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What context is this message received please? I ask in case I have read this wrong in the Quran or misunderstood the occasion.
Wait what ? I didn't understand you properly .
Never mind .
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Well, you have proof or no.. If you have show it if not don't say you have. Or were you not meaning to imply you had proof? I have come to the conclusion that there is no proof so I'm not doing any breath holding exercise awaiting the outcome. All I have been doing is trying to explain my faith which is nothing like how you perceive it to be. Funny.... How "proof" seems to be the requirement for Christians to produce on demand.. Explanations for a personal perspective not being good enough.. Yet you (by you.. I mean in collective terms not personal) see it ok to present YOUR understanding of our faith and expect us to accept that without a qualm!!! Why is it so hard to accept that when it comes to Christianity you may not know as much as a Christian? That's what concerns me.. Muslims reject Christianity as false based on misconceptions and untruths.. So you do not know what it is you reject. I've said it before.. It's a gift freely given and reject it as you will .. But first understand what it is you reject.
Look , it isn't a necessity that each and every single person knows how to present proof properly . We don't know how to prove ourselves that gravity has a force of 9.(something) but we are convinced with what we already saw of evidence presented by experts . That's the case for me at least .
As for our belief , it's a belief as you can tell . And when we're convinced with the evidence that Islam is right , we believe whatever it tells . And while you ask for proof of the people of the book altering the messages , I can simply ask you proof of the miracles Christ performed . So what's the point arguing about that ?
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Yes.. When it comes to salvation our deeds are not counted as rewards or penalties. We are saved by grace alone. Which does not mean good deeds are not an important part of our faith.. They are.. But we do them out of love of God. There is a danger of good deeds being a source of pride, which is a sin.
I see . Agreed .
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I'm not aware of this change of tone. I guess it's a cause for some sadness to me that despite explaining my faith as I see it muslims still seek to impose their misconceptions about my faith
What misconceptions ? I'm just stating what Islam says about the people of the book . You ask "Why don't you believe in the Bible" ? And I say "Because I don't believe it's the original one" . I'm not saying "You shouldn't believe that this is the original Bible as a Christian" . It's a no brainer that you can't be a Christian and say such a thing ! Ironically , that's the same thing you've been trying to impose on us saying that Islam doesn't state the people of the book were entrusted with the message and they altered it .
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Maybe a poor choice of words here... Which for a wordsmith like yours truly is a bit of a faux pas
Not really , I have my problems with spelling :) .
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For the record every time you refer to Jesus as "Son of Mary" it is an insult upon His person and one for a Christian is hard to hear. I know you do not see this, and indeed why should you? But.. According to our belief we would never ever refer to Jesus in this manner. I think I have already explained why on another thread somewhere at some time.
You did explain and I did tell you we'll refrain from using that title when discussing with you and refer to him as Christ or any other name .
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Makes no difference weather it's the whole or part.. If one bit you think is corrupted then the whole work is suspect. How can you trust that the bits in the Quran were not changed.. Just by being in the Quran?
Because I believe in the Quran being from Allah and is the final message . Why do I believe that ? I see evidence and proof for it ? What is that ? That would require a whole debate .
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so if the original (we refer to them as autographs) are no longer in existence due to age and the fragility of the materials used does that automatically mean that the copies made were not accurate? How to prove that?
Apparently , I wasn't clear . They say that the original text itself , copy or not , was lost . Anyway , this is all based on my humble knowledge . I said I'll look further into it .
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Kid you not... The Gospels and the Torah as we have them today were in widespread use hundreds of years before Prophet Mohammed. Are you saying there were no Arabic speaking Jews or Christians at that time in Arabia? How on earth did they trade and interact? Besides which given that committing scripture to writing was long and laborious work it was for the most part transmitted orally. As was I believe the Quran.
For the written scripture to be in Arabic , not really , as for Jews and Christians speaking Arabic , fair enough . Still , it doesn't mean he took Islam from them .
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I never once said anyone was teaching prophet Mohammed or feeding him information.. I simply said the possibility that he heard stories from Jews and Christians that he could have met... And we know for sure he did meet both Jews and Christians on occasions. So I'm just saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility. Islam was quoted from a spirit believed to be Gabriel was it not? I never have heard that Prophet Mohammed received his revelation any other way. The Bible says it was Gabriel that brought the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.. So I have some issues with the same angel bringing a different message 600 years later. As Angels.. At least those that form the heavenly host, do not lie and act according to Gods will.
Discussing the matter of quoting would require a separate time for itself . But I don't think it needs another thread . If you want , we can return to it later after clearing the rest up . As for the revelation , it is revealed to the prophet peace upon him through many methods :
1 - Visions .
2 - Jibreel arriving in the form of a man .
3 - In his real form .
4 - Allah talks to him directly from behind a veil .
5 - The revelation arrives like the ringing of the bell .
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where did I make this claim that he was taught anything by anyone??? I raised the point that as prophet Mohammed had contact with both Christians and Jews during his life... Possibly before during or after his revelation.. Makes no difference when. It can't be ruled out that accounts in the Quran that have roots in Jewish writings but not in scripture could have had some influence. I'm not saying it was so... Just that if the possibility exists it can't be ruled out totally. This is not an issue for you.. But I hope you can understand why it raises questions for Christians and Jews.
Now I see . We can discuss this here later .
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Originally Posted by نصير الدين
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