Love for the Prophet is a Condition of Faith

[نصير الدين]

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That's not clear from the text...but I'll take your word for it.

And you need a text after this ?! :

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53:1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

The message came with prophet Muhammad peace upon him , but it's a given that the message is from Allah .

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God in the Bible is unchanging, all knowing and just. I accept what you say about choices made for certain people at certain times and places. However.. God in the Bible never changes His mind to suit an individual person.

Is is just me or are you hinting at something ?

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Maybe this is not the time or place.. But where were you with your proof on the other thread on this topic?

Other thread ? If I remember correctly , I said I'm not an expert and that's why I leave it to someone who knows better . All I've been doing this whole time is explain our belief . And time after time , I've been saying that presenting one's belief is different from discussing proof of it .

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Because it's truth... ;)

Based on your own words , your truth is someone else's falsehood .

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This is your belief.

Which I've een saying for nearly two months !

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The Bible teaches that it is by grace we are saved and our good deeds are nothing but dirty rags before a Holy God. In other words we cannot save ourselves by our own efforts.. We know our limitations and our shortcomings. Our good deeds have to be born from love and a desire to please God. Not for any book of gains and losses.

Am I misunderstanding or are you saying deeds are meaningless and all that you should have is "love" ? Indeed , Islam teaches us that one's work isn't enough , but it is the mercy and justice of Allah :

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
There is none whose deeds alone can'secure salvation for him. They said: Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that, the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me.

And for the record , that was before the revelation that the prophet peace upon him would enter paradise . Just to clear things up .

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Believe me you do not come anywhere near touching a nerve. Nothing you say to denigrate my faith causes a ripple of discomfort upon my person.

Then why the sudden change of tone each time I mention OUR belief about the people of book ?

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the only thing you could say I am a tad sensitive about is your disrespect towards Jesus

Come again ? Where did I show disrespect toward a prophet of Allah ?

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In regards to your above suras.. Then you read them again and pray tell where does it state the WHOLE of the written Torah was changed but what some Jews interpreted for their own ends.

And WHO on Earth told you that the WHOLE message was altered ? I said a number of times that we believe there is remaining truth that hasn't been altered . That includes what agrees with Islam . And again , that's our belief .

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Bedsides if you know the history of the Torah you would know that any changes any one person made would soon be discovered by another with a manuscript in their possession. As Christians also held there own copies of the scriptures do you think they would have stood silently by and said nought if they saw evidence of Jews changing the meaning of the text.

I did say I'll leave it to someone who knows better but I'll just provide my opinion since you dived into the subject . Based on my humble knowledge , there are pastors - and whatever other ranks there are - who admit the original scripture is lost . The reason is the method of narrating the Bible which doesn't match with what you wrote . So , I'll read further into it .

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Yes, in Arabic

You gotta be kidding me . Do you realize that the movement of translation to Arabic hasn't begun until centuries after the prophet peace upon him ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_Movement

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I don't know much about Hadith .. As in what is considered authentic etc. I think I am correct in saying that Bukhari is considered reliable.. You may correct me if I assume wrongly.

Bukhari is the most accurate and is the most truthful of the books after the book of Allah . Still , there's a number of weak narrations in it . It isn't authnetic because it's Bukhari , it's authnetic because it's the most authnetic .

As for teh narration , I did tell you that this man "Waraqah" passed away shortly after the revelation . Islam was revealed on the span of 23 years . And let's not forget that the life of the prophet peace upon him after the revelation is recorded in details . Pagans made the claim he is taught so by someone , but they could never back their empty claims up or tell who this imaginary person telling him things is . Further more , isn't it strange that someone teaches him and then remains silent when he claims he recieves revelation ? That , along with so many other paradoxes deny the possibility that Islam quoted from someone . The reasons for similarities is that they are facts which haven't been altered or hid . It's unreasonable to think that Islam should differ 100% from other religions to say it's from the almighty , especially when it states that they are revelations as well .

