Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

Lets not go round in circles on this issue.. I will leave it with. You have not answered all of my questions to my satisfaction. You have expressed your opinion and expect me to agree...!

LOL to your satisfaction!!! I honestly I am not looking for your satisfaction or anybody else , it is merely presenting the facts and the reader will see who has the truth on his side . I actually see most of your responses as absolutely unsatisfactory .

But when you say I have not addressed all your questions it alludes that I ignored your responses which I did not.

Quote

Why have you introduced the beliefs of the Samaritans? I thought we were talking about people of the book.. i:e Jews and Christians? There was no love lost between the Jews and Samaritans and you should be surprised that they held a different point of view from the Jews of the time. You are speculating here... You can read the rest of the article the link is at the bottom.. Should you wish. I do not see the relevance of the beliefs of Samaritans where it pertains to the question of Temple Mount.

First I am not going to debate links

Second the Samaritans are considered people of the book in Islam not just Jews and christians. Also the old christian sects like nestorians and gnostics are also considered people of the book

Quote

Additional grounds for animosity between the Israelites and Samaritans were the following:


1. The Jews, after their return from Babylon, began rebuilding their temple. While Nehemiah was engaged in building the walls of Jerusalem, the Samaritans vigorously attempted to halt the undertaking (Nehemiah 6:1-14).


2. The Samaritans built a temple for themselves on “Mount Gerizim,” which the Samaritans insisted was designated by Moses as the place where the nation should worship. Sanballat, the leader of the Samaritans, established his son-in-law, Manasses, as high priest. The idolatrous religion of the Samaritans thus became perpetuated.


3. Samaria became a place of refuge for all the outlaws of Judea (Joshua 20:7; 21:21). The Samaritans willingly received Jewish criminals and refugees from justice. The violators of the Jewish laws, and those who had been excommunicated, found safety for themselves in Samaria, greatly increasing the hatred which existed between the two nations.


4. The Samaritans received only the five books of Moses and rejected the writings of the prophets and all the Jewish traditions.


From these causes arose an irreconcilable difference between them, so that the Jews regarded the Samaritans as the worst of the human race (John 8:48) and had no dealings with them (John 4:9). In spite of the hatred between the Jews and the Samaritans, Jesus broke down the barriers between them, preaching the gospel of peace to the Samaritans (John 4:6-26), and the apostles later followed His example (Acts 8:25).


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Samarita...#ixzz3BRSIMg5t

What does this have to do with our discussion . I already know these facts !!!.

One fact you missed is that the Samaritans do not believe in the book of ezra and chronicles as a matter of fact Ezra peace be upon him is not considered a prophet in the Samaritan religion. There rabbianic ( If I could say so ) holds that the mountain of Jerzim is the actual temple mount

Quote

It is my belief the Bible records Gods words and intentions. On that basis there is no contradictions and no ambiguity. It clearly says what it says. Obviously you do not respect the Bible and seek to twist the words to your own interpretation to suit your agenda. It's not working. At least from my standpoint.

Where did I twist , is it not the bible writers who wrote your only son, is it not the bible writers who did not indicate where was mountain Moriah in Genesis !!!!

[

Quote

Your posts are too long, if I miss something I apologise. I do not use a PC and scrolling up the screen is tiresome if posts are long it's possible I may unintentionally miss something.

No problem , my posts are usually long because I quote passages from the bible and there jewish and christian interpritations , so next time I will try to make it short

Quote

Seriously... You think the miracle surrounding the birth of Isaac carries no significance??? Isaacs birth was decided by God.. Without Gods divine intervention Isaac would not have been born.

I never said that all I said that the miracolous birth of Isaac is of importance to show a gift from god to Isaac's parents , The miraclous birth is a gift to Sara and Abraham , the same happened with John the baptist it is a gift to their parents and nothing to do with the covenant , John had no covenant related to his offspring.

Quote

Ishmael, on the other hand.. Was born from Abrahams lack of faith in Gods promised provision of a son and Sarah's impatience. If God willed that Ishmael born through mans actions then there would have been no need for Isaac to ever exist. God could have made Ishmael the child of promise. God did no such thing.. God does not need to lay out His plan for mankind word for word as God has no need to answer to us His creation. Yet, everything we are and will ever be is part of that plan, Ishmael has a part to play and that is why he was blessed. God fulfilled His promise to Abraham in regards to Ishmael. No where does God promise prophets will come from his linage.

