Open topics on the Abrahamic faiths

[محمد سني 1989]

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if prophet Mohammed was indeed a descendant of Ishmael then as an Arab Muslim he would be under the blessing of YHWH.. As would any Arab Muslim or not. Burning light has already answered this is so.. Is it possible you did not see his post?? Just to be clear being blessed by YHWH is NOT the same as being under the covenant promise. So... Yes, to your question.



no comment as I can't see any link to any video.



Mount Moriah in Old City Jerusalem is the site of numerous biblical acts of faith. It is also one of the most valuable pieces of real estate and one of the most hotly contested pieces of real estate on earth. This is a profoundly sacred area to Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Sitting atop Mount Moriah today is the Temple Mount, a 37-acre tract of land where the Jewish temple once stood. Several important Islamic holy sites are there now, including the Dome of the Rock – a Muslim shrine built thirteen hundred years ago – and the Al-Aqsa Mosque.


Mount Moriah’s history begins in Genesis. In the twenty-second chapter, God commands Abraham, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you” (Genesis 22:2). The place God led Abraham was Mount Moriah. Abraham didn’t fully understand what God was asking him to do in light of God’s previous promise to establish an everlasting covenant with Isaac (Genesis 17:19); nonetheless, he trusted God and by faith offered Isaac as a sacrifice. Of course, God intervened and spared Isaac’s life by providing a ram instead. Abraham thereafter called this place “The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, ‘On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided’” (Genesis 22:14). Because of Abraham’s obedience on Mount Moriah, God told Abraham that his “descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed because you have obeyed me” (vv. 17, 18).


About a thousand years later at this very location, King David bought the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite and built an altar to the Lord so that a “plague may be held back from the people”(2 Samuel 24:18, 21). After David’s death, his son King Solomon built a glorious temple on the same site. Solomon’s temple lasted for over four hundred years until it was destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar’s armies in 587/586 B.C.


Seventy years later the temple was rebuilt on the same site by the Jews who returned to Jerusalem following their Babylon captivity. Around the first century, King Herod made a significant addition to this structure, which then became known as Herod’s Temple. It was this temple that Jesus cleansed (John 2:15).


However, in A.D. 70, the Roman armies led by Titus, son of the Emperor Vespasian, once again destroyed the temple. All that remains of the Temple Mount of that era is a portion of a retaining wall known as the “Western Wall” or the “Wailing Wall.” It has been a destination for pilgrims and a site of prayer for Jews for many centuries.


The God who first called Abraham to Mount Moriah still has plans for that place. The Bible indicates that a third temple will be built on or near the site of Solomon’s temple (Daniel 9:27). This would seem to present a problem given the political obstacles that stand in the way: the religious activities on the Temple Mount are currently controlled by the Supreme Muslim Council (the Waqf). Yet nothing can put a wrinkle in God’s sovereign plans. Thus, Muslim control of this area simply fulfills the prophecy of Luke 21:24 that “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/mount-Mo...#ixzz3B47utuan



What do you see as the significance of Temple Mount being in the hands of muslims today?

Peace.

Your first statement about the blessings is answered in my last response

As for mount Moraih Pandora , I am disapointed by your answer since none of it actually mentions a passage that states where mount Moriah is

All of what you said is a history of Jerusalim and the mosque nothing more nothing less

I thought while reading it I would see a passage that ultimately states that Mount Moriah is the temple mount , but no passage

Just passages relating events to the temple mount without stating the name of the mountain as Moriah !!!???

The only passage is 2 chronicles 3:1 it states :
Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

However there is two problems with this text :

1. It contradicts the fact that Ishmael was older than Isaac:
Genesis 22

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

we all know that Isaac at that time was younger than Ishmael , this itself puts doubt on the text in which Isaac was switched with Ishmael and probably moriah too

2. This book of chronicles was written in a really late date about 500 BC , it is also not known who wrote it , tradition holds its Ezra peace be upon him but it is only a claim . Chronilcs retells all the stories of the bile from a late jewish prespective.