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I'm not saying prophet Mohammed added things he heard from other sources.. But I am saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility

I already provided reasons as to why this is indeed ruled out .

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And when non muslims see things in the Quran that has been long understood to be from the minds of men handed down as folklore and never been part of scripture then should that not raise in our minds a valid questioning. Of why Allah would include such in the Quran.

Maybe it's indeed from the original scripture but the people of the book hid it , like talking in craddle and creating birds from clay with the will of Allah . You shouldn't rule it out as a possibility , right ? Again , that's our belief .

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23 years, a short time indeed for a final revelation when YHWH had spent 1500 + perfecting His biblical message through the scriptures that came before.

Wait what ? The point was it is impossible for Waraqah to have "taught" the prophet this religion . Or maybe you say he talked to him from teh grave ?

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But your replies were bordering on the personal and that's why I mentioned it.. Maybe I should not have..

Possibly . I should direct my words to his method instead though .

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Yes, you chose your words wrongly.

Fari enough .

[pandora]

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And you need a text after this ?! :


The message came with prophet Muhammad peace upon him , but it's a given that the message is from Allah .

What context is this message received please? I ask in case I have read this wrong in the Quran or misunderstood the occasion.

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Is is just me or are you hinting at something ?

Hinting at??

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Other thread ? If I remember correctly , I said I'm not an expert and that's why I leave it to someone who knows better . All I've been doing this whole time is explain our belief . And time after time , I've been saying that presenting one's belief is different from discussing proof of it .

Well, you have proof or no.. If you have show it if not don't say you have. Or were you not meaning to imply you had proof? I have come to the conclusion that there is no proof so I'm not doing any breath holding exercise awaiting the outcome. All I have been doing is trying to explain my faith which is nothing like how you perceive it to be. Funny.... How "proof" seems to be the requirement for Christians to produce on demand.. Explanations for a personal perspective not being good enough.. Yet you (by you.. I mean in collective terms not personal) see it ok to present YOUR understanding of our faith and expect us to accept that without a qualm!!! Why is it so hard to accept that when it comes to Christianity you may not know as much as a Christian? That's what concerns me.. Muslims reject Christianity as false based on misconceptions and untruths.. So you do not know what it is you reject. I've said it before.. It's a gift freely given and reject it as you will .. But first understand what it is you reject.

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Which I've een saying for nearly two months !

mercy me.. Has it been that long already.. !!! :))

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Am I misunderstanding or are you saying deeds are meaningless and all that you should have is "love" ? Indeed , Islam teaches us that one's work isn't enough , but it is the mercy and justice of Allah :

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger () as saying:
There is none whose deeds alone can'secure salvation for him. They said: Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that, the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me.

And for the record , that was before the revelation that the prophet peace upon him would enter paradise . Just to clear things up .

Yes.. When it comes to salvation our deeds are not counted as rewards or penalties. We are saved by grace alone. Which does not mean good deeds are not an important part of our faith.. They are.. But we do them out of love of God. There is a danger of good deeds being a source of pride, which is a sin. Jesus said ~

2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

There is no obligation upon us, except that is out of love and a desire to please God. Very often people get this wrong.. Making a big show of their charitable deeds thus taking the glory for themselves when the glory is to God alone.

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Then why the sudden change of tone each time I mention OUR belief about the people of book ?

I'm not aware of this change of tone. I guess it's a cause for some sadness to me that despite explaining my faith as I see it muslims still seek to impose their misconceptions about my faith and at times have the audacity to tell me what I actually believe!!! Contrary to what I know I believe. It's a conundrum for sure.. It doesn't cause me to anger though.. lol..

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Come again ? Where did I show disrespect toward a prophet of Allah ?

Maybe a poor choice of words here... Which for a wordsmith like yours truly is a bit of a faux pas.. Lol.. I was meaning collectively.. Not you personally. For the record every time you refer to Jesus as "Son of Mary" it is an insult upon His person and one for a Christian is hard to hear. I know you do not see this, and indeed why should you? But.. According to our belief we would never ever refer to Jesus in this manner. I think I have already explained why on another thread somewhere at some time.

