. Or simply making a name for themselves on the stage of academia. You will obviously favour articles which support your view, it's clear from an earlier post you made in relation to the linage of the prophet of Islam where you gave some websites for reference.. You said two were from Christian sources.. They were not. I can only guess in your quest to prove your point you chose what you thought were Christian and yay.. Point proven. Nada.. You do the same with Bible verses.. Using them out of context when you feel they prove your point.. Yet Nada.. They do not... And so do nothing to prove your point, except maybe to fellow muslims.

Quote

You revert to defaming the other part in order to ignore the response !!


Sorry to disappoint you but You have proved nothing !!! nor have you debunked anything!!!!


I mean hebrew literiture applies to jewish appocrypha in this passage !!!! Really another claim which you cannot back up


Gill's exposition and pulpit commentary and the other christian interpritors do not matter !!!!


Words of god means interpritation of the words !!!!


Really this is the bases of your arguments !!!


As a librarian you should have known better , but you answered in such a way which really was not fair to your own argument
I am sorry to say but it was you who refuted your own argument.


Peace unto you may god guide you to the truth

you have pretty much misunderstood everything I have posted. I think we are done here.. Don't you?

Peace unto you also.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

I didn't say it did.. Read my post I said not all early Jewish literature was considered inspired by God, and gave the apocrypha as an example. I was making a general point.

Clearly you haven't since your response was based on explaining that the phrase hebrew literuture which pulpit used could have reffered to non OT documents like talmud , midrash or the apocryphatic texts , which is not true at all since its within the context of explaining the passage , pulpit used it to refer to the OT

Quote

I'm sorry but why are you bringing the Gospels into the equation? We are talking of the Jewish Torah are we not... Christians know quite well what was added to the Gospels and can give a pretty good idea of when it occurred. That's why your post about the ending of Mark which seems to have perturbed you some what has not been addressed.. It's old news.

WRONG pandora!!!!! WRONG

Either you have ignored my response or just quickly skimmed to it , I have already mentioned two other examples relating to the OT
more importantly you said the bible so need to play such games

Quote

numbers are immaterial unless you are simply going to go with the consensus of opinion I guess. Allow me to share another observation on books with you... All books or articles written to an audience are can never be truly unbiased... The author will always have his/her agenda. Target audience..profit.. Or simply making a name for themselves on the stage of academia

WRONG!!! .....AGAIN pandora

Yet again you have proved to everybody that you are avoiding admitting the truth and trying to twist and manipulate the basic understanding

The christian commentray sources which I have cited are just two examples of CHRISTIAN INTERPRITATION , which all have the same opinion about the passage , the fact that a christian author of an article ON A MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE website would defer shows either a personal opinion to avoid admitting what the muslim claim or just simply being dishonest !!!!

So again you are trying to avoid the bias in the article you copied and pasted by holding on to the technicality that all articles and books are bias!!!!!

BTW I already cited many jewish and christian sources which shows that the prophet and his followers were from Ishmael here:

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200780.html

Quote

you have pretty much misunderstood everything I have posted. I think we are done here.. Don't you?

Tell that to yourself

peace

[pandora]

Quote

Clearly you haven't since your response was based on explaining that the phrase hebrew literuture which pulpit used could have reffered to non OT documents like talmud , midrash or the apocryphatic texts , which is not true at all since its within the context of explaining the passage , pulpit used it to refer to the OT

No.. Sorry, it it is you who is wrong. My response was not based on the phrase regarding Hebrew literature, I simply mentioned in passing the fact that not all early Jewish literature was considered divine in nature. As Jeremiah 8:8 is dealing with the OT, then obviously the text in question is divine. You would do well to read up on the context of Jeremiah and who and what he is addressing. If you read more of pulpit commentary instead of just skimming off what you thought suited your purpose then you would have had a clearer picture. Please read below and bear in mind the example I gave you... If I myself interpreted a verse from my church Bible and changed it from the original meaning..

Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would “testify” against him.)

Based on the methodology above how do you suppose the scribes were able to corrupt the words of the Torah without such a deception being discovered? It seems far more likely that the dishonest scribes Jeremiah talks of here were guilty of ignoring the law in the Torah and teaching the people their own false interpretations. Subsequent prophets taught from the Torah, Jesus Himself taught from the Torah and said He had come to fulfil its laws. Do you think they were ignorant of the Torah Law being corrupted? You must decide if the lying scribes were greater than the prophets who followed them, the prophets who were guided by God... In whom I would place my faith that they would know truth from falsehood. Unless you are claiming all subsequent prophets after Jeremiah and also the Lord Jesus were complicit and knowingly taught from a corrupt Torah. I do hope you do not believe such a scenario!!

Quote

WRONG pandora!!!!! WRONG

Either you have ignored my response or just quickly skimmed to it , I have already mentioned two other examples relating to the OT
more importantly you said the bible so need to play such games

I do wish you would stop with the shouting and such bold statements that I am always wrong in whatever I say.. For sure the law of averages I must surely get something right sometimes!!!! You have consistently demonstrated IMHO a lack of knowledge in Christianity yet you behave as if you're some kind of expert. Friend... Arrogance is not becoming, I feel it is you who skim over my posts because you evidently don't understand what I say. Believe me I read your replies intently.. Usually more than once in order to be clear what point you are making, because it may be clear to you.. But not always as clear to me. Honestly.. I am not playing games here.

