the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

[pandora]

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In whole honesty , that makes about as much sense as a banana riding a tricycle . Further more , Quran answers you :

29:48 And you did not recite before it any scripture, nor did you inscribe one with your right hand. Otherwise the falsifiers would have had [cause for] doubt.

Really? Though I like your analogy banana.... Bicycle.. Personally for someone to deal with another's business transactions I would have thought being literate .. Even at a basic level would have made things easier. However, as much business at that time would likely have been through word of mouth and one could employ a scribe to do the necessary then I accept you can make allowances accordingly. I guess as long as you have absolute trust in your chosen scribes to record exactly what you say then no problemo..

So are you saying Allah ensured that prophet Mohammed remained illiterate so he wouldn't be accused of falsifying accounts ? Of what???? Reading the words it seems to say Mohammed did not read any scripture (so no possibility of plagiarism).. Nor did he write anything himself..by his own hand. Otherwise unbelievers? May doubt him or doubt the message? That's not clear. Surely if Allah had doubts on such a scale then he would have chosen another prophet. Besides the verse is giving an excuse why prophet Mohammed was illiterate.. It is not proof of the authenticity of his revelation. As many did doubt in his revelation and credentials as a prophet... Then I don't see what this verse is excusing or explaining.

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Am I seeing hints of the claim that Islam forbids knowledge ? And for the record , it doesn't require a genius to know that you don't necessarily need to read and write in order to attain knowledge . There are other ways to do so than books . Of course I'm not saying you shouldn't learn reading and writing but I thought you had the basic Islamic knowledge of why the prophet peace upon him was illiterate . Oh , and here's a video as a gift of Ahmad Deedat :

You really should not be so quick to read hints where there are none. I don't believe Islam in any way forbids education or in any way hinders the pursuit of knowledge. However, I do feel SOME muslims do, which has the unfortunate effect of giving the impression to non muslims who have not taken the time to study Islam.. That Islam does not promote knowledge.


I don't watch videos. Don't see they bring anything useful or better than the written word can.

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Seeing how there's a science with the same name to know every single person in the chain of narrations all the way to the prophet peace upon him , I'd say that it's this science based on what Allah taught in Quran .

Interesting.

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Oooooh ! NOW it's ok to make the claim that the texts were corrutped and altered !?

Oooooh ! What's the problem? You enjoy inferring the same for the scriptures that others hold in the highest esteem from their Holy God. Why should you object when the same question is levelled at yourselves? Besides with so many hadiths and authors can you be absolutely sure of your claims? Personally, it doesn't overly concern me, the revelation being transmitted perfectly is not proof that it's from YHWH. I have to admit that the more I see and hear.. I have sometimes cause to doubt we are actually talking about the same One True God. I have YHWH of the Bible who was worshipped by all the prophets and revealed in Jesus. You have Allah, maybe you can convince me we are actually talking of the same One True God.

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Unfortuenately , this post of yours seems to be completely based on hypothesis based on nothing in addition to conclusions which ignore the remaining "possibilities" . Also , Quran answers you in this one as well :

27:14 And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters.

Not sure what you mean here.

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The context may be about Moses peace upon him but the point remains . And don't forget I can make the same claim about Christianity or any other religion since "there must be a reason not everyone became (X)" .

P.S : I swear if I keep hearing the flawed logic of "I came first ! I'm right !" ...

Again... Not sure what you mean. Obviously God calls people in different ways.. It has nothing to be with being first ...God is not contained in any religion. It's about mankind's eternal state.. I see through Christianity God reaching mankind and giving us the means to make ourselves righteous so we can share in His divine love and Glory for eternity. Islam seems more like mankind's struggle to find God in the hope of achieving righteousness. I accept I am a sinner and cannot reach the level of righteousness by my efforts.. Ergo.. God in His wisdom and mercy gives me a saviour in Christ Jesus. You accept you are a sinner but may feel you can do something yourself in the hope you may mitigate any possible punishments. I feel this does not give God the highest importance in terms of holiness... And sorry... But I see much uncertainty there. However... We both rely on Gods grace. Each to their own.

Peace.

[محمد سني 1989]

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So are you saying Allah ensured that prophet Mohammed remained illiterate so he wouldn't be accused of falsifying accounts ? Of what???? Reading the words it seems to say Mohammed did not read any scripture (so no possibility of plagiarism).. Nor did he write anything himself..by his own hand. Otherwise unbelievers? May doubt him or doubt the message? That's not clear. Surely if Allah had doubts on such a scale then he would have chosen another prophet. Besides the verse is giving an excuse why prophet Mohammed was illiterate.. It is not proof of the authenticity of his revelation. As many did doubt in his revelation and credentials as a prophet... Then I don't see what this verse is excusing or explaining.