I would also like to add where Ishmael lived according to the samaritan book Asatir (legends) of Moses Chapter VIII , Birth of Moses:

1. And after the death of Abraham, Ishmael reigned twenty seven years; 2. And all the children of Nebaot ruled for one year in the lifetime of Ishmael; 3. And for thirty years after his death from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates; and they builtMecca.; 4. For thus it is said (in Genesis 25:16): 'As thou goest towards Ashur before all his brethren he lay

As for what you said concerning the sentence which I coloured in red was already known for previous Jews:

in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310])

[pandora]

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Your first statement about the blessings is answered in my last response

you seem to take the fact that as you have expressed your opinion on a matter it is therefore answered satisfactorily. You don't stop to think that we may find your answer lacking in proof. It would be nice if you answered a question asked of you on occasion...or is that optional for Muslim members but for non muslims it's a requirement.

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As for mount Moraih Pandora , I am disapointed by your answer since none of it actually mentions a passage that states where mount Moriah is

why does that not surprise me.... I am constantly disappointed with your "answers" but harping on about it gets us nowhere..does it?

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All of what you said is a history of Jerusalim and the mosque nothing more nothing less

I thought while reading it I would see a passage that ultimately states that Mount Moriah is the temple mount , but no passage

Just passages relating events to the temple mount without stating the name of the mountain as Moriah !!!???


The only passage is 2 chronicles 3:1 it states :
Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at: http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

Also see.... The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt !


The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on Mount Zion and Temple Worship will be reestablished before the return of Jesus Christ.
A few facts about the Jewish Temple and the Temple Mount:


· The Temple Mount site exists in Jerusalem.


· Today, in 2007, here is no Jewish Temple.


· A Jewish Temple has not existed since 70 AD.


· Today, the Temple Mount is partially occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque.


· Negotiations regarding the Temple Mount were begun in September 20001


The Temple Mount


What does Scripture say about the Jewish Temple being rebuilt before the coming Day of the Lord?
Let's start with the prophet Daniel.


He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:27).


In this key prophecy, God says that in the middle of this last seven years an event called the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ will be set up on the wing of the temple. This prophecy is in reference to a future seven-year period called Daniel's 70th 'seven'. Therefore, by the middle of this last seven-years a Jewish Temple will exist on the Temple Mount.


Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul confirmed this when referring to the event known as ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ in their prophecies about the Second Coming.


Jesus commands that we understand this.


So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand (Matthew 24:15)


When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand (Mark 13:14)


In these two verses above, Jesus refers to the ‘abomination that causes desolation' which the prophet Daniel said would take place in relation to the temple. Below, Paul describes the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ when he says the Antichrist will go into the Jewish Temple and proclaim himself to be God.


Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).


In summary, the main events of the last seven-years start with the Antichrist confirming a covenant with many. After 3 ½ years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and offering in the temple declaring that he is God. This proclamation by the Antichrist will likely create a huge rebellion among the Jews and the rest of the world. Some will accept him but many will not. Those that do not worship the Antichrist will be persecuted and slaughtered. The Bible refers to time as the Great Tribulation. Lets read how Isaiah described temple worship which will lead up to the 'abomination that causes desolation' and the time of Great Tribulation.


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, 'Let Yahweh be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of Yahweh repaying his enemies all they deserve (Isaiah 66:3-6).


Israel will be at peace under the covenant which will be confirmed by the Antichrist. The Jews will be practicing temple worship again after almost 2,000 years. However, God is not pleased with temple worship at this time, most likely because Christ has already come and fulfilled the need for temple worship.


Next, the Antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrifice and offering and set himself up declaring that he is God. This abomination by the Antichrist will cause a riot in the temple and an uproar in the city, leading to its desolation. This event will initiate a time of unprecedented persecution and slaughter - the Great Tribulation.


Accepting Scripture at face value and interpreting prophecy as it has always been fulfilled, means that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before Christ returns.


