Quote
Quote Originally Posted by محمد سني 1989 View Post
First : Your argument that ishmael was not a prophet is that if he was the jews and christians would accept it !!!!!
This argument is twisted since the jews can also use it concerning Jesus. My friend this argument will not help you at all.
So this does not explain the blessinggs in Genesis :

Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”


A great nation as defined by the bible:

6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
, who will hear of all these statutes and say,
'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

Second :

Matthew 21: 43 Cannot be talking about the gentiles because Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel :

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15: 24


The passage here is clear Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel so the context of Matthew 21: 43 cannot be talking about the gentiles


Third : what you said here :

As I mentioned, Brethren can refer to the Israelites themselves, because God used the same phrase later on to be referring to someone from their own brethren of the Israelites. God could have said from them and not their brethren but that is not the way the written put it in the Bible

How could god say them bretheren !!!! it would not make anysense rather he said their (the israelites ) bretheren , and you are right this is what the biblical writers wrote so asking why did they not put them should be addressed to them. The context is clear god talks to the israelites that from their brothers reffering to the brothers of all israelites since the text used their so it cannot mean the israelites

The simmilarities between prophet Muhammed and Moses:

1. Both came with laws
2. Both of normal birthnot virgin
3. Both led migrations and physical salvations
4.Both ruled their nations
5. Both engaged in military actions
6. Both were raised away from their parents
7.Both married and had children
8.Both immigrated in adulthood
9.Both had a a spiritual and legal teachings instead of spiritual only
10. Both had normal deaths while Jesus according to Christian was killied
11. Both of their revelations were written down during their lifetimes

As for your claim of turning water to wine , well that is debatable but wine is not blood , Moses split the sea but Jesus did not , if you are going to claim that they both had miracles concerning water in general well I could also put this :

Anas b. Malik reported:

I saw Allah's Messenger () during the time of the afternoon prayer and the people asking for water for performing ablution which they did not find. (A small quantity) of water was brought to Allah's Messenger () and he placed his hand in that vessel and commanded people to perform ablution. I saw water spouting from his fingers and the people performing ablution until the last amongst them performed it.



Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5657



Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.

Saheeh Muslim Book 30, Hadith 5656

I do not think generalities here will help you , we are looking at specific simmilarities of their lives. Generalities in such a way do not just show simmilarities between the three figures : Moses, Jesus and Mohammed peace be upon them rather with all other people. It is like comparing Noa to Moses because they both had something supernatural with water!!!!! You need specifics

Where in the new testement did Jesus speak to god directly like the way Moses did in Mount Sania . This was not shown in the NT

All what christians are doing is taking certain passages in the NT and apply it as direct contact with god , like the passages when a certain voice was heard from the cloud!!!! these passages show no dialougue or contact as god did with Moses because all the deciples heard it , there was no dialogue or a confrontation with god as Moses did with the burning bush !!! (review Matthew 17)

However this itself should not be considered a simmilarity since a jew can argue that Adam has direct contact with God in the garden, or Jacob wresseled with god (according to christian belief) and talked to him , Ezikiel with the chariot of God (according to jewish and christian belief)!!!

However it is important to note that not all revelations revealed to the prophet was by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him rather revelations sometimes were revealed to the prophet directly from god :

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Messenger () "O Allah's Messenger ()! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Messenger () replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet () being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

Saheeh Al Bukhari vol 1, Book 1 , hadeeth 2



Another similarity ( from a christian view)
12.Both were human and not divine (according to christians jesus was divine)

There is a lot but I think this would be enough

As for the prophethood of a decendent of ishmael I already answered above


The blessing of ishmael :

Genesis (17:20):” As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.”

A great nation as defined by the bible:
6 Observe them carefully, for thus will
you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations
, who will hear of all these statutes and say,
'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'
7 For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?
8 Or what great nation has statutes and decrees that are as just as this whole law which I am setting before you today?”
Deutronomy 4: 6-8

So a great nation in the bible is one which worships god alone and has the law of god which applies to the arabs in the prophecy of genesis

This is the second time you ignore this part
You also ignored the part about Isaiah
You also ignored what has written in John 1: 19-21

Note: Also for the second time I am not talking about the prophet hood of ishmael rather the prophet from his decendent , mainly : can Ishmael's decendents have a prophet ???
You said, "I didn't address John 1: 19-21" but look at the rest of the verse in context:
19 And this is the (AO)testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you (AS)the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am (AT)the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[g] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, (AU)“Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, (AV)“I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Behold, the Lamb of God

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.” Not all Jews deny Jesus was a prophet and he did come for the house of Israel but they rejected him and Jesus gave parables that demonstrate that God has opened the door for all to receive Him as the gift of God.
BTW, can I ask how long have you been Muslim? Were you born into it? I have never confronted a Muslim as tenacious as you. I do respect your zeal. What about Isaiah? I didn't see the verse you speak of

Peace