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Quote Originally Posted by pandora View Post
I'm sure the fault is mine, but I am not sure of the point you are making here? Are you saying the Pharisees are the sinners because of their actions in calling for the death of Jesus? On that basis they should be offering atonement for their sin? I fail to see what that has to do the Jesus' sacrifice as the lamb of God for all mankind. Do you believe then that Jesus went to His death unknowing and unwillingly? Yet... The scriptures do not agree with this and Jesus said Himself why He was sent by the God the Father. At least I am pleased to hear you believe we share the same God. That you perceive this God differently is not an issue for me, as we each follow our respective scriptures which the same ONE God has revealed to us.
Well, as I said before, the intention of Jesus whether he went there willingly or unwillingly has nothing to do with the atonement being applied or not as the action was made by the Jews not by Jesus, so what I am concerned with is the intention of the Jews not the sinner, when the OT was talking about atonement it said it is by the sinner who makes it for his sin to be forgiven not that some people murdered a man and the intention of that man is to let the people kill him to forgive people's sin. This is a complete distortion of the atonement concept in the OT.

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The prophets from Abraham onwards all believed God decreed for them a blood atonement for sin. Is it our place to question how Almighty God decides on how best to make us once again righteous after our fall from grace? Christians see the atoning death of the Christ as the greatest act of agape love that God has shown His creation... For through this we are granted eternal life.. The other option is to remain dead in our sins, which is no option at all worth consideration.
Well, neither in Islam did it say that this is the only way, my trusted source is the Quran not the Bible, and even if we looked at the OT, it talked about sins being forgiven without the need to make atonement:
Eze 18:21But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
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Jesus has brought glory to God by finishing the work God gave Him to do... Which was bringing souls to God. Finally.. Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him as He was glorified with God from before the world began.. As Gods eternal Word.
Well, this is for sure against Jesus' will:
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus clearly admits that the cup is not his will but the Father's will. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful? Why would he keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him? If Jesus was supposed to be waiting for that moment, why would he ask God to get it away?
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So do you accept that atonement was required? Your issue is more with who does the atoning. I guess as a Christian on this point I have to go with what my God (that is my view of OUR God ;) ) has decreed on the matter as per the Bible, both Old and New Testament.
Well, according to what I see, the crucifixion issue can't be applied as an atonement based on the OT standards as I explained above, but I see that you are just trying to manipulate with some events in a specific direction and I see these events not matching with each other.
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if you were the victim of a crime and the judge showing mercy let the perpetrator off would you feel you had received justice? Or would you prefer that the perpetrator were punished in some way. To be just one has to be fair to all.. Stands to reason that any sin against God has to carry a penalty... A penalty has to be paid for by someone.
Now we have 2 types of sins:
1. A sin against God as adultery or getting drunk for example, in this case, when God forgives this sin without atonement, how could this be against God's justice?
2. A sin against human as insult, murder, steal, rape, etc. For God to forgive this sin, the man whom the sin was made against must be forgiven otherwise the sinner must be punished. If you are talking about justice being applied by God sacrificing himself then actually this is against God's justice, because the punishment should be against a sinner not anyone else. If my brother was murdered, I will not feel that justice is applied when I see another guy hanged instead of the murdered. This is against God's justice, because in this point it is a sin not against God, but the guy who was sinned against has the right to see the sinner punished not someone else.

Have a nice day :)