Richard Perry


February 19, 2007. http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/will...be_rebuilt.htm

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However there is two problems with this text :

1. It contradicts the fact that Ishmael was older than Isaac:
Genesis 22

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

we all know that Isaac at that time was younger than Ishmael , this itself puts doubt on the text in which Isaac was switched with Ishmael and probably moriah too

We've already been over this... As you are disseminating the Bible here, then are we not to be using what the Bible actually says about the matter? There is NO contradiction, as previously stated the Bible does not disagree with the fact that Isaac was not the only son, and Ishmael was indeed the first born. However... It is also clear that Isaac was the child of promise and referred to as the ONLY SON.. As he was the only son of Abraham and his wife Sarah.... And it was the child of THIS union that was preordained by God as the child of the covenant promise. You've already seen the relevant verses attesting to this fact. The Bible also clearly states that Ishmael was blessed by God... Blessed is not the same as being chosen to carry on the covenant.

As for your claims I highlighted...why would the Jews wish to switch the name of Ishmael for Isaac? The Quran does not say the names were switched... In fact, it does not mention by name at all, thus leaving you and others to fill in the "blanks" and rewriting things that do not suit your purpose.... And probably.. !! Well, that simply supposition on your part with no proof to back it up.

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2. This book of chronicles was written in a really late date about 500 BC , it is also not known who wrote it , tradition holds its Ezra peace be upon him but it is only a claim . Chronilcs retells all the stories of the bile from a late jewish prespective.

I would also like to add where Ishmael lived according to the samaritan book Asatir (legends) of Moses Chapter VIII , Birth of Moses:

1. And after the death of Abraham, Ishmael reigned twenty seven years; 2. And all the children of Nebaot ruled for one year in the lifetime of Ishmael; 3. And for thirty years after his death from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates; and they builtMecca.; 4. For thus it is said (in Genesis 25:16): 'As thou goest towards Ashur before all his brethren he lay

As for what you said concerning the sentence which I coloured in red was already known for previous Jews:

in the jewish book the secrets of Rabbi Shimon :

ince he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us,

but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?

" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man,

for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael

in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom).

He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them

, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him:

"Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of asses before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of asses,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ass? [

Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of asses, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ass,

shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels

) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass (i.e. the Messiah)."

Source : (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310])

As I said the issue of the Temple was mentioned in other books apart from Chronicles.. And I don't know enough about Kabbalist's to comment on your source... Other than Rabbi Simon Ben Yohai I believe was of that persuasion.

I will mention ... I believe you are in error taking Isaiah 21:7 as in any way prophetic. The context of the passage is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 21:9 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon.” This passage actually has nothing to do with either Mohammed or Jesus... The references to horsemen, donkeys, and camels, just refer to the means by which the news of Babylon’s fall was spread. You can read whatever you like into the text, but sometimes it's simpler to read the words in the context they were placed with an open mind and things could just fall into place and make sense. Or you can just do what you do.... Which is you are at liberty to do. It doesn't change anything.

May I ask a question of you please? Why are you so determined to try and prove Christianity is false?

Peace unto you

[Burninglight]

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you seem to take the fact that as you have expressed your opinion on a matter it is therefore answered satisfactorily. You don't stop to think that we may find your answer lacking in proof. It would be nice if you answered a question asked of you on occasion...or is that optional for Muslim members but for non muslims it's a requirement.



why does that not surprise me.... I am constantly disappointed with your "answers" but harping on about it gets us nowhere..does it?



There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at: http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

Also see.... The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt !


The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on Mount Zion and Temple Worship will be reestablished before the return of Jesus Christ.
A few facts about the Jewish Temple and the Temple Mount:


· The Temple Mount site exists in Jerusalem.


· Today, in 2007, here is no Jewish Temple.


· A Jewish Temple has not existed since 70 AD.


· Today, the Temple Mount is partially occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque.