Quote

WRONG!!! .....AGAIN pandora

Yet again you have proved to everybody that you are avoiding admitting the truth and trying to twist and manipulate the basic understanding

The christian commentray sources which I have cited are just two examples of CHRISTIAN INTERPRITATION , which all have the same opinion about the passage , the fact that a christian author of an article ON A MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE website would defer shows either a personal opinion to avoid admitting what the muslim claim or just simply being dishonest !!!!

So again you are trying to avoid the bias in the article you copied and pasted by holding on to the technicality that all articles and books are bias!!!!!

honestly.. What is this truth I am avoiding? I stated unequivocally that the article I posted on Jeremiah 8 and the articles you posted from pulpit commentary and Gills Bible etc.. Were for all intents and purposes in agreement. It is YOU who seem unable to see that. And please don't you ever imply that I am being dishonest!! It's bad enough being shouted at, having to read bad language and being called mistress without my honesty and integrity being called into question. Am I in dialogue with adults here or are you children??? If you do not see the context of author bias when it comes to works of literature then I am not sure where to go from here.

Quote

BTW I already cited many jewish and christian sources which shows that the prophet and his followers were from Ishmael here:

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200780.html

jolly good.

Quote

Tell that to yourself

peace

Right.. I will.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

No.. Sorry, it it is you who is wrong. My response was not based on the phrase regarding Hebrew literature, I simply mentioned in passing the fact that not all early Jewish literature was considered divine in nature. As Jeremiah 8:8 is dealing with the OT, then obviously the text in question is divine.

That was the whole point , so they were manipulating the writtings NOT the interpritation!!!!

Plus if you did not mean that it was about other texts and it was about OT then why argue!!!!! and why say this :

Quote

Regarding "Hebrew Literature" .. You are joking here right? Not all Hebrew literature was considered the inspired word of God... Early Jewish

Apocrypha also had its place in society but was NOT considered inspired or part of the Jewish canon. You understand that literature is written but you do not seem to understand that NOT all literature is inspired by God!! I am sometimes inspired by the world around me to write poetry... Should I claim God directly inspired me to write poetry?? If I did claim thus is my poetry of divine origin???

I mean what is the point now with such statements , I already was talking about what pulpit said !!! so why do you need to mention this ??

Quote

. If you read more of pulpit commentary instead of just skimming off what you thought suited your purpose then you would have had a clearer picture. Please read below and bear in mind the example I gave you... If I myself interpreted a verse from my church Bible and changed it from the original meaning..

Before his death, Moses wrote 13 Torah Scrolls. Twelve of these were distributed to each of the 12 Tribes. The 13th was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would “testify” against him. (Likewise, if he had access to the scroll in the Ark and tried to falsify it, the distributed copies would “testify” against him.)

Based on the methodology above how do you suppose the scribes were able to corrupt the words of the Torah without such a deception being discovered? It seems far more likely that the dishonest scribes Jeremiah talks of here were guilty of ignoring the law in the Torah and teaching the people their own false interpretations.

It is interesting that you are accusing me of misinterpriting pulpit while I gave you all of what pulpit said , yet you still did not answer and claimed his opinion here is just circumstantial differentiation ; a simple difference in the opinion which is wrong , added to what Gill said here :

Lo, certainly ... - Rather, Verily, lo! the lying pen "of the scribes" hath made it - the Law - into a lie. The mention of "scribes" in this place is a crucial point in the argument whether or not the Pentateuch or Torah is the old law-book of the Jews, or a fabrication which gradually grew up, but was not received as authoritative until after the return from the captivity. It is not until the time of Josiah 2 Chronicles 34:13 that "scribes" are mentioned except as political officers; here, however, they are students of the Torah. The Torah must have existed in writing before there could have been an order of men whose special business it was to study it; and therefore to explain this verse by saying that perhaps the scribes were writers of false prophecies written in imitation of the true, is to lose the whole gist of the passage. What the scribes turned into a lie was that Law of which they had just boasted that they were the possessors. Moreover, the scribes undeniably became possessed of preponderating influence during the exile: and on the return from Babylon were powerful enough to prevent the restoration of the kingly office
Barne's Notes on the bible

As for what you mentioned of testifying :

Again this is the writers view and the bible never said that the ark would testify against its !!!

Did it testify against the sumeritans or the writers of the dead sea scroll ???

Quote

. Do you think they were ignorant of the Torah Law being corrupted? You must decide if the lying scribes were greater than the prophets who followed them, the prophets who were guided by God... In whom I would place my faith that they would know truth from falsehood. Unless you are claiming all subsequent prophets after Jeremiah and also the Lord Jesus were complicit and knowingly taught from a corrupt Torah. I do hope you do not believe such a scenario!!

I already discussed many times , in short Jesus had the original Torah and gospel with him

Quote

You have consistently demonstrated IMHO a lack of knowledge in Christianity yet you behave as if you're some kind of expert.

This is coming from the person who could not answer, explain and also contradicts the trinity doctrine in christianity !!!!!

Quote

Friend... Arrogance is not becoming, I feel it is you who skim over my posts because you evidently don't understand what I say

Really because it seems you are having a hard time keeping up

Quote

honestly.. What is this truth I am avoiding? I stated unequivocally that the article I posted on Jeremiah 8 and the articles you posted from pulpit commentary and Gills Bible etc.. Were for all intents and purposes in agreement.

NOPE they do not

Quote

It is YOU who seem unable to see that. And please don't you ever imply that I am being dishonest!

Wrong on both accounts , Show me were gill and pulpit did not say that the literal words were not manipulated and it was the meaning
Show me where I called you or elluded to you being dishonest !!???

Complaining too much about anything and everything is what makes a person childish . Remember that.

Peace