Quote
Quote Originally Posted by M.Khaled View Post
Hi Pandora,
Well, for me I see that the Quran is clear concerning that the offered son is Ishmael when we look at its context in the right way, your concern that the Quran is not chronologically in order is regarding the whole Quran, but we are talking here about the order inside one story not through the whole Quran, which is represented in about 15 verses talking about the story of Abraham when he faced his people in Ur Cheldan then he had a son and the story of sacrifice occurred then he had Isaac, for sure the story of sacrifice is pointing to Ishmael as Isaac wasn't born yet. As for your question regarding the Sunna, if the hadith was proven to be true from the Isnad, then it is taken as the Quran. The difference between the Quran and the Sunna is the same as the difference between general constitution and detailed law. Both are important.
You are free to see what you wish in the Quran as it is your respected Holy Book. However, the Bible gives a different account and it is abundantly clear Isaac was always the child of promise.. And it was through Isaac that Gods covenant is passed. It is also very clear why it had to be Isaac. Maybe we should discuss the various covenants sometime... Because I am not sure God ever did make a covenant with the Muslims.. Rather muslims see themselves grafted onto the Abrahamic covenant through Ishmael. You have your own reasons to prefer it to be Ishmael I think.. Even though the Quran itself does not confirm this fact by naming the child of sacrifice. On a matter of such importance do you not think Allah would have given a definitive answer to this question? Given the implications. I really see this exercise as yet another way to negate Jesus.
I bow to your knowledge in regards to the Quran and Sunna.

Quote
Actually I quoted the Christian arguments you gave below and answered them:
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seedafter thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt me and you. Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner that is not of thy seed. Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
So it clearly tells that the sign of this covenant is circumcision, this covenant is everlasting and that the one who don’t circumcise breaks God’s covenant, which Muslims already do while according to Christians , Paul cancelled circumcision.


Yes.. But read it carefully...this refers to Abraham and his direct descendants through the covenant. This circumcision never applied to Gentiles... Who were later grafted on to the spiritual family of Abraham through Jesus. So it had nothing to do with Paul cancelling circumcision. Besides which muslims have already broken this covenant.. I don't believe the Quran actually says anything about boys being circumcised on the eighth day .. Which is a covenant condition. It's not just the fact that a male is circumcised but it should be done on the eighth day. Or maybe you feel you can make adjustments accordingly to Gods Covenant?
God said of Ishmael in the Bible... “A wild donkey of a man, and his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him, and he will dwell (settle, encamp) in the presence (“in the face”) of his brothers.” .... Did God see Ishmael as a suitable candidate to carry His covenant? It does not seem so.

Quote
Other might say that the covenant is with Isaac only as it says:
Quote
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Well, this was in the beginning, then it was transferred to Ishmael’s descendants, and that’s what is told in the New Testament when Jesus said to the Jews that the kingdom of God shall be taken away from them:
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Calling Ishmael as a fruitful, and have a great nation is very clear in praising him, otherwise, if God knew that a false prophet came from his descendants where a great nation followed him, why did He describe this nation as great?
Besides the Bible tells in another part:
Gen 12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.


It was never transferred to Ishmael or his descendants. This is wishful thinking on your parts. You cannot take your misunderstanding of Matthew 21:43 as proof of this. This parable referred to Jesus. The Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews but here Jesus teaches that it is His followers that shall inherit that Kingdom... Not the muslims.. the bringing forth of fruits is in connection to the parable Jesus is the cornerstone in this verse. The fact that God promised Ishmael would be fruitful is coincidental.. When referred to Ishmael the meaning was fruitful and multiply in numbers.

Quote
We Muslims bless Abraham everyday in our prayer. At the end of every prayer, a Muslim must say:
Quote
“All the compliments, prayers and good things are due to Allah; peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s Mercy and Blessings be upon you. Peace be on us and on the true pious devotees of Allah. I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and I also testify that Muhammad is His slave and His Messenger. O Allah! send your Salat (Blessings, Graces, Honors and Mercy) on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Salat on Abraham and the family of Abraham. O Allah! Send Your Blessings on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Blessings on Abraham and the family of Abraham. You are Praiseworthy, Most Gracious.”
So if Muslims bless Abraham, the Bible says that God blesses who bless him, how come that the followers of a false prophet be blessed?


Its good that you bless Abraham I'm sure God will look with kindness on that fact. However that still does not have any baring on the fact that Ishmael was not the child of promise.. It was always Isaac.

Peace.