· Negotiations regarding the Temple Mount were begun in September 20001


The Temple Mount


What does Scripture say about the Jewish Temple being rebuilt before the coming Day of the Lord?
Let's start with the prophet Daniel.


He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:27).


In this key prophecy, God says that in the middle of this last seven years an event called the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ will be set up on the wing of the temple. This prophecy is in reference to a future seven-year period called Daniel's 70th 'seven'. Therefore, by the middle of this last seven-years a Jewish Temple will exist on the Temple Mount.


Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul confirmed this when referring to the event known as ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ in their prophecies about the Second Coming.


Jesus commands that we understand this.


So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand (Matthew 24:15)


When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand (Mark 13:14)


In these two verses above, Jesus refers to the ‘abomination that causes desolation' which the prophet Daniel said would take place in relation to the temple. Below, Paul describes the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ when he says the Antichrist will go into the Jewish Temple and proclaim himself to be God.


Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).


In summary, the main events of the last seven-years start with the Antichrist confirming a covenant with many. After 3 ½ years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and offering in the temple declaring that he is God. This proclamation by the Antichrist will likely create a huge rebellion among the Jews and the rest of the world. Some will accept him but many will not. Those that do not worship the Antichrist will be persecuted and slaughtered. The Bible refers to time as the Great Tribulation. Lets read how Isaiah described temple worship which will lead up to the 'abomination that causes desolation' and the time of Great Tribulation.


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, 'Let Yahweh be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of Yahweh repaying his enemies all they deserve (Isaiah 66:3-6).


Israel will be at peace under the covenant which will be confirmed by the Antichrist. The Jews will be practicing temple worship again after almost 2,000 years. However, God is not pleased with temple worship at this time, most likely because Christ has already come and fulfilled the need for temple worship.


Next, the Antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrifice and offering and set himself up declaring that he is God. This abomination by the Antichrist will cause a riot in the temple and an uproar in the city, leading to its desolation. This event will initiate a time of unprecedented persecution and slaughter - the Great Tribulation.


Accepting Scripture at face value and interpreting prophecy as it has always been fulfilled, means that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before Christ returns.


Richard Perry


February 19, 2007. http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/will...be_rebuilt.htm





We've already been over this... As you are disseminating the Bible here, then are we not to be using what the Bible actually says about the matter? There is NO contradiction, as previously stated the Bible does not disagree with the fact that Isaac was not the only son, and Ishmael was indeed the first born. However... It is also clear that Isaac was the child of promise and referred to as the ONLY SON.. As he was the only son of Abraham and his wife Sarah.... And it was the child of THIS union that was preordained by God as the child of the covenant promise. You've already seen the relevant verses attesting to this fact. The Bible also clearly states that Ishmael was blessed by God... Blessed is not the same as being chosen to carry on the covenant.

As for your claims I highlighted...why would the Jews wish to switch the name of Ishmael for Isaac? The Quran does not say the names were switched... In fact, it does not mention by name at all, thus leaving you and others to fill in the "blanks" and rewriting things that do not suit your purpose.... And probably.. !! Well, that simply supposition on your part with no proof to back it up.



As I said the issue of the Temple was mentioned in other books apart from Chronicles.. And I don't know enough about Kabbalist's to comment on your source... Other than Rabbi Simon Ben Yohai I believe was of that persuasion.

I will mention ... I believe you are in error taking Isaiah 21:7 as in any way prophetic. The context of the passage is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 21:9 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon.” This passage actually has nothing to do with either Mohammed or Jesus... The references to horsemen, donkeys, and camels, just refer to the means by which the news of Babylon’s fall was spread. You can read whatever you like into the text, but sometimes it's simpler to read the words in the context they were placed with an open mind and things could just fall into place and make sense. Or you can just do what you do.... Which is you are at liberty to do. It doesn't change anything.

May I ask a question of you please? Why are you so determined to try and prove Christianity is false?

