Evidence of prophecy

[pandora]

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Dear Pandora,

this tells me that you don’t know much about the Bible :) . It’s ok, this forum will be a good opportunity to learn :). "Jesus own claims"? Jesus never called himself the son of God in the Bible. Find one verse where Jesus says “I am the son of God” You can’t! There is NONE!!!

Greetings Sarah, first off, just to say being patronising will get you nowhere.. :) in order to understand what Jesus claimed, you have to know Jesus through His mission. You will not find this in the Quran, because Isa of the Quran is a pale imitation of Jesus... Has none of His charisma or qualities. There are many ways making a declaration of something than just coming out with a bold claim or direct statement. A selection of verses for your perusal.. If you check the web site link you can view the verses in more detail.. Or not as you prefer.

Does Jesus in fact say that He is God’s Son, not just infer it?


Mark says it at the outset of his gospel (1:1).


The angel told Mary her child would be the Son of God (Luke 1:35).... (Btw .. This was Gabriel.. The very same angel that brought Mohammed his revelation.. Are we to assume that this Angel of The Lord is a liar and deceiver? )


John the Baptist said the same thing (John 1:34).


Nathanael said it (John 1:49).


Martha believed it (John 11:27).


The centurion said so (Matthew 27:54).


Jesus claimed that He said so (John 10:36).


Jesus clearly implies it in John 11:4.


The demons called Jesus the Son of God (Matthew 8:29; Luke 4:41; Mark 3:11).


The charge against Jesus was that He claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:43; John 19:7), a claim He never denied, and virtually admitted (Luke 22:70).


The Gospel of John was written to convince the reader that Jesus was the Son of God (John 20:31).


Why, you might ask, does Jesus not say so plainly. I think the answer is found in Matthew 16:15-17: ... (I think I like this one best.. :) )


15 He said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:15-17).


Jesus did not want Peter and His disciples to believe He was the Son of God just because He said so. He wanted God to bring them to this conclusion, based upon the overwhelming evidence of Scripture and our Lord’s life and teaching.

https://bible.org/question/does-jesu...-just-infer-it

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Also Jesus in the Bible tells us that his father is also our father, :
[John 20:17] Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'

and.. ? Your point is? Jesus taught that through Him we are adopted into Gods "family". We are all sons and daughters of God. Not slaves like you.. ;)

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Now

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let us check about the word “begotten” .
You say: “begotten as it implies the term here is not how the term begotten is understood in the Bible.” Here I bring you information from the dictionary for what does the word “begotten” mean:

Adj. 1. begotten - (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child".

I hope you realize how wrong and blasphemous is to use this word. The Greek word, from which this was translated is “monogenes” and it means, one kind, special unique etc. This word “monogenes” is used in other verses in the Bible such as in Hebrews 11:17 where Abraham’s son is mentioned. Abraham had two sons and if we were to translate the word “monogenes” that is used here to “begotten” we can see it doesn’t make sense because Abraham had two sons. The correct translation is “unique"or "one kind", meaning unique in a way. Jesus may peace be upon him was unique in many ways, one of those is that he was created without a father and also he will come back again before the judgment day etc.

May Allah guide you :)

It's good that you have brought this up.. Begotten and monogenes .. "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is usually translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten." It's the "only begotten" translation that gives the wrong impression that Jesus was begotten in the human sense of procreation.. When it is very clear that no one ever thought it meant this.. As that would not have been construed from the term "monogenes". You could ask yourself why the Quran admonishes Christians of the time for believing Jesus was " begotten" when they certainly would not have inferred that idea from the scriptures. They would have inferred from the term monogenes the uniqueness of Jesus in that their was no one like unto Him.
In early Christian Literature, monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." You are correct in your information about is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son". Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. So it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.


The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John, which was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption. Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.

You are correct when you say Jesus was unique in many ways.. Where you are maybe in error is that you don't ask the important question... Why? Why was only Jesus out of all the prophets unique? Could it be He was the promised Messiah? The one sent to redeem mankind and correct the fall of Adam.. So making us once more right before God.. I believe He was... Jesus was everything He said He was. Never a lie was found on His lips, do you think He would have accepted worship as God and let people believe He shared a unique relationship with God if it were not so?

May God guide you.

[sarah_]

Pandora,

Jesus identified himself as a son of man, others called him the son of God. In The verses you have brought, others call him the son of God. You said Jesus himself claimed to be the son of God, but he didn’t.

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and.. ? Your point is? Jesus taught that through Him we are adopted into Gods "family". We are all sons and daughters of God. Not slaves like you.. ;)

In the Bible, not only other people are called slaves of God, but also prophets including Jesus are called slaves of God. The Hebrew word from which the Bible was translated is "ebed" which really means "slave"; but the English Bible renders it " servant” an expression of humility used by the righteous before God.
Investigating the manuscrpts we find this words in greek “pais” and “huios” which sometimes are translated to “son” which derive from the Hebrew word “ebed” -according to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, which meaning is slave or servant.
This same word has been translated to “servant” in some verses, while it has been translated to “son” in other verses. They have the same connotation which means, righteous before God.