Peace.

ًWith all do respect this was the only response I saw worthy to respond to:
First : your scriptures are considered corrupt by us so we do not believe in it entirely
Second : The arabian society were illiterate at the time of the prophet, There only method of transporting news or announcing anything was threw poetry and arabic speeches , these were most of the times how tribes annouced. comminicated, declared, and even sometimes competed with each other
Third : the verse was a response to the meccans who accused the prophet of writting these revelations and reading them from other scriptures , So the quran responded to such nonsense by stating the fact which they already knew that he was illeterate , so there was no way that he could have read other scriptures and wrote it down
Fourth : I don't think we can question god about what he should or should not have done. God could have chosen an egyptian as a prophet to Pharoh instead of a man from a nation of slaves at that time, God could just chosen David before Saul, God could have made the israelites enter the holy land under moses peace be upon him instead of Joshua peace be upon him
Fifth : We do not worship Jesus peace be upon him or the holy ghost they are both created by God . The fact that you believe in trinity makes you DIVERGENT FROM THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT , JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM AND THE QURAN

TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels

[Burninglight]

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[SIZE=5]TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels

Trinity is mentioned mostly by Muslims; the only reason we talk about the trinity is because you and other Muslims are fixated on it. It is not mentioned in the Bible as a term we are suppose to teach on, because the essence of God is past finding out for anyone.
Can you explain what the perfect oneness of God is. You cannot explain it anymore than we can God's tri unity. So why to you waste your time and ours on the topic of trinity when we believe God is one as well?

[محمد سني 1989]

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Trinity is mentioned mostly by Muslims; the only reason we talk about the trinity is because you and other Muslims are fixated on it. It is not mentioned in the Bible as a term we are suppose to teach on, because the essence of God is past finding out for anyone.
Can you explain what the perfect oneness of God is. You cannot explain it anymore than we can God's tri unity. So why to you waste your time and ours on the topic of trinity when we believe God is one as well?

Now you are trying to marginilize the most important principle in christianity , a principle that was actually the most important element and core belief out of the council of Nicea !!!!!


This was the subject of debate not just with muslims but also with jews and other old christian sects

[Burninglight]

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Now you are trying to marginilize the most important principle in christianity , a principle that was actually the most important element and core belief out of the council of Nicea !!!!!


This was the subject of debate not just with muslims but also with jews and other old christian sects

That is not the most important principal of Christianity. The death of Christ, His shed blood for our sin, and His resurrection from the dead are the most important principles along with salvation by God's grace through faith. This is the gift from God that we can only access by believing Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and the son of God who gave Himself for our redemption, and that there is no other way to receive eternal life, paradise or heaven. Without believing and accepting this gospel people will die in their sin unless they believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him as Jesus Himself said!
As for the trinity, the Bible doesn't tell us that we should teach on it. God has personally shown me He is a trinity by bearing witness with my spirit, but that wasn't something I was told to teach or try to figure out with my own understanding. All Christians know is that in the beginning was the word who was with God and was God, Jn. 1. And we know that God is Spirit and He is Holy. The Holy Spirit is God. No Christian can explain how God's Word and Holiness could be one and yet distinct persons of God's tri-unity. It is a waste of time debating this. As I mentioned, you cannot explain God's oneness anymore than I can explain the trinity. The other point I tried to make is that Muslims bring up the trinity more than Christians to argue against Christianity, but this tragedy fails miserably. Basically, your write up on the trinity took us no where, and in my opinion, as a once JW that you were, you went from the fryer into the fire. Finally, your write up is puffed up head knowledge that profits you nothing spiritually or anyone else in the things of God. I tell you in love and truth the way God shows it to me.

Peace.