Peace unto you

Very good replies Pandora. I would like to add or qualify one thing you said for our Muslim brothers and that is about when Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51) (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God. The clarifier is that we only have this unimpeded access through Christ Jesus. I know you know this, but they might not.

Now since this thread is open topics on our faiths, and we are limited to only three posts, I would like to comment on the forgotten Holy Spirit thread. This thread is a typical example of Muslims accusing their Christian brothers of exactly what Islam or they're doing; for instance, the Holy Spirit is not forgotten by Christians; it was forgotten by Allah and his slave messenger. Allah never mentions the Holy Spirit as being God or the third person of the trinity to Christians; instead, he implies himself as the third person and Mary as the second. If the Bible has forgotten the Holy Spirit, the Quran trumps the Bible on that, LOL. He calls the Holy Spirit Gabriel. At least we know from our Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is God, and not and angel. As I mentioned, the tri unity of God cannot be explained, nor are we commanded by God to explain Him. For all I know, the Holy Spirit could be the relationship between the father and the son.
Jesus said, if you hate your brother, you are a murderer. Why? Is hating someone the say as murder? Yes, it is! When we hate we kill a relationship. The relationship is just as important as the people having the relationship. God's relationships are spiritual and holy. This is just a thought on my part; I could be wrong, but I believe I see in part as through a glass darkly, but when that which is perfect is come (Jesus), I will see clearly and know even as I am known!

Peace and blessing to all

[محمد سني 1989]

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you seem to take the fact that as you have expressed your opinion on a matter it is therefore answered satisfactorily. You don't stop to think that we may find your answer lacking in proof. It would be nice if you answered a question asked of you on occasion...or is that optional for Muslim members but for non muslims it's a requirement.



why does that not surprise me.... I am constantly disappointed with your "answers" but harping on about it gets us nowhere..does it?



There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at: http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

Also see.... The Jewish Temple Will Be Rebuilt !


The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt on Mount Zion and Temple Worship will be reestablished before the return of Jesus Christ.
A few facts about the Jewish Temple and the Temple Mount:


· The Temple Mount site exists in Jerusalem.


· Today, in 2007, here is no Jewish Temple.


· A Jewish Temple has not existed since 70 AD.


· Today, the Temple Mount is partially occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock mosque.


· Negotiations regarding the Temple Mount were begun in September 20001


The Temple Mount


What does Scripture say about the Jewish Temple being rebuilt before the coming Day of the Lord?
Let's start with the prophet Daniel.


He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Daniel 9:27).


In this key prophecy, God says that in the middle of this last seven years an event called the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ will be set up on the wing of the temple. This prophecy is in reference to a future seven-year period called Daniel's 70th 'seven'. Therefore, by the middle of this last seven-years a Jewish Temple will exist on the Temple Mount.


Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul confirmed this when referring to the event known as ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ in their prophecies about the Second Coming.


Jesus commands that we understand this.


So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand (Matthew 24:15)


When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand (Mark 13:14)


In these two verses above, Jesus refers to the ‘abomination that causes desolation' which the prophet Daniel said would take place in relation to the temple. Below, Paul describes the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ when he says the Antichrist will go into the Jewish Temple and proclaim himself to be God.


Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).


In summary, the main events of the last seven-years start with the Antichrist confirming a covenant with many. After 3 ½ years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and offering in the temple declaring that he is God. This proclamation by the Antichrist will likely create a huge rebellion among the Jews and the rest of the world. Some will accept him but many will not. Those that do not worship the Antichrist will be persecuted and slaughtered. The Bible refers to time as the Great Tribulation. Lets read how Isaiah described temple worship which will lead up to the 'abomination that causes desolation' and the time of Great Tribulation.


But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations; so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread. For when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, no one listened. They did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said, 'Let Yahweh be glorified, that we may see your joy!' Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of Yahweh repaying his enemies all they deserve (Isaiah 66:3-6).