[pandora]

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Pandora,

Jesus identified himself as a son of man, others called him the son of God. In The verses you have brought, others call him the son of God. You said Jesus himself claimed to be the son of God, but he didn’t.

He did..also in all the many Bible verses that imply Jesus was the Son of God... All the times He was directly addressed as such.. not once is it recorded that Jesus ever said He wasn't the Son of God or denied it. Do you not think if Jesus was the sinless being He is widely believed to be He would have put the record straight on this point? The common understanding is that "Son of God" implies his deity ... which it does ... and that "Son of Man" implies his humanity, which it does. He was a son of man, that is, a human being. And he is the Son of God, in that he has always existed as the Eternally Begotten One who comes forth from the Father forever. He always has, and he always will. Begotten in this instance has nothing to do with the act of procreation.

~15 He said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:15-17).~

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In the Bible, not only other people are called slaves of God, but also prophets including Jesus are called slaves of God. The Hebrew word from which the Bible was translated is "ebed" which really means "slave"; but the English Bible renders it " servant” an expression of humility used by the righteous before God.

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Investigating the manuscrpts we find this words in greek “pais” and “huios” which sometimes are translated to “son” which derive from the Hebrew word “ebed” -according to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, which meaning is slave or servant.
This same word has been translated to “servant” in some verses, while it has been translated to “son” in other verses. They have the same connotation which means, righteous before God.

Interesting points, generally when the term "ebed" is used in the Old Testament it refers to servant, there are occasions when it is used to convey the meaning of slave. So I guess it's how you distinguish between slave and servant. A slave I always feel is under another persons obligation.. Whereas a Servant is one who serves willingly usually with some recompense. In terms of obedience before God then either option works. So I don't see this as a big deal particularly. However, saying that I do find the term slave has unpleasant overtones if you view how slavery is viewed in today's world.

I can find no evidence to show the term "Huios" is derived from "ebed". Huios is universally used in the New Testament to mean "Son". Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here?

Peace

[sarah_]

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It's good that you have brought this up.. Begotten and monogenes .. "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is usually translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten." It's the "only begotten" translation that gives the wrong impression that Jesus was begotten in the human sense of procreation.. When it is very clear that no one ever thought it meant this.. As that would not have been construed from the term "monogenes". You could ask yourself why the Quran admonishes Christians of the time for believing Jesus was " begotten" when they certainly would not have inferred that idea from the scriptures. They would have inferred from the term monogenes the uniqueness of Jesus in that their was no one like unto Him.
In early Christian Literature, monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." You are correct in your information about is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son". Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. So it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.


The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John, which was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption. Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.

You are correct when you say Jesus was unique in many ways.. Where you are maybe in error is that you don't ask the important question... Why? Why was only Jesus out of all the prophets unique? Could it be He was the promised Messiah? The one sent to redeem mankind and correct the fall of Adam.. So making us once more right before God.. I believe He was... Jesus was everything He said He was. Never a lie was found on His lips, do you think He would have accepted worship as God and let people believe He shared a unique relationship with God if it were not so?

Again the word “begotten” is wrong and blasphemous and it is not to be used.
The word “begotten” for ancient Greek is “GENNAO”, and the correct translation of the word “MONOGENES” is “unique”. The word “begotten” has been removed from Christian scholars of highest eminence, as it had been detected as a mistranslated word. Other more honest translations of the Bible have removed this word along with some other serious errors found in the King James Version!
And I’ve explained earlier why is Jesus referred to “unique” or “one kind” in this verse. It’s because he was created miraculously without a father.
Jesus did not accept worship as God. To this question and some other questions you have made will continue in another thread.

[pandora]

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Again the word “begotten” is wrong and blasphemous and it is not to be used.
The word “begotten” for ancient Greek is “GENNAO”, and the correct translation of the word “MONOGENES” is “unique”. The word “begotten” has been removed from Christian scholars of highest eminence, as it had been detected as a mistranslated word. Other more honest translations of the Bible have removed this word along with some other serious errors found in the King James Version!
And I’ve explained earlier why is Jesus referred to “unique” or “one kind” in this verse. It’s because he was created miraculously without a father.
Jesus did not accept worship as God. To this question and some other questions you have made will continue in another thread.

Sarah, Did you even read what I said? It is only muslims when using the term begotten in relation to the birth of Jesus who are committing blasphemy. Because it is the Quran and not the Bible that interprets "begotten" to imply the act of procreation in human terms. Christians have always believed it refers to the uniqueness of Jesus. As in "monogenes". Gennao refers to production through birth when referred to the woman. As the mans role was not involved in the creation of Jesus then only this meaning is applicable.