[محمد سني 1989]

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That is not the most important principal of Christianity. The death of Christ, His shed blood for our sin, and His resurrection from the dead are the most important principles along with salvation by God's grace through faith. This is the gift from God that we can only access by believing Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and the son of God who gave Himself for our redemption, and that there is no other way to receive eternal life, paradise or heaven. Without believing and accepting this gospel people will die in their sin unless they believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him as Jesus Himself said!
As for the trinity, the Bible doesn't tell us that we should teach on it. God has personally shown me He is a trinity by bearing witness with my spirit, but that wasn't something I was told to teach or try to figure out with my own understanding. All Christians know is that in the beginning was the word who was with God and was God, Jn. 1. And we know that God is Spirit and He is Holy. The Holy Spirit is God. No Christian can explain how God's Word and Holiness could be one and yet distinct persons of God's tri-unity. It is a waste of time debating this. As I mentioned, you cannot explain God's oneness anymore than I can explain the trinity. The other point I tried to make is that Muslims bring up the trinity more than Christians to argue against Christianity, but this tragedy fails miserably. Basically, your write up on the trinity took us no where, and in my opinion, as a once JW that you were, you went from the fryer into the fire. Finally, your write up is puffed up head knowledge that profits you nothing spiritually or anyone else in the things of God. I tell you in love and truth the way God shows it to me.

Peace.

Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

​peace

[Burninglight]

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Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

peace

That is not true. In the beginning was the Word. The word was with God and the word was God. Think about that. Jesus is the word of God incarnate. Even the Quran says He is a word from Allah. If he didn't come in flesh and blood, what did He come in? The Bible states that God is Spirit and we know He is Holy. Jesus said, I will go, but the Holy Spirit will come. Moreover, when disciples of Jesus lied to the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts, the disciples said to the ones that lied. "You have lied to God" They dropped dead on the spot. The spirit of God descended on Jesus at His baptism. Jesus said go and baptize in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. There is lots of evidence of God's tri unity. But explain God's oneness now.

[Burninglight]

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Ignoring the marginalities in your response. You said that nobody can explain the trinity of god and it is a waste of time to debate about it well that is my point you cannot debate and explain it because it does not exist , it is simply not there in the OT and the NT it has been added almost 300 years later which you still did not answer.
BTW John 1 in greek manuscripts does not say and the word was god rather it says and the word was divine meaning from the begining

​peace

Definition of divine (adj)

Dictionary
di·vine
[ di vī́n ]
1.having godlike nature: being God or a god or goddess
2.relating to God, gods, or goddesses: connected with, coming from, or caused by God or a god or goddess
3.connected with worship: relating to the worship or service of God or a god or goddess

synonyms: heavenly · celestial · godly · deific · godlike

It means God, even God calls Jesus "God" Heb. 1. Twist it all you like, but know that it doesn't convince Christians who know Jesus, and it is only to the peril of you soul that you try to make our Scripture say what you want to be is true about Islam..

Peace

[Burninglight]

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ً
[SIZE=5]First : your scriptures are considered corrupt by us so we do not believe in it entirely

Your Scriptures are corrupted to us as well; so, are we to believe God wouldn't preserve His torah and gospel so he could bring a message to confirm that actually contradicts the torah and gospel we now have? Are we to accept Biblical corruption when no Muslim can say when and where this corruption took place, by whom and what was the motive was? We can tell you when the Quran was burned and by whom; we can tell you that Uthman used the help of text to recompile the destroyed Qurans, and afterwards, the text Uthman used to recompile the Quran was destroyed; so, how do you figure that is perfect preservation of the Quran? IMHO, this logic is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I cannot do it, because my spirit, soul, mind and better judgment will not let me. I cannot throw godly wisdom, human logic and reason out the window.

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ً
[SIZE=5]Second : The arabian society were illiterate at the time of the prophet, There only method of transporting news or announcing anything was threw poetry and arabic speeches , these were most of the times how tribes annouced. comminicated, declared, and even sometimes competed with each other

The point is communication happened and news spread faster than you think. It cannot be ruled out that Islam's prophet heard the virgin birth story that was already in print before his birth. Monotheism, Heaven and hell, and the virgin birth of Jesus was already known before your prophet's birth; so, nothing new was brought to Christianity other than what we already knew.

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ً
[SIZE=5]Third : the verse was a response to the meccans who accused the prophet of writting these revelations and reading them from other scriptures , So the quran responded to such nonsense by stating the fact which they already knew that he was illeterate , so there was no way that he could have read other scriptures and wrote it down

You say nonsense, but that is your opinion. The virgin birth story of Jesus is only found in the NT Bible. Had Islam's prophet said Jesus was not born of a virgin, he could've have had a stronger argument that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but now Muslims have to deal with why Jesus was born in an unconventional human manner. There is a reason for it, and the source of the virgin birth story has the reason that will burn through the souls of those who reject it. You spirit must know this and yet you resist. Why???