Your explanation is based on the understanding that Abraham the prophet of God and the highest pariarch has a lack of faith!!!!!
This is were we differ with the bible , we do not believe that Abraham had a lack of faith ever , on the contrary in fact , he always believed in God. He took Hagar as a concubine in Islam as a lawful thing to do at that time which people had wives and concubines. From the context of the bible Abraham also loved Ishmael and god blessed him.

Quote

I do wish you would read it in context... I shall address the points you have highlighted, if you still require further detail then you will have to make another post.in order from

1. ***Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!*** Abraham, realising that the covenant was to be established in another branch of his family... Isaac.. felt worried for his son Ishmael, whom he considered as necessarily excluded, note.. Ishmael was Abrahams only son up to this point and there is no doubt he loved him as a father would love a son. Out of divine mercy and love God delivers the prophecy which contains an answer to the prayer and wish of Abraham...


2. ***As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation*** The object of Abraham's prayer was, that his son Ishmael might be the head of a prosperous and potent people. Abraham knew that it was not Gods will that Ishmael would be part of the covenantal promise but still hoped good things for his son. Which God provided. God by His actions in enabling Isaac to be born had already decided Ishmael was to be excluded. No prophets would come from Ishmael.

Nope the context is talking about blessings which Ishmael was blessed , yet no disclusion of Ishmael was included:

"But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant." 15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name.16"I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

This was Isaac's part , Abraham asks about Ishmael's part and his blessing;

17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?"18

Ishmael's blessing as Isaac before him :

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So Abraham was asking about blessings and god heard Abraham and so he will have a great nation one that bows to god and has a law

Quote

3. ***And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring."*** yes! make a nation, even a great nation. This greatness could also imply great in number... Which for sure the evidence can be seen today. No where does God promise that prophets will come from Ishmael.

No not numbers or the nation from Isaac would be reffering to numbers also

great nation from the bible :

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12: 2


Verses 2, 3. - And I will make of thee a great nation. A compensation for leaving his small kindred. The nation should be great

(1) numerically (Keil, Rosenmüller),

(2) influentially (Kalisch, Inglis),

(3) spiritually (Luther, Wordsworth). And I will bless thee. Temporally (Pererius, Murphy), with every kind of good (Rosenmüller), in particular with offspring (Vatablus); but also spiritually (Rupertus, Bush), in the sense.


Source : pulpit commentary


Another in the bible :

What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 4:7-8)"

Quote

4.***The original King James bible DOES NOT have the word "No" in it the text is simply*** I have no need to check, I notice you quote many times from the KJB. Maybe you feel more comfortable with this version due to its use of archaic language which is similar to the language used in the Quran... Well, I mean when translated into English the language used appears to be similar. A more accurate translation in this case would be NIV. However, yes or no can equally be used here... Either way.. God hears Abraham but has already decided.. The matter was decided long before Ishmael was born.

I think you already know that the king james bible is the oldest english translation. Also there is a difference between Yes and No , so when one translation uses No and the other uses Yes there has to be a big question mark raised .

Quote

I don't see the point of spending much time on this as there is no doubt that Ishmael was son of Abraham and was circumcised according to what God decreed... As all males were so circumcised to come under the covenant as it was a required sign. It has nothing to do with being a future prophet.

Yes it has nothing to do with our topic and thats my point as a response to yours

Quote

to my mind your objection is with God on this matter, as I said already.. It's my belief the Bible accurately records this account and from a Biblical perspective it makes perfect sense and there are no contradictions.

No my problem is with the writers of the bible who in order to extremely glorfy their geneology they went into such depths as picturing Abraham as a man with a lack of faith.

Quote

The contradictions are in your own mind because the Biblical account does not tie in with your belief... Therefore you have to twist things to fit your belief .. When you can't you must cry corruption of the text. With no proof of who, why, when or where that's a pretty poor strategy. It makes no difference to the Bible... It will continue to stand on its own message.

This shows a need for cry to help from your part. I wasn't the first to rise such question , You were shown that frances worthington raised this question too. Any man with common sense would raise such question too when you tell him that Ishmael was older than Isaac and the biblical writers wrote Isaac his only son!!!! Surely many before raised this question. Your attempt to shut such questions is asking others to believe while keeping a blind eye to the truth !!!! Just open one eye and keep the other shut !!! You noncontradicting non irrational bible exists only in your fantasy

[/QUOTE]

***So god said kings of people , meaning who rule . This refers to actual kings ;*** this is your interpretation. Just to note Jesus was also a King



Peace unto you[/QUOTE]

That is not my interpritation rather Gill's interpritation of the bible :

kings of people shall be of her; as David, Solomon, and others, and especially the King Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

As for jesus yes he will establish the kingdom of god when he comes back as we muslims believe. So what you say actually does not surprise me


peace