Honestly, a tip for you. Do not use the King James Version..at least not the original version if you have to use it at all choose the revised version. King James no doubt meant well, but there are many textual errors.. Hence why it's been revised :) you should cross reference with other translations if you wish to compare. I doubt you would find any great degree of difference in the central message. Which is what Gods word is about.. The message.. And that is something that cannot be corrupted by the hands of men. I know that because God makes that claim.

You say the reason Jesus was unique was being created miraculously without a father. Really? Is that the only reason you can see? You totally miss the point, and I can understand why because the Quran does not explain it to you. The point is WHY? Mankind had been witness to Gods greatness through miracles for a millennium before the Birth of Jesus. There was no need for the Messiah to be born this way just to offer another miracle to mankind. The reason is deeper than that. God could have created Jesus in the way of Adam.. With no mother or father!! Would that have seemed a greater miracle if a miracle was needed? But the need for a human mother was required.

You are asking the wrong questions.. As muslims you are so intent on tearing down the previous scriptures because they do not agree with the Quran.. For the only way the Quran can stand by its claims is if the previous scriptures were in error. As the Quran claims the words of God cannot be changed whilst at the same time acknowledging the previous scriptures as from God then claiming they were changed by men.. It seemingly contradicts itself. You cannot prove the previous scriptures were ever changed.. So I really don't know where that leaves you. You get tied up with the minutiae of textual Biblical errors and minor details whilst choosing to ignore the bigger picture. Don't forget the devil is in the detail.

If I were to ask you what is the main aim and objective of Satan? What would your answer be?

Peace.

[Burninglight]

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Sarah, Did you even read what I said? It is only muslims when using the term begotten in relation to the birth of Jesus who are committing blasphemy. Because it is the Quran and not the Bible that interprets "begotten" to imply the act of procreation in human terms. Christians have always believed it refers to the uniqueness of Jesus. As in "monogenes". Gennao refers to production through birth when referred to the woman. As the mans role was not involved in the creation of Jesus then only this meaning is applicable.

Honestly, a tip for you. Do not use the King James Version..at least not the original version if you have to use it at all choose the revised version. King James no doubt meant well, but there are many textual errors.. Hence why it's been revised :) you should cross reference with other translations if you wish to compare. I doubt you would find any great degree of difference in the central message. Which is what Gods word is about.. The message.. And that is something that cannot be corrupted by the hands of men. I know that because God makes that claim.

You say the reason Jesus was unique was being created miraculously without a father. Really? Is that the only reason you can see? You totally miss the point, and I can understand why because the Quran does not explain it to you. The point is WHY? Mankind had been witness to Gods greatness through miracles for a millennium before the Birth of Jesus. There was no need for the Messiah to be born this way just to offer another miracle to mankind. The reason is deeper than that. God could have created Jesus in the way of Adam.. With no mother or father!! Would that have seemed a greater miracle if a miracle was needed? But the need for a human mother was required.

You are asking the wrong questions.. As muslims you are so intent on tearing down the previous scriptures because they do not agree with the Quran.. For the only way the Quran can stand by its claims is if the previous scriptures were in error. As the Quran claims the words of God cannot be changed whilst at the same time acknowledging the previous scriptures as from God then claiming they were changed by men.. It seemingly contradicts itself. You cannot prove the previous scriptures were ever changed.. So I really don't know where that leaves you. You get tied up with the minutiae of textual Biblical errors and minor details whilst choosing to ignore the bigger picture. Don't forget the devil is in the detail.

If I were to ask you what is the main aim and objective of Satan? What would your answer be?

Peace.

This is an excellent post. It is interesting to note that no Muslim on the forum have been able to gainsay that the virgin birth of Jesus was borrowed from our NT Bible by Muhammad. He probably learned of it through oral tradition. There is no other place that story was recorded ever before Muhammad's Quran came on the seen. The irony is he rejected the reason for Jesus virgin birth, but accepted Jesus was born of a virgin. That is why Muslim don't have a reason for why Jesus had to have been born of a virgin.

Muhammad could have done more damage to Christianity if he had denied the virgin birth instead of the death and resurrection of Jesus, because if Jesus wasn't virgin born, his death would've been useless. Muhammad didn't understand Christianity and neither did his god. These misconceptions are, IMHO, apparent discrepancies in Muhammad's Quran.

I will say, however, even though Muhammad was unread, he was very intelligent and creative. Had he dug or research a little further he would have own that Christians never considered Allah (God the father) the third of three nor did Christians ever believe Mary was God which would have to have made her one of the three Allah said say not three about.

Too many misconception for a supposedly all knowing god. My comments here prove to me that Muhammad's Quran is contrived and what further lends to it is how Allah abrogates verses to bring one better or like. That is ridiculous. God gets it right the first time, and He never has to change or modify it. That is what humans do. Man does that he has to edit his work, because he doesn't get it right a first. I see the work of a man in the Quran.

God bless you