Israel will be at peace under the covenant which will be confirmed by the Antichrist. The Jews will be practicing temple worship again after almost 2,000 years. However, God is not pleased with temple worship at this time, most likely because Christ has already come and fulfilled the need for temple worship.


Next, the Antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrifice and offering and set himself up declaring that he is God. This abomination by the Antichrist will cause a riot in the temple and an uproar in the city, leading to its desolation. This event will initiate a time of unprecedented persecution and slaughter - the Great Tribulation.


Accepting Scripture at face value and interpreting prophecy as it has always been fulfilled, means that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt before Christ returns.


Richard Perry


February 19, 2007. http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/will...be_rebuilt.htm





We've already been over this... As you are disseminating the Bible here, then are we not to be using what the Bible actually says about the matter? There is NO contradiction, as previously stated the Bible does not disagree with the fact that Isaac was not the only son, and Ishmael was indeed the first born. However... It is also clear that Isaac was the child of promise and referred to as the ONLY SON.. As he was the only son of Abraham and his wife Sarah.... And it was the child of THIS union that was preordained by God as the child of the covenant promise. You've already seen the relevant verses attesting to this fact. The Bible also clearly states that Ishmael was blessed by God... Blessed is not the same as being chosen to carry on the covenant.

As for your claims I highlighted...why would the Jews wish to switch the name of Ishmael for Isaac? The Quran does not say the names were switched... In fact, it does not mention by name at all, thus leaving you and others to fill in the "blanks" and rewriting things that do not suit your purpose.... And probably.. !! Well, that simply supposition on your part with no proof to back it up.



As I said the issue of the Temple was mentioned in other books apart from Chronicles.. And I don't know enough about Kabbalist's to comment on your source... Other than Rabbi Simon Ben Yohai I believe was of that persuasion.

I will mention ... I believe you are in error taking Isaiah 21:7 as in any way prophetic. The context of the passage is a reference to the fall of Babylon. Isaiah 21:9 says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon.” This passage actually has nothing to do with either Mohammed or Jesus... The references to horsemen, donkeys, and camels, just refer to the means by which the news of Babylon’s fall was spread. You can read whatever you like into the text, but sometimes it's simpler to read the words in the context they were placed with an open mind and things could just fall into place and make sense. Or you can just do what you do.... Which is you are at liberty to do. It doesn't change anything.

May I ask a question of you please? Why are you so determined to try and prove Christianity is false?

Peace unto you

Actually the fact that you did not answer shows me and the readers that either you do not have an answer !!! that is the basic reality of the situation Pandora

Yet even though I answered all questions addressed to me I am now being accused of not answering in the same response where you yourself admitted to ignoring my responses . What an Irony ????!!!!

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There are other Bible passages that refer to the Temple Mount..
Temple Mount

After Moses led Israel out of Egyptian slavery, the Israelis erected a tent (Exodus 38:21-31). They placed the arc of the covenant inside the tent; the arc was God’s dwelling place on earth. Centuries later Israel moved the arc into the First Temple on the Temple Mount. This First Temple was an initiative of King David (2 Samuel 7:2). His son, King Solomon, actually built the Temple (1 Kings 6:1). Construction took seven years; the labor force was 30,000 men (1 Kings 5:13; 2 Chronicles 2:2). Outside the Temple, Israel sacrificed lambs to atone for sin.


Jerusalem, with its Temple Mount, fell to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 586 BC (Jeremiah 39:1). Babylon took the nation of Israel captive. In 539 BC, Darius the Mede overthrew the conquering Babylonians and imposed the Medo-Persia Empire (Daniel 5:30-31). The following year Cyrus, King of Persia, released a large number of Israelis and instructed those returning to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-3). In 515 BC, the Temple was rebuilt; this second building on Mount Moriah became known as the Second Temple (Ezra 6:15).


Joseph and Mary dedicated Jesus at this Second Temple (Luke 2:27). This also is where Jesus’ searching parents found him teaching as a young man (Luke 2:41-50). Jesus forcefully cleared profiteering merchants from this Temple (John 2:13-16). Jesus and Apostles preached at the Temple (John 2:13-16; Acts 3:1-10). When Jesus died, the curtain (veil) inside the Temple that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place tore from top to bottom (Exodus 26:33; Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). This tearing signified that man now had unimpeded access to God.


Because Israel rejected its Messiah, Jesus foretold this Temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). This occurred when Israel fell to the Roman Army in 70 AD. With the Islamic capture of Jerusalem centuries later, the Dome of the Rock shrine and the Al Aqsa Mosque were built on the Temple Mount. The most visible building on the Temple Mount today is the Dome of the Rock, which is built over a “sacred” rock. Islam understands that on God’s holy mountain, this Temple Mount, that a rock should be honored. Unfortunately Islam is blinded to the real Rock—Jesus himself (Isaiah 26:4).


- See more at:

http://bible-prophecy.co/home/temple....QcbDFkQ0.dpuf

None and I repeat none of these passages actually states the name moriah

All these mentions a place without the name and christians and Jews just assumed were Moriah based on their understanding

So the land was still mentioned once in genesis without location with a contradiction

unfortunatlly the samaritans differ on the location , since they do not believe in the first and second books of chronicles so they claim that the actual mountain is the mountain Jerzeem not the current location of the Mosque.

As for your claim that blessed does not mean chosen , I have already addressed this and shown otherwise in the response which you said was unsatisfactory !!! (this shows me that you did not actually read my response )

AS for the only son again , the text said take your only son not your only chosen son !!!! the text is clear here .

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Genesis 22: 2

This was before the test before god even revealed that his son was chosen so how could god say take your only chosen son !!!!! especially that Abraham thought at that time that he would be sacrificing his son !!! It does not make anysense : take your only chosen son to sacrifice as a sign of him being chosen !!!!

This interpritation is twisted in order to explain this clear contradiction

The quran never mentioned the name but the Hadeeth did , to negelect one and take the other is forbidden and unaccepted in the Quran itself

God said :

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Quran 59: 7

As for Isaiah 21 it concerns three prophecies:

1. The burdon of the desert of the sea
2. The burdon on Durah
3. The burdon on Arabia

These prophecies describe different events about the area , one is the fall of Babylon , second the coming of the messiah as shown by the riders of charriots of asses and the coming of the arabian prophet as the riders of Camels

What you mentioned about 21:7 is part of the burdon of the desert of the sea which describe the fall of babylon


To answer your final question :

This is an islamic - christian debate blogg , everybody presents and debates to prove a point. You and burninglight are debating to prove your point of christianity and we muslims are debating to prove our point , thats how debate bloggs work !!!! why do you think we are participating then !!!!


reminder

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First god blessed Abraham and told him he would be a great nation :

Now The Lord said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.

And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing

. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves." (Genesis 12:1-3 RSV)

So Abraham's blessing and greatness comes from his decendents by blessing Abraham and blessing themselves (this is what muslims say five times a day during prayer : the prayer goes like this God bless Muhammed and his family as you have blessed Abraham and his family .....)

So a great nation blesses Abaraham , also they :

6 Observe them carefully, for thus will

you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations

, who will hear of all these statutes and say,

'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god and glorifies Abraham and blesses him which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis


Going to see how this applies to Ishmael from what you said :

"But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)

Also :

Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:19-20 RSV).

It is not me who is nitpicking from the bible , you need to read the passage carefully and compare it together

The same phrase used by god to Abraham is used to Ishmael .

Also

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Concerning

the only son

Isaac or Ishmael i' invite you to read this :

Abraham: One God, Three Wives, Five Religions

Frances Worthington
page : 113

http://books.google.it/books?id=LVUw... becca&f=false

@

Pandora : are you the Burninglight's spokeswoman

????

about the Moriah ' s land the exact location is doubtful ---

unknown location

---

about "Temple Mount" ; sorry I do not believe in the existence of any temple in this blessed land ( Jerusalem )