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ً
[SIZE=5]Fourth : I don't think we can question god about what he should or should not have done. God could have chosen an egyptian as a prophet to Pharoh instead of a man from a nation of slaves at that time, God could just chosen David before Saul, God could have made the israelites enter the holy land under moses peace be upon him instead of Joshua peace be upon him

You are correct, but we can question the Quran and the source of it, because we are commanded by God the test very spirit and not believe them all. Islam doesn't pass the test for the Jew or born again Biblical Christian. There is a reason for that, but you don't know or understand why.

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ً
Fifth : We do not worship Jesus peace be upon him or the holy ghost they are both created by God . The fact that you believe in trinity makes you DIVERGENT FROM THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT , JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM AND THE QURAN

TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels

You don't worship Jesus because you don't know who He is. We do, and we know that Jesus healed everyone He came in contact with and people worshipped Him when He forgave sin and healed the lame and the blind. Jesus never stopped them from worshipping Him. God doesn't allow anyone other than himself to share His glory. Jesus said, you will die in sin unless you believe I am He. We believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him. good luck trying to get to god by human effort and understanding because it has already been condemned by God. You can say that is a corruption in the Bible but I

[محمد سني 1989]

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Your Scriptures are corrupted to us as well; so, are we to believe God wouldn't preserve His torah and gospel so he could bring a message to confirm that actually contradicts the torah and gospel we now have? Are we to accept Biblical corruption when no Muslim can say when and where this corruption took place, by whom and what was the motive was? We can tell you when the Quran was burned and by whom; we can tell you that Uthman used the help of text to recompile the destroyed Qurans, and afterwards, the text Uthman used to recompile the Quran was destroyed; so, how do you figure that is perfect preservation of the Quran? IMHO, this logic is to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. I cannot do it, because my spirit, soul, mind and better judgment will not let me. I cannot throw godly wisdom, human logic and reason out the window.

The point is communication happened and news spread faster than you think. It cannot be ruled out that Islam's prophet heard the virgin birth story that was already in print before his birth. Monotheism, Heaven and hell, and the virgin birth of Jesus was already known before your prophet's birth; so, nothing new was brought to Christianity other than what we already knew.

You say nonsense, but that is your opinion. The virgin birth story of Jesus is only found in the NT Bible. Had Islam's prophet said Jesus was not born of a virgin, he could've have had a stronger argument that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but now Muslims have to deal with why Jesus was born in an unconventional human manner. There is a reason for it, and the source of the virgin birth story has the reason that will burn through the souls of those who reject it. You spirit must know this and yet you resist. Why???
You are correct, but we can question the Quran and the source of it, because we are commanded by God the test very spirit and not believe them all. Islam doesn't pass the test for the Jew or born again Biblical Christian. There is a reason for that, but you don't know or understand why.
You don't worship Jesus because you don't know who He is. We do, and we know that Jesus healed everyone He came in contact with and people worshipped Him when He forgave sin and healed the lame and the blind. Jesus never stopped them from worshipping Him. God doesn't allow anyone other than himself to share His glory. Jesus said, you will die in sin unless you believe I am He. We believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him. good luck trying to get to god by human effort and understanding because it has already been condemned by God. You can say that is a corruption in the Bible but I

First I already showed you examples of the corruption of the bible . As for the Quran we already had this debate and I showed you how wrong you were . Yet you did not answer and chose to ignore and repeat again. Here review response number 17 : http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t200432-2.html
This response within my dialogue with pandora . If you were to ask me to prove that jesus is not god and I quoted the Quran would you believe, you would say no because it is not your resource , this is what Pandora and you are doing , your logic is for me to accept the bible no matter what whther I am christian or not and accept even though it was manipulated this is a twisted "I do not believe in common sense" logic.

Second heaven , hell , and monotheism was already know before the birth of Jesus . so I could apply the same argument but at least jews do not belief in the concept of the father , the son , the holy spirit and so do muslims .

Third believe me islam passes the test successfully unlike your bible , why is it till now you could not prove that the bible was not manipulated !!!! As for the virgin birth well the virgin birth was known to other sects of christians also using different gospels however , We never claimed that the gospels were replaced fully rather we say they were manipulated meaning altered . In the english language this means changing sentences , adding and removing passages and so on .

Fourth thats right we do not worship jesus we worship the god of jesus which jesus preached for.

None of your responses has to do with my discussion nor does it relate to the sections which you quoted , try having an actual answer instead of cherry picking and stating and trying to sweet talk your own beliefs

peace