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And WHO on Earth told you that the WHOLE message was altered ? I said a number of times that we believe there is remaining truth that hasn't been altered . That includes what agrees with Islam . And again , that's our belief .

Makes no difference weather it's the whole or part.. If one bit you think is corrupted then the whole work is suspect. How can you trust that the bits in the Quran were not changed.. Just by being in the Quran?

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I did say I'll leave it to someone who knows better but I'll just provide my opinion since you dived into the subject . Based on my humble knowledge , there are pastors - and whatever other ranks there are - who admit the original scripture is lost . The reason is the method of narrating the Bible which doesn't match with what you wrote . So , I'll read further into it .

so if the original (we refer to them as autographs) are no longer in existence due to age and the fragility of the materials used does that automatically mean that the copies made were not accurate? How to prove that?

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You gotta be kidding me . Do you realize that the movement of translation to Arabic hasn't begun until centuries after the prophet peace upon him ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_Movement

Kid you not... The Gospels and the Torah as we have them today were in widespread use hundreds of years before Prophet Mohammed. Are you saying there were no Arabic speaking Jews or Christians at that time in Arabia? How on earth did they trade and interact? Besides which given that committing scripture to writing was long and laborious work it was for the most part transmitted orally. As was I believe the Quran.

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Bukhari is the most accurate and is the most truthful of the books after the book of Allah . Still , there's a number of weak narrations in it . It isn't authnetic because it's Bukhari , it's authnetic because it's the most authnetic .

As for teh narration , I did tell you that this man "Waraqah" passed away shortly after the revelation . Islam was revealed on the span of 23 years . And let's not forget that the life of the prophet peace upon him after the revelation is recorded in details . Pagans made the claim he is taught so by someone , but they could never back their empty claims up or tell who this imaginary person telling him things is . Further more , isn't it strange that someone teaches him and then remains silent when he claims he recieves revelation ? That , along with so many other paradoxes deny the possibility that Islam quoted from someone . The reasons for similarities is that they are facts which haven't been altered or hid . It's unreasonable to think that Islam should differ 100% from other religions to say it's from the almighty , especially when it states that they are revelations as well .

I never once said anyone was teaching prophet Mohammed or feeding him information.. I simply said the possibility that he heard stories from Jews and Christians that he could have met... And we know for sure he did meet both Jews and Christians on occasions. So I'm just saying it can't be ruled out as a possibility. Islam was quoted from a spirit believed to be Gabriel was it not? I never have heard that Prophet Mohammed received his revelation any other way. The Bible says it was Gabriel that brought the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.. So I have some issues with the same angel bringing a different message 600 years later. As Angels.. At least those that form the heavenly host, do not lie and act according to Gods will.

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Maybe it's indeed from the original scripture but the people of the book hid it , like talking in craddle and creating birds from clay with the will of Allah . You shouldn't rule it out as a possibility , right ? Again , that's our belief .

Well, evidence we have shows it can be ruled out as a possibility. Besides from which either miracle you mention has little meaning attached. The clay birds is particularly problematic I should think from an Islamic point of view. You could google Gnostic gospels .. "The infancy Gospel of Thomas" and see why it was not accepted as authentic. However, as you say.. It's your belief and you are happy with it. That's fine then.

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Wait what ? The point was it is impossible for Waraqah to have "taught" the prophet this religion . Or maybe you say he talked to him from teh grave ?

where did I make this claim that he was taught anything by anyone??? I raised the point that as prophet Mohammed had contact with both Christians and Jews during his life... Possibly before during or after his revelation.. Makes no difference when. It can't be ruled out that accounts in the Quran that have roots in Jewish writings but not in scripture could have had some influence. I'm not saying it was so... Just that if the possibility exists it can't be ruled out totally. This is not an issue for you.. But I hope you can understand why it raises questions for Christians and Jews.

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Peace and